TomTheDP

1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

What? How is that an issue? Every hybrid runs the sensor at 12-bit linear. You have to get into Canon DGO, ALEV, or a real cine cam to get anything better.

I am not saying it's an issue, just a reality. 12 bit linear RAW gives a similar amount of information as 10 bit log. This is why I assume people aren't seeing a difference when shooting linear 12 bit over the internal 10 bit on the S1H. Bitrate could still be an issue as 150-200mbps these H265/H264 codecs are doing isn't a lot of data to work with. 

 The Fuji XH2s does 14 bit ADC when shooting 4k up to 30fps. I am not quite sure on Blackmagic cameras. The URSA 4.6K had a similar dual gain sensor as the Alexa but I don't know if the color depth was the same. 

Atomos claims this about their recorders with the A7S3/FX3
"The Ninja V captures tremendous detail with 12-bit log files with over 68 billion color graduations! This is converted from the camera’s 16-bit linear RAW output. This process has the advantage of being visually indistinguishable from 16-bit Linear recording, while still having practical data rates."

Obviously the good old 5D MK3 does 14 bit with magic lantern, if that counts. 

ARRI does this with their cameras, they package 14 bit into a 12 bit log as there is really no benefit to 14 bit linear over 12 bit log, at least according to them. 

1 hour ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I’ve found this to be true (as many likely have,) by having and then ditching a Blackmagic camera. I had a GH5S, which was 10-bit, and quite good, but the P4K seemed definitely better. Then as I used the raw, I learned more about how to properly utilize ACES and color manage my workflow. When I applied that kind of workflow to the GH5S, the differences lessened to one of dynamic range more than anything else, so when the S1H was out and tested with market leading dynamic range and full V-Log, I sold both of the other cameras, and never looked back. 
 

The S1H V-Log is a thicker neg than the P4K has, even if the P4K is “raw,” and the S1H is not. It’s also why I’ve avoided external “raw” recorders for the S1H, it’s borderline snake oil, you don’t get any benefit from it. The color fidelity of 10-bit wrapped 12-bit is plenty if the codec and bitrate are healthy. The only reason I want to see sensors start running at higher than 12-bit (or DGO implementation) is for the bump in DR. 
 

Low level noise as looked at here is really where the truth resides. I can look at my S1H footage in this way, and there’s definitely some NR going on to wrangle the shadow detail, but the end result is also pleasing, so I’ll take it. Clean organic shadow detail like people long for will always be the territory of ALEV level sensors, and the prosumer cams will always be using a few little tricks to go that “last mile” to a cinematic image. But if they’re good at the tricks, is the minor difference worth the major difference in price? For most, probably not. 
 

As always, EOSHD peels back the layers of chaff to take a close look at what’s really going on under the hood of these cameras.

Thanks Andrew!

I think one of the issues is the S1H I believe only does 12 bit linear out. This really shouldn't give much benefit over 10 bit log. If it was 14-16 bit RAW you'd probably notice more of a difference. 

I think an advantage of RAW is if you are using different cameras on one project and or using Final cut or Premiere which don't really have ACES options. 

Very odd. I'd definitely be interested in how the Sigma FP-L in 12 bit compares to the Sony. 

5 minutes ago, Django said:

Actually according to CineD, S1 has about 12 stops and C70 is closer to 13. Also according to them, S1 uses aggressive NR (even when set to -5) to achieve such results. While C70 has virtually no NR with that score. Something extra to consider when comparing metrics.

Also, the nice thing about how the DGO sensor works on C70 is very clean shadow information. So low shadow noise, high DR with pleasant roll-off. That's a dream type of sensor for me personally. I'll also take that over dual gain ISO any day.

The S1H lost that aggressive NR in later firmware, the GH5 had similar issue at first. The S1 never had the aggressive NR though, probably one of the better cameras in terms of an organic NR free image, it was rated at 12.2 stops. The C70 in RAW is 12.3 stops, which is very close to what the S1 is doing.

 Of course the S1 may have less dynamic range in RAW due to the likely less processing going on. But from using both cameras on projects the S1 seems to hold highlights better while the while the C70 is better in shadows. But I know people have noticed the C70 in 10 bit is doing a lot of processing, which is why I assume the dynamic range in RAW is less. 

57 minutes ago, Django said:

Not that easy. The Alexa ALEV sensor still holds a lot of secrets. I think Canon are the ones getting close with the DGO sensor inside C70.

 

BM have great CS resources via DaVinci RS. But even they keep trying to improve their CS, now at Gen5.

Ok, I think you meant to quote @ade towell I never spoke on that particular comparison.

yeah meant to quote abe. 

In terms of the the DGO sensors it is cool to see. Apparently the URSA mini 4.6k was DGO as well. 

The only thing is the C70 and also the GH6 don't seem to have more dynamic range than say the S1's non DGO full frame sensor. I am curious to see if we'll get a full frame DGO sensor from someone. I kind of prefer single ISO sensors to dual for whatever reason. 

12 minutes ago, Django said:

Huh? How so? Complimenting Panny IQ doesn't mean speaking bad on Canon.

I never liked using S35 4K mode on the S1 as it always looked softer and noisier, especially above 800 iso. It is just surprising the Canon in FF 4k mode looks worse. 

16 minutes ago, Django said:

That is a possibility but matching footage from different brands is something I'd rather avoid, even though using EF glass on both platforms should make things bit more consistent. (however color science and overall image processing would still differ).

Yeah I mean the S5ii footage hyalinejim provided also convinces me that the 4K footage looks indeed super clean, with a very pleasing organic look. Even though it's only shot with Tamron zoom. Pretty impressive. 

I would of course be curious to see footage with same EF-L glass shot on R6 vs S5ii for a more definitive comparison.

Man that speaks really badly for the Canon. 

Just to contribute to this resurrected thread, here is my Alexa Classic on a music video recently. Heavy but beautiful image. 

6 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

It's only because we're camera nerds that we care. Recently, I've noticed so many Hollywood films with blatent focusing mistakes.

Especially older films when it was all film. It is definitely less common these days but I have seen it, I think there was an out of focus shot that was very noticeable in the last Thor film. With super shallow DOF tracking long takes some soft focus is definitely common. 

I suppose its a little more critical for short form social media stuff as every shot is more apparent. Or maybe it matters less as such content is usually so short lived. 

7 minutes ago, Django said:

I did actually try CST with those settings but to be honest was not enchanted by those results. It's all very subjective of course, and I'm not necessarily looking for complete accuracy when grading, although its probably a good place to start so I'll test that further. 

I think Sony was voted most accurate color science in recent cross-platform tests. Yet in reality they are ironically often the most disliked! Reality isn't always that pretty 😉 

Most people like Sony these days though. But another thing is mixed lighting conditions, which is where a lot of cameras struggle. I think one thing higher end cameras are known for at least in the cinema realm is maintaining pleasing skin tones while also maintaining color accuracy. 

Film stocks definitely give a pretty stylized look though and everyone is using film conversion luts these days. 

10 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

I don't think it's intentional.

Even the P4K and P6K and Venice and A7S3III don't match perfectly. 

Must have something to do with the slightly different sensor variations and probably just lack of budget to really do things like make a custom lut for each model.

10 minutes ago, Django said:

Well color science also evolves generation after generation, but the same old LUTs often remain. 

Saturated reds is something Leica is famous for so I wonder if this is their influence. It seems like their CS is closer than ever to Panasonics now with L2 image processing.

Why would they not release a new lut after intentionally changing the color science though.

It's very interesting how color differs from the lower end to higher end cameras. Even from S1 to EVA1 to Varicam. Is this carelessness or further market segmentation. 

21 hours ago, Michael S said:

When people say you must overexpose vlog by 2 stops, they mean the exposure meter must say +2. The reason for this is that the exposure meter assumes a standard gamma curve and not a log curve. As mid gray on a log curve sits two stops above mid gray compared to a normal gamma curve, the exposure meter must say +2. In my opinion this is a user interface design error from Panasonic which only leads to confusion. So the proper answer is that you must expose correctly, and therefore ignore the exposure meter when shooting in vlog. Use the spot meter (which switches to EI in vlog) or waveform. Spot meter must say +0 EI and mid gray on the waveform sits on 42%.

Very interesting. Very bizarre mistake by Panasonic if that is the case with the S1. 

The GH6 needs PDAF. 

Looks like the improvement on the lower end models is pretty significant but falls off with the higher end M1 models. 

I think I'd pick 35mm on both S35 and full frame sensors. Just always tend to grab that lens. 

I have seen amazing deals on used M1 Macs. You can often save 75% sometimes even 50%. Tech devalues so fast it is crazy. 

I had a RED Scarlet MX for a while. My Panasonic S1 had better highlight retention. The MX was noisy but the shadows were richer. Now comparing it against the S1 in RAW might be a little different. I do really like RED and ARRI's color compared to other cheaper cameras I have used. They just hold shadow color so much nicer at least to my eyes. 

Pitting it against the C70 with RAW might start really skewing things against the MX. 

I have used the RED Epic Dragon quite a bit and that guy is definitely a real winner in almost every category except high ISO. Modern cameras are definitely a bit more versatile due to their high ISO capabilities. But if you have a bit of light to work with and aren't shooting any landscapes at night, cinema cameras definitely look better IMO. 

In any given side by side you might not notice, but for example working with a sigma FP and ARRI ALEXA side by side on a feature where I have a ton of footage from both cameras, I am really seeing how much easier the ARRI is to deal with. 

21 hours ago, markr041 said:

We understand the gain from ettr, I am just pointing out it comes with a cost, which is reduced dynamic range. The point is that overexposing is not always the best procedure, sometimes especially in a high contrast situation because of the reduced dr. One has to experiment, and results will also vary by camera.

It's my advice after years of owning and using the camera over many projects. For weddings there isn't a lot of time to deliberate on precise exposure, especially since REC709 monitoring is trash on Panasonic. Unless you are doing a silhouette shot it is what I would advise. I don't think I have ever been let down using this method. 

If you are used to shooting and exposing for the rec709 profiles on the Lumix I don't think you'll like log at base exposure. Personal preference of course just my advice. 

I personally like dovetail, quick release ones are the best. Pricey though. I don't like VCT. 

1 minute ago, markr041 said:

Doesn't shooting overexposed reduce the dynamic range? It used to be necessary with the older sensors because of noise (shooting Slog2 or Slog3). It is no longer recommended for the newer Sony cameras precisely because it sacrifices dynamic range.

I don't shoot Sony. But I always over expose regardless of camera RED, ARRI, Panasonic, etc.. All cameras generate noise, if you want a clean image you overexpose, same goes for film. On RED or ARRI I just shoot at like 200 iso. ISO on the Panasonic in log is fixed though. 

If you like a bit of noise base exposure works. I personally do like grain so I sometimes will even shoot at say 1600 iso on ARRI to bring that out. For most stuff I assume people want it as clean as possible though. I also just don't think Panasonic looks as nice in the shadows. 

You don't really need to overexpose in very bright conditions but if you in a high contrast or low light situation its great. 

9 hours ago, MrSMW said:

This is my next project.

I used to shoot the Natural profile before switching to Flat last year.

Now we are getting decent AF, I don’t need to make the same workaround choices (shooting more contrasty than log profiles, APSC crop, smaller apertures) so am intending shooting log this year mainly for the increased DR.

I will probably just stick with using FilmConvert Nitrate…

My suggestion with LOG is just to expose 1-2 stops over, just using the cameras light meter and then nail WB of course. I like Filmconvert a lot 

22 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

Random colours way too saturated. Really muddy shadows. Waxy skin tones. A simultaneous green and magenta tint to different parts of the image (how is that even possible?). And it always seems kind of hazy, as though there was condensation on the lens the whole time or something.

This is with multiple different cameras and operators, both with log and various colour profiles, across different projects and in different lighting conditions and climates (from San Francisco to Sumatra). The first time I came across S1H footage was as the post supervisor on a series in Hawaii and I honestly thought it was a condensation issue. I was constantly checking his camera for signs of fog, even got him to change filter sets entirely in case that was the issue.

Interesting, I almost exclusively was using emotive colors LUTs as well as over exposing by 2 stops. But yeah it's never been my favorite image straight out of camera. I think I would still give that to Canon. 

7 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Agreed! I went through a phase of wanting one, but I got talked down by an owner who said they loved it but moved on to an Alexa Classic.

I own the Classic. It definitely has the best image in the game in terms of color accuracy and dynamic range. It is also just an industry standard image wise, super hard to mess up in post.

I think the F35 has a more unique image though, almost film like. The Alexa does too but its a cleaner more neutral image. The F35 is also a bit less power hungry and a bit smaller, though possibly more awkward. 

Having simple 12 bit internal recording up to 60p and 120p 10 bit with no cropping is nice on the Alexa Classic though. No external recording required.