TomTheDP

Would be interested to hear your findings with Emotive colors LUT. 

Things like this is why it's nice to shoot ARRI, although like you said simply shooting RAW on any camera would at least give you the data to get you where you want to go without artifacts. 

19 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

To each their own, but S1H has been one of my least favourite images to work with in post. That probably comes down to not enough time spent with it, but that is precisely where the FX6 hammers it - every decent editor/colourist has worked with S-log enough to be able to get a pretty decent image out of it. That matters in professional workflows, and no producer wants to hire a shooter who's going to have their post team scratching their heads or wasting time learning a whole new colour pipeline. Maybe the Panasonic CAN deliver a better image with careful grading, but 19/20 editors will deliver a better result in less time with the FX6.

I agree that FX6 is only ok under $10K, but that's because it's actually playing under $6K now. It's only real competitor is the C70 but that's a big step away ergonomically. Other than that the BMPCC 6K/Z-Cam offer some similar capability but lack the out of the box functionality. It's already at a price point that is pretty hard to undercut.

Just curious what you have found difficult about it? I have never edited the FX6. When using the Panasonic S1 with a C70, C100, and ARRI Alexa, I will say the S1 was my least favorite. It was super noise free compared to the rest but I know the FX6 has that going for it as well.

32 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

Agreed. I would argue for pure image quality at 24-30fps in 4k, the S1H is ahead of the FX6. I think the FX6 is just OK in the under $10k space in terms of IQ - not even in my top 10 cameras (no Sony is). BUT it does do a lot of other things well (favorite form factor, E-ND, 120fps 4k, etc), which might be more important for some jobs. 

But a full-frame, 6k-8k, L-Mount cinema camera that featured the same specs for $5-7k would be very enticing for a lot of people. I like that many new cameras went for just 4k (FX6, FX9, C300 III, C70) as you rarely need more than that, BUT that does leave the door open for someone like Panasonic to leapfrog them to the next level of 6k and 8k, and then to add features like internal ProRes, great 4k downsampled from 8k, etc. If they just put out an EVA-1 with an L-Mount, probably wouldn't move the needle, but a bigger leap would.

END is really amazing and underrated. I think every camera should have it. The other nice thing about the FX6 is the fast sensor readout making for very little rolling shutter. 

But for me an EVA1 style camera, with a full frame sensor shooting up to 60fps at full sensor and 120fps widowed in prores would be perfect. Honestly full sensor 4k 120fps would be great as it would mean the sensor has a very fast readout making for less rolling shutter. But I could settle with a standard S1H speed rolling shutter. 

Something like that for like $3500 would be compelling. It would just be good enough and cheaper than competition to make it a compelling option. 

I do sell on Facebook marketplace a lot. You'll get a ton of scam people contacting you but its obvious when that is the case. 

1 hour ago, angang said:

From what i saw on multiple videos, 4k 120fps have a very big problem with noisy quality. Do you think it is a bug ?

It crops in on the sensor in 4k 120fps, which makes noise larger and less fine. You just have to expose more carefully or over expose a bit. The good thing is that it's still high bitrate, 10 bit so you have that dynamic range and color information to play with. 

10 hours ago, mercer said:

Okay thanks. Do you remember what brand you're using? Also were you doing a lot of starting/stopping when using your Dark Power Labs set up?

I abbe to test the internal recording a bit more... I was hoping I'd like the footage more than I do. Like I said, other than the higher ISO capabilities of the FP, my 5D3 seems to look much nicer than the internal 1080p on the FP. Granted it adds some slow motion options. I think I need to go out and just test the 8bit cDNG. I hate the amount of data it burns through with the cost of SD cards, but it's definitely the most option of the camera.

Yeah the 1080p is hit or miss. It can look very good but sometimes it is just noticeably soft. If it had 4k 60p then it would be a perfect camera for me. It's too bad they can't have like 2:1 compression or 3:1 that would probably open up the possibility of higher frame rates in 4k. 

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

So, I wasn't too clear there, but I saw on the B&H specs page, for the FP, that the native dual-iso, in internal cDNG (8bit 4K & 12bit 1080p) is 100 on the low-end, and 640 for the high. B&H specs aren't always correct, but they usually are. I need to do more research to see if that's the case. I'd imagine the image is still fairly clean regardless, but I am planning on only shooting on the two native ISOs on the FP. YMMV.

I totally agree about ISO 3200... it's one of the best features of the camera... in the woods, even in mid-day, bumping up to 3200 and using ND filtration makes a drastic improvement in overall IQ without the need for extra lighting, and/or reflectors. I love the way the highlights are handled as well. Even a bright sky that's basically blown out has a nice softness to it. 

I love the clean, modern image I'm getting from the FP, and it's small size, but if not for the 3200 ISO feature, I may not even keep the camera. I find my 5D to be an overall nicer shooting experience with only a minimal bump in IQ for the FP. The workflows are actually very similar so it seems like a great in-betweener camera for me when I need higher ISO or where a little extra resolution can be beneficial.

In their marketing Sandisk try and sell that this product is already part of established professional productions and workflows... I think it may be a little hype. But it seems like a cool option.

I'm also looking at the Dark Power Lab option. I almost purchased their basic set up last week, but after looking at the cost and availability of the internal nVME drives, I was a little discouraged. It seems like the size could be outdated soon enough. I also saw on YouTube that they tend to get kinda hot. What brand nVME are you using? It seems Sabrent, Samsung and WD are the only options. I'm very run and gun, so overheating frightens me a little and compatibility is a concern. I may shoot a dozen short shots in as many minutes, and then jump right into a dialogue scene that I'm getting coverage for. I need it to be reliable. Shooting with the Kingston SSD the other day, which is not on Sigma's recommended list, basically made the camera unusable. I haven't had ANY hiccups shooting with my 5D and the ML Raw hack for over 5 years... so having my camera recording stop in the middle of a take was pretty disheartening. This isn't a hacked camera.

Perhaps the supplied cable has something to do with it... I read somewhere that 3.1 generation is important to how the FP operates with the USB-C. I believe the Kingston and others like the T7 are using 3.2 so even with the faster speeds, I guess there may be some kind of compatibility issue. I may buy a new cable and test it out because the size of those Kingston drives is pretty tiny. Sabrent also makes one called the Rocket Mini, so if you, and others, are using Sabrent nVME drives with your DPL, then that might be an alternative option as well. I think I need a little more testing and some research before I drop the money into DPl... even though that seems like the best option if it works and the drives aren't too expensive.

I think the cable does matter. I have had no issues with my T5 setup, which I used on the last feature I did. I just did a little vacation and used the Dark Power option as it is just more compact. Internal recording was part of the reason I went with the FP, but using a cable kind of kills that. I do have the cable clamped on both ends when I use it.

The drive I have in the Dark Power setup is an NVMe PM991a 512gb ssd. No issues so far with it in 4k 12bit. I might get more drives for it if I hold onto it long enough. 

 

I know its off topic but are you saying the internal CDNG 3200 iso isn't useful in HD or both HD and 4K? I have personally found 3200 iso to be incredibly useful, really one of the highlights of the camera for me. I just expose for the subject and it handles highlights really well, even though they appear to be blown in the camera monitor. 

I haven't heard of the Sandisk Pro Blade but it looks like a good solution. I have been using a 3rd Party SSD solution from Dark Power Lab, which I really like due to it being cordless. 

@kyedoes a lot of travel so I can definitely see how a GH5 with vari ND and a small lens is a better setup for that usage. You could probably pocket that if you have the right Jacket where as you'll never be able to pocket a C100. 

Also for situations where you want to film and not be noticed a GH5 or other camera just looks more like you are doing casual photography. C100 not as much. But if you rig out a DSLR it stops looking like a stills camera and you stop looking like a hobbyist. 


I did a video using the ARRI Alexa, C100, and GH5. The C100 was my favorite out of the box look. It was a lower dynamic range scene but the colors were just really pretty. 

 

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I'm finding it's better to protect the highlights as much as possible with the FP, no matter the mode. But there is a lot of latitude which is making exposure a breeze. Between the center-weighted meter and the waveform, it seems near impossible not to get a workable shot.

That said, I still want to test out the 8bit raw mode a bit more and the 1080p, especially in higher frame rates. I like how it has a 48p option.

I had a look at the DPL products and they do look nice. I watch this guy named Justin Phillips on YouTube and he mentions them in one of his videos and it seems the drives get a little hot... have you noticed that with yours?

I'm also looking at a couple other brand SSD's... Kingston and Adata both make very small, external SSD drives and Sabrent has a small one called the Rocket Nano which is self-contained. I'm gonna have a go at those and make sure I'm happy with the camera before I send off for the DPL caddy/drive... even though that's probably where I'll end up. I want to keep this thing as compact as possible.

You'll find the shadows do not hold up as well in 8 bit or 10 bit. But if you expose reasonably you'll be fine. 

It isn't a bad option if you can get one cheap with some accessories. 

Its a larger sensor than the P6K and the ergonomics are nicer. The option for Prores 444 is awesome.

At 5 pounds its not a super heavy package and you don't need to do much to be ready to shoot besides throw on a Vmount battery. Resolution wise 4.6k is really nice at frame rates up to 60p. 

It's got some weight to it but at 5 pounds it isn't bad. Gives for a great natural looking handheld and it's light enough where you could get it on a Ronin with a smaller lens. 

 

7 hours ago, kye said:

I've seen this a lot on camera comparisons.  Two images look like they have a different WB, but when you compare them the neutral greys are both neutral but there will be different tints with the highlights/shadows or on hues that are beyond a certain level of saturation.

It makes looking and comparing images very confusing - they look different but sensible adjustments don't seem to be effective in making them match.  The good thing with the FP is (I assume) you can CST back to a neutral point and then apply whatever colour science you want, side-stepping any oddities from a particular colour science or other.

Using color space transform and the ARRI lut gets them to match contrast wise. The color still looks vastly different. I feel they look quite close after adjusting WB/tint around, but my color blind eyes aren't a great judge. 

9 hours ago, OleB said:

Yeah that seems to be, because in camera, and with an external monitor as well, there is no way of correctly exposing the camera in any other ISO setting than 100. The display forces you to underexpose until the preview looks okay, but in reality, this is what the log shows as well, it is then underexposed.

I compared the metering options of the camera and its preview to my Ninja V route with the ARRI LUT by toggling the Ninja on/off. With the Ninja exposure was totally fine, on the fp with the same settings obviously, it was already reading as severely overexposed, both in the display and with the false colors turned on. So that being said, only the Ninja V way can be exposed like expected if you want to shoot something else than ISO 100.

 

I use 100 iso to see my highlights and then push from there between 400-800 to see what I have in the shadows. I used this method on the last feature I did and was happy with the results. 

640 iso does looks underexposed after changing the color space. However after boosting the exposure to match both cameras it actually seems similar to the Alexa in terms of noise performance. So in that sense it actually works out. I could have lit it bright and got a cleaner image but I wanted to see both cameras in a dim situation. The Sigma FP could have been cleaner if I bumped it up to 3200 iso but I wanted to see them at the same ISO. 
 

I think the MK II would be a good way to go. I see one on eBay right now for $800. 

You get HD 60fps and dual pixel AF. It is center focus only but still reliable and useful. 

The C100 body is bulky but it is actually a great form factor. Pretty easy to mount on a gimbal without the top handle. It is really just a pick up and use camera. 

If you only need HD capture its a good option. Dynamic range isn't there but if you can get around that you'll be fine. 

7 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Oh yeah, with the actual EVF this wouldn't work at all.. Althought the same idea with a M42 ssd might. There's also this option, which is by far the neatest way to go.

 

I got one of these. It is a neat way to keep it super small and compact. Good for a very low key shoot. I wish it didn't block the HDMI port though. 

On 11/12/2022 at 11:01 PM, kye said:

When I (eventually) get around to grading these, any objections to me posting the graded images in the thread?

No go right ahead 

On 11/13/2022 at 7:23 AM, OleB said:

Have played a little with the files. Seems that the white balance and exposure was different. But once that has been set approx. the same the fp files look astonishing close the the ones from the Alexa.

For the Alexa I have just chosen the ARRI Rec709 LUT built into DaVinci.

For the fp settings were as follows:

RAW settings: 

Blackmagin Design + Blackmagic Design Film

CST: In: DaVinci Wide Gamut & Blackmagic Design Film => Out: Arri Wide Gamut 3 & Arri LogC3

LUT: Same built in ARRI Rec709 LUT

 

The white balance was set the same on both cameras but yes they are a lot different in how they interpret it. The exposure looks a lot the same in REC709 but when switched to a log profile it looks a lot darker on the FP. 

Feel free to share stills of your grades!!

Resolution and dynamic range are lacking compared to the Nikon Z6 as well as low light performance. 

They give a nice image if the lighting is decent. Canon colors rock. 

7 hours ago, OleB said:

Tom, I would like to test the files this weekend. What have been the ISO settings of both cameras, expect that the Alexa was on ISO 800, the fp?

Cheers!

I believe both were at 640 iso 

9 hours ago, OleB said:

Thank you very much for your efforts, Tom! I am downloading the files right now and will check them asap. 🙂

3 hours ago, kye said:

I'm also downloading, but it'll take some time (both to download and to check them out!).

Thanks, this should be really interesting.

Do you have some thoughts after shooting it?  I presume you've had a bit of a look at how they compare?

I am excited to hear your guys thoughts. 

The white balance and tint was quite different on the two cameras. The Alexa has a bit more texture I would say, the sigma a little cleaner. 

@kye @OleB

Here are some comparisons. 

One with pure tungsten, one with a 5600k and RED light, one daylight shadows, and one daylight sun. Hopefully these are helpful. Worst part of this is uploading to the drive takes like 12 hours lol. 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qxyxV-fFrBnyAh66joyRlgc2J6Xwbn7J?usp=share_link

I actually did expose both cameras exactly the same as they looked similar at the same ISO. Outside shots were at F11-F16 and further adjusted with the shutter. Lenses were Meike 35mm on Alexa and Meike 50mm on the Sigma. 

28 minutes ago, kye said:

Yeah, I thought that 12-bit RAW sensor readout (and the corresponding 10bit log) was pretty much the standard on almost all cameras that have a log profile.  I thought that some cameras had a 14-bit readout but it wasn't that common.

Of course, that is just another feather in the cap for 5D with Magic Lantern - 14-bit RAW straight to the card.  Still a standout spec and stand-out image, 14 years later.

Yeah I know some shooters who still prefer the 5D over the likes of the Panasonic S1 or Pocket 4k. 

I am super happy with the performance of the Sigma FP which is only 12 bits. Maybe color depth beyond that isn't that important. Who knows 

Honestly 12 bit RAW isn't a RED or ARRI competitor. To me that is the difference between a lot of lower end cameras compared to Venice, ARRI or RED.

RED and Venice are doing 16 bit and the ARRI is 14 bit readout into a 12 bit log Prores or RAW. These other cameras are doing a 12 bit readout into 12 bit linear RAW. It isn't the same. Maybe I am being too spec obsessive though. If the image looks good you can't argue with it. 

47 minutes ago, OleB said:

That could be one approach yes. Depending how close the ISO ratings of both companies is it might give slightly different exposures though. Let us see 🙂

I'd probably do one exposing to what looks normal per camera, one exposing for highlights, and one where both are the exact same aperture/ND. 

I can say having used them together on jobs the Sigma is amazing in terms of image quality. The workflow is just a pain to where I wouldn't use it on most projects as a main camera. But it punches way above its price tag.

59 minutes ago, OleB said:

Tom to you have a Ninja V available as well? Because then you could upload the ARRI conversion LUT to the Ninja V to exactly monitor the camera. I would be very much interested in the result of ISO 800 from the fp against the Alexa. Theoretically they should be identical with the difference being the DR obviously. 

I could possibly borrow one. Would expose them at the same aperture? 

2 hours ago, OleB said:

I agree with everything you have said. What the fp does now using that ARRI LUT is extremely interesting, I have never seen a camera before where you get skin tones which are directly out of camera on the skin tone line of the vector scope unless you have set a totally wrong white balance. Usually that needs a lot more work. This point alone makes me very happy.

Working hard currently to get my hands on an Alexa for testing both cameras at ISO 800 side by side. Granted I will provide the results here once I have done so.

What I wanted to express again is my gratitude for all of your contributions on this topic. Without this forum I would never gotten to this point and I am extremely thankful for that.

I could do those tests for you next week and send you the files. 

The Sigma FP is really nice. Great color reproduction. It certainly doesn't have the dynamic range of an Alexa but that is ok. 

My biggest gripe with it is the micro HDMI which makes it scary for professional use. 

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

The thing I keep going back to, even after people talk about the benefits of being able to downscale it to get even better 4K, is that we really aren't even using 4K to its true potential and probably never will before it gets replaced by 8K. Even downscaling to get "better" 4K feels silly, because the difference is so negligible unless you're watching on a big enough screen. It feels weird to argue against higher resolutions, and I don't necessarily view it like that in my head, but this rush to 8K and beyond feels more like a way to charge us more for cameras than a genuine need or necessity. Give me a 4K camera that can film 120fps without any risk of overheating and with all the features we are genuinely asking for before trying to entice us with 8K that 98% of us don't need.

I mean it is clearly just a marketing push. They need a reason to market new cameras to people. This is especially true in the market that these lower end cameras are being sold to. Companies continue to gimp features and push new features that don't even function properly.