Zeng

On 7/1/2021 at 5:31 AM, Chrad said:

Silly. Film is a lot grainier and we accept that as part of the aesthetic, so I don't know why we need to treat video differently and expect total cleanness to the point of sterility. 

Usually you denoise and then add grain :).

22 hours ago, BrooklynDan said:

A line of Nikon cine primes would be an instant hit. Nikon manual focus glass has always been popular for filmmaking going back to the days of Vistavision, but their latest generation of still glass just has hopelessly crunchy and awkward mechanics that make smooth focusing impossible. Which is a shame since the glass is magnificent, with warm, beautiful skintones, smooth fall-off, subtle vignetting, and some of the best bokeh around. It looks like a mix of Cooke and Leica, but with a little Panavision character tossed in. If they rehoused their existing high speed G-series lenses into a sturdy cinema housing (like Zeiss does with the Compact Primes) with interchangeable mount, DPs would be all over it.

As far as cameras go, trying to compete in the mirrorless arena is a waste of time for them, in my opinion. Too late, too crowded and always stuck behind Sony thanks to their sensors being inside Nikon cameras. Would rather see them release something more niche and out of the box.

In fact their G series are rehoused already by TLS into Vega set: https://www.truelens.co.uk/vega

1 hour ago, ade towell said:

But it has no IS and Sony IBIS is not great.

Anecdotal but I've read that the AF on the C70 is no better than that of the C200 which from my short test wasn't that great. Canon doesn't seem to be able to put the top AF from their stills cameras into their cinema cameras

I can attest, it's definitely not great in C200. In my experience it was no better than AF in Z6. Which is not bad, but there are better options for sure.

7 hours ago, Tony Manero said:

Did anyone managed to output LOG to the atomos ninja? I did connect the a7sIII to the ninja, the ninja input shows 4.2kraw, and the gamma is on Native.

But It the image is Linear and record Linear while on the A7SIII monitor shows (correctly) Slog3...

 

I've been in contact with both Sony and Atomos (tech support not Knowledgeable )...

Please let us know their answer. Sony’s marketing was “16bit linear recorded as 12bit log” which is very different from 12bit linear - as used in case of other mirrorless cameras.

I’m using Zilr. Works great.

Hi, it never came back. Shot quite a bit on Z6, everything in prores raw, @100, 200, 400, 800 ISO, no flickering whatsoever.

28 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

 The mount also is closed so 3rd party support will be extremely limited, if the lens options work for you then fine, but compared to the E-mount its never going to be as comprehensive.

Well, one of the reason I like z-mount is that theoretically it's the only mount you could adapt any lens to. I mean it's the shortest flange distance of 16mm, and the widest diameter (55mm). Techart already has a sony e to z adapter that works. And Even Canon RF and Panasonic L mount could be adapted.

Amateurish af on z6? I don’t know why this myth continues. AF in video mode is actually excellent. And native s lenses don’t breath (almost). Strangely, Nikon somewhat showed they really cared and understood the needs of video shooters, and then sort of left things in the middle of the road. Lenses need linear focus mode as an option (was mentioned they were to get it, but when?), z6 was the first with prores raw, but the wait was too long, processor appeared to be too weak (they had to compromise it a bit with pixel binning, although the quality is still great), internal rec was just 8bit. Could they fix all this with z6s? Somehow they don’t know how to market their products. Z6 is a much better product than is presented on youtube, etc.

11 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

I have done my own test years ago and watch a bunch of online test and can't find one which showed significant difference, In fact I would say zero difference between 12 bit raw and 14 bit raw. This is the reason I don't shoot 14 bit raw, I think people are two focused o numbers that go beyond human capabilities. Same for resolution, the 2.8k sensor of the Alexa is still good for big screen, so 4k will be good enough and 8k is beyond ridiculous  at any normal viewing angle. There is a lot of test like these https://photographylife.com/14-bit-vs-12-bit-raw

It can be 10bit, I’m totally fine with this. But there is a difference how you get those 10bit in acquisition - from 12 bit adc, 14bit adc or 16bit adc. And dr is one of the attributes affected by adc bit depth.

21 minutes ago, deezid said:

Pretty sure it uses a 12 bit adc mode for video, too.
Dynamic range seems to be the same as the S1H.

What about the claimed 16bit external output which apparently could be recorded as 12bit log raw (vs linear in the case of other cameras) to Ninja V? DR comparison tests are needed.

2 hours ago, Super8 said:

Except for Canon I think Sony and Nikon have really good cameras coming out.  

My best take is Nikon gives us 4K120p out at a higher quality than the A7s3 and better 4K60 internal also. 

I think the dual processors will take the load off the sensor and I don't think Nikon will have heat issues.   Nikon will use HDMI to the Atomos when it's needed.   The Nikon workflow out to the Atomos and I'm fine with that if they give better quality and more options with external recording.

 

 

As much as I love Z6 and have hopes Z6s brings certain improvements, it's going to use same sensor, which means 12 bit ADC. Which gives 12 stops of DR more or less. While mostly this is ok for me, Sony's 16bit output could bring 1-2 additional real stops which is tempting. Hate to say this as I never like Sony cameras. Well, up to now...

18 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Wish they'd go all out with video. 

Prores RAW in the Z6 is compelling but its had so many issues and you have to send it in for an upgrade. 

Nikon needs to at least match Fuji's internal video specs and they should throw in RAW like in the Sigma FP with a USB-C out. Priced at around $2000 that would be a compelling option for video. They also need to get their AF in order. It's not the greatest on the Z6 and its a mess on the Z50. Autofocus in while shooting in N-LOG is also a must. 

Have you actually used prores raw in Z6? It has far less issues than presented by some youtubers. And I find AF on native lenses very good in video mode. In fact I was shooting on 2 cameras, Canon C200 beside Z6, and AF is actually tracking better on Z6. Believe it or not. No hunting, smooth transition. They really made those S lenses great for video. There's really little not to like about them. Lack of linear focus is the only thing I can think of. Maybe people judge too much by the looks these days? They might lack solid look (although I dig it), hence they are not good?

I've tested it in prores RAW. 

On 7/10/2020 at 6:54 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

Yeah, a new Z6 would require  AT LEAST 10-bit internal LOG, and I would need to see some confirmation that the dynamic range matches that of the S1 V-LOG since what few tests I saw online seemed to say that it had a good stop-and-a-half LESS than the S1 did. (If someone has a link to tests showing dynamic range of N-LOG where it compares equally or favorably to the S1, please let me know.)

And 4K 60 full frame.

But then there is the lens situation...

Nikon lenses are plentiful and affordable. S1 lenses.... that's a a no.

But S1 lenses have minimal focus breathing and the zooms are about as close to being parfocal as you are going to find.

Anyway... all this just to say that I guess I am looking forward to the real world tests of the Canon R6 the most.

Z6 has about the same DR as S1H. A little over 12 stops. Tested myself. Well, depending on what's acceptable to you in the shadows, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 stop more on S1H as it uses NR.

On 7/6/2020 at 3:29 AM, gethin said:

So what's the final conclusion with z6 raw. Is it worth the update? Is there much pain in grading compared to Nikon flat. I'm shooting 8bit internal at the mo

My personal conclusion - it's great. Well worth. Image quality is amazing, the image "thinkness" I get is great for grading. Just shot a project were we risked using 3 different cameras to capture simultaneously. Z6 with prores RAW, bmpcc 4K and GH5. While all are realtively easy to bring close ( I use Sage's Bmpcc and GH5 to Alexa LUTs and convert Z6 prores raw to logC to apply Arri Alexa LUTs further), Z6 image stands out imo. Yes, it's pixel-binned, not pixel-for-pixel full readout, but there are only very specific situation where you'd notice some artefacts. Never in normal shooting conditions. That's my experience.

2 hours ago, Brother said:

Did they get rid of the screen delay in 24fps video recording? Remember it driving me a bit crazy when I used it about 5-6 months ago. 

Screen delay when recording externally to Ninja V was improved. Was around 8 frames, now around 4. But only for Prores Raw.

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

You should try the Fringer EF mount adapter for the Z6. The AF is like dual pixel AF. Works much more reliably than the Techart e-mount adapter did.

The Z6 remains a very underrated tool.

I think the problem is that almost all the competition is more interesting in one way or another and the body design make it look like a cheap Nikon 1 series thing.

 

Absolutely underrated. IBIS is on par with S1H. And I fell in love with it's autofocus using Z lenses (have 50mm and 24-70 f4). Never thought I would, but they did it right definitely giving video shooters some thought  - lenses practically don't breath, focus absolutely silently, and there's no hunting, transitions are smooth. There was so much hate and misinformation about Z6 from the beginning. And Nikon are so incapable of marketing the strengths of their products, it almost makes you cry...

58 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

How do you get more than 12 stops of dynamic range from a 12 bit ADC readout? Isn't this impossible by definition? Wouldn't there by a hard ceiling of 12 stops from a 12 bit ADC? See the depreview link above.

My issues are that I don't know why Cinema5D uses SNR=2 as the noise floor or why they place the first wedge of the Xyla chart below clipping. SNR=2 seems arbitrary, and their best explanation of why they choose this is it's what gets them a 14 stop measurement from the Alexa, but Arri intentionally underrates its sensors and if you talk with their reps they'll tell you the Amira, Mini, etc. are 15+ stops. And the official number from Arri has always been 14+ anyway. That's why I see the comparisons as useful, but to me the actual measurement I'd derive from the S1H's result are the 13.8 they find at SNR=1 plus a bit more from them placing the first wedge below clipping. So about 14 stops. Likewise all their numbers seem low to me.

Numbers like "usable dynamic range" and Cinema5D's decision to sort of arbitrarily decide a cut off point for noise have been discussed in the past and never that productively. Canon took issue with their results on the C300 Mk II and released their own tests that correlate more closely with 14-15 stops if read traditionally rather than by Cinema5D's arbitrary (however useful for comparison) metrics. If you're interested in useable dynamic range in the field I find Geoff Boyle's over/under tests on CML more helpful anyway as you can see an entire scene and where different channels clip and there are some cameras that clip certain colors sooner or less attractively. Of course the Alexa does best. 

If the S1H results are heavily influenced by noise reduction I don't know. I didn't know the Ursa Mini had no NR at that, that's impressive if true. I haven't had issues with noise reduction on either camera, but I have read about the S1H having ghosting issues for other people so clearly others have. I'm not really concerned with that, though, as I'm not planning to buy either camera. I'm just trying to understand how you can get 14 stops of dynamic range from a 12 bit ADC.

In my experience and tests Arri are the only ones keeping their DR rating more or less real. All others are counting nonexistent stops digging them out in the shadows. There will always be controversy as to what counts as a useful stop in the shadows vs the noise floor, especially given all the NR processing almost everyone is using. So one can find an additional stop in the shadows at the cost of chroma, etc. And it quickly becomes religious with the brand fans. Best advice - test your camera of choice, find its  DR limits as acceptable to you personally, and forget the numbers.

4 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

Did I hear 12-bit LOG encoded RAW?

No, it's linear RAW, just like Nikon Z6. It will be interesting to see how Panasonic handled all processing things. Supposedly it should be a stream without any processing applied, which S1H log internal does quote a lot to give you clean shadows, etc. It is mostly apparent when I compared S1H to Z6 RAW - they both share the same sensor. As Panasonic does full sensor readout, this should be without some artifacts found on Z6 image. Currently I work on Z6 raw differently than suggested by all these tutorials. I open them in Assimilate Scratch, interpret as Rec2020 gamut and assign Arri Log C gamma, then output with additional converting step to Arri wide gamut. The resulting prores log files are very close to Alexa in color, which was very difficult to achieve when working on Nikon log files. It will be interesting to see how S1H raw behaves in this regard.

31 minutes ago, mrtz said:

I tested the same desk setting today again. The flickering does not come up when it is only lit by sun light. When I  added a desklamp (with a normal light bulb, no LED) the flicker was there again. The Nikons flicker reduction did not change anything, whether set to „automatic“, „50 hz“ or „60hz". maybe there is a problem with the flicker reduction, not working when recording externally? but I wonder if it really was like this that there are not more people reporting this problem?

have you tried keeping your camera and recorder on for longer time and retesting. It seemed to disappear last time I checked. Will retest again. And yes, this could only be observed with artificial light. 

Noticed the same with the first few shots using prores RAW.  But it seemingly disappeared after a while as if the camera needs to "warm up". Will test again. Weird. And flickering was at different ISO settings compared to mrtz's findings. 

This discussion looks similar to Sigma Fp topic regarding their raw DNG having some issues. Problems in downscaling 6K to 4K Raw? Very interesting. Still waiting for my Z6 to come back from Nikon. Will do some testing. Although I don't have a pro resolution chart at hand either.

9 hours ago, eleison said:

 

Remember when people shot film?  Nobody did any coloring EXCEPT for big name directors who sent their film to "coloring" companies to basically make sure every shot match with every other shot for a certain scene.  That was about it.  Nothing more.  

Arguably, film still has better color than ANY digital camera at any bit depth. So using that argument to justify 8bit camera is rather weird. But of course, you're free to shoot on 8bit camera, especially IF you like its sooc image :).

I'm powering it from the nucleus M handgrip which is attached to the camera cage and also used to control the motor. I made a custom USB to lemo cable for it. Maybe Tilta has a ready made cable now. It gives 7.2V. The higher the better as the torque depends on the voltage. So standard 5V is not the best solution.

33 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

The 12 bit sensor readout (in video mode) and 12 bit output is determinating the maximum 12 stops of dynamic range.

As long as you are "grading with LUT's" the results will not differ from 8 bit recording.

Sorry, but if one doesn't see advantage/difference in using 12bit color then I guess one is better to keep using something like Sony A7III with its glorious 8bit log.