kye

22 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Any tips for the brands you've seen? :- )

Not a clue, I just saw that there were some products available.  A quick search reveals that the usual suspects offer them (Moment, Neewer, Smallrig, etc).

Lots of them (or all of them?) will have their optics manufactured in the same factory, so they might all be similar optically.  In which case, you're choosing form-factor (for example the Moment one is square and doesn't seem to have filter threads so doesn't look like it supports a vND) and perhaps the case / system that goes with that, and also price of course.

On 10/11/2025 at 1:16 PM, eatstoomuchjam said:

At least for the 16 Pro, there are Magsafe threaded filter adapters.  I have one that takes a 67mm filter (or is it 58?).  The only real bummer is that it can't go on with my phone in the standard Apple case so I have to pop the phone out to use it.  Mine cost $20 or so IIRC.  Maybe something like that exists for the 17 as well?

Interesting idea and seems like it might work well for some situations.  

I personally always use my phone in a drop-proof case and never take it out (as that just means the fit of the case gets loose and it lessens the protection) but the idea of a clip-on / clamp-on one seems sensible.  I'd imagine that we'll see a number of third-party accessories come out for the 17 over the coming months.  When I got mine there were only Apple cases available to be delivered immediately and the delivery date for the rest were weeks away.

I took the GH7 >> Voigtlander 42.5mm F0.95 >> Sirui 1.25x anamorphic adapter out for a spin in the markets last night and the images were great.  I'm not sure how much of that was due to the anamorphism of the lens, and how much it was just due to it not being pristine, but maybe that might be worth the extra fuss.

20 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Is this something? ; )

To me, this outcome doesn’t seem negligible at all. Quite the contrary.

No one invented the wheel this time. But it seems that has now been perfected, evolving in a way even the most oblivious cannot miss.

To me, it would/will likely be the 1st round :- )

The DOF adapter still seems like a crazy / borderline broken vintage lens emulation, but if that's the look you're going for then it's a good option to have.

What seems much more useful though is using it as a B or C camera, fitted with an ND and shooting manually.

The more I use and grade my 17 Pro, the more I think that I'll work out a compact vND setup for it.

The primary job for my phone is shooting ultra-fast with the default app in Prores Log, but the footage is so good that it would be great to be able to put on a vND, swap to the BM Camera app, and then shoot manually with a 180-shutter.  

In the default app where it's exposing with the shutter the only things I'm noticing that are limitations are the short shutter speeds and the stabilisation in difficult situations (like when you're tired, hot and sweating, blood-sugar is up and down, etc).  The stabilisation is actually really good in the longer focal lengths, it's the 13mm and 24mm ones that are the challenges as you get the edges flopping around a bit.

I'm also wondering what the 1.5x anamorphic adapters might be like for this.  To get a vND setup for it you have to get a dedicated case and a custom vND for that case (which aren't cheap) so if you're going to be spending decent money on these things anyway then maybe getting a case and anamorphic lens and then using a standard vND that fits the lens might not be that much more costly.  
I have no idea if the lenses are good, are worth it, and how easily they work with the 1x / 2x camera and the 4x / 8x camera, as the mount would have to move if you wanted to use it with the 4x / 8x camera.

I've seen a few 1.5x adapters, which would make the 24 / 28 / 35 / 48mm normal camera into a 16 / 19 / 23 / 32mm camera.  The other camera would go from being 100 / 200mm to 67 / 133mm.  
Perhaps the best combinations in that bunch would be the 32mm, and 67mm ones, perhaps with the 23mm (or 19mm) as very wide options for specific situations.

Tianluokeng Tulou clusters, Fujian Province, China.
These buildings have a very thick outer wall of earth and a 3-5 storey inner wooden structure that houses dozens of families.  The structure is designed to be stable during earthquakes and secure against bandits.  The oldest if the ones we visited was built in 1796.

These are just with a quick grade, mostly Resolve Film Look Creator. The DR in the scene is extreme, and while all the required info is in the files, I'm going to have to go heavy on the power-windows when I grade these properly.

Grabs from GH7 + 14-140mm zoom.

Grabs from iPhone 17 Pro shooting Prores Log with default app.
The Prores HQ Apple Log files grade really nicely, have heaps of DR, and are great to work with. The DR isn't quite as much as the GH7, but it's more than enough for these scenes.  These were graded at a different time to the above GH7 shots so probably don't match.

All-in-all, the iPhone well and truly punches above its weight when you take into account it's pocketability, the size of the sensor, and the incredible range in focal lengths.  Imagine how much you'd have to pay to get a lens that can do 13-200mm FF equivalent FOV and has exposure levels between F1.78 and F2.8 across the whole range.

On 10/7/2025 at 8:25 AM, Alt Shoo said:

For me, the iPhone has been competent for filming since the 13 pro max. I’ve produced whole documentaries with it. Now with the 17 pro max out, with an iPhone and maybe an action camera, I can document high quality content while being extra nimble and incognito. 

Absolutely.  Use a tripod or stabiliser when required and use an ND to shoot manually with the iPhone and you'll get top notch results with a very light setup.

Great to hear people using modest tools and putting out work.

Another frame grab showing a bit more DR.  Same Resolve + FLC workflow, but no grain added, so what you see below is the noise and compression artefacts from the Prores.

Default exposure:

-2 stops to see where the clipping point is:

+2 stops to look at the shadow detail:

Very serviceable, especially considering this was shot from the window of a moving train (the OTHER reason why rolling shutter matters).

Here's some more grabs.

I started this thread by talking about the GH7, but I think the iPhone 17 Pro has also come of age (for me at least).

My goals for using this is to keep it in my pocket, be able to shoot super quickly using the default camera app, and focus on the compositions and capturing the events in front of the camera while it does all the auto-everything required for a good quality capture.

First impressions and thoughts from a few weeks of using it.

• 4K Prores HQ files in Apple Log 2 look great and are a joy to work with in Resolve (see examples below)
• All the lenses seem to work well and even up to the 8x 200mm are completely usable hand-held, and if leaning your hand against something the 8x is almost locked-off
• It records 6 channels of audio, and they appear to all be independent and available in the NLE (see image below) which might(?) be useful in difficult situations where there's wind noise in one or one channel clips etc?
• While recording Prores Log the default camera app shows you the log image and doesn't have an option to apply a LUT, so although it's a great way to be sure you're recording LOG, it's hardly ideal.  Hopefully they fix this in an update.

Audio channels in Resolve:

Some frame grabs from out the hotel window in HK.  Bear in mind these were shot with the default camera app, through multiple layers of tinted glass, and have had a film emulation grade put on top of them.

1x 24mm camera:

8x 200mm camera:

with a bit of sharpening:

with too much sharpening (unless you're a "cinematic Youtuber"):

1x 24mm camera (ignore the reflections in the window):

8x camera:

8x camera with sharpening:

and in terms of DR / latitude, here's the 1x image brought up ~2.5 stops:

I haven't tested it in low-light yet, but to me, all this essentially means that the camera is sufficiently technically capable that I can shoot with it without feeling like the technical factors are overly restrictive.  This is incredibly impressive, given that even cameras like the GH5 needed you to pay attention to their limits in some situations.

For the first time I feel like if something happened to my 'real' camera and all I had to capture a trip is my phone I wouldn't feel like I'd stuffed up.  This is the first trip I haven't packed a backup camera body, which has given me the ability to pack a couple of extra lens options, thus 'upgrading' the GH7 rig as well.

If no-one is able to assist here, might be worth asking in the relevant sub-forum on liftgammagain.com where the colourists all hang out.  Of course, you might get an answer that's more technical than you'd like...

7 hours ago, D Verco said:

I don't think Resolve supports oklab yet. According to google's ai you'd need to use an openfx plugin to provide support. CIELAB is still a good colourspace though. It's a huge improvement for saturation compared to Resolve's default in HSL. 

The way I've used it in the past is there's a DCTL that will convert to/from OKLab.  The pain is that it assumes you're in LogC3, so I have to do a CST before/after to get from/to DWG/DI which I use as my timeline colour space.

My next steps were to look at the licensing for the OKLab DCTL, and work out how to just go directly from DWG/DI to OKLab in my DCTL.  I'd assume I'd just need to combine the matrices for DWG->LogC3 and the LogC3->OKLab together into one step, but not sure if that's right.

7 hours ago, D Verco said:

Do you have an example of "target certain ranges but are applied globally". 

The way I'd do it is to implement a function that can be applied to the LAB variables that is stronger in the target areas than the others, or only apply in the target areas.  

A simple way is to say something like:
if(A<0) { A=0; } 
if(B<0) { B=0; } 
X = (A * B);
Then use that as a mask where the transformation is multiplied by X, so if X=1 the full effect is applied and if X=0 no effect is applied.

What that will do is not effect the three quarters of the colour circle where either A or B are negative, and for the quarter they're both positive it will start at zero on the edges and then ramp up.  This will ensure nothing in the image breaks because every adjacent colour before the operation remains adjacent afterwards.

That will create sudden transitions in the mask though, so you could (for example) square the mask before using it, so values of X that are very low will be vanishingly low and the surface created will be a smooth curve.  A bit more sophistication can make the transitions at the top (near 1) smooth too.

This above is a transform that targets the A=B vector, but if you calculate Hue and Sat from the A and B values, then you can start to combine all sorts of values together, like having the value target a hue with a certain range, a saturation with a certain range, and then square that to target a location on the A-B plane.  

You can localise the intensity further by cubing X, or better yet, apply a variable factor which shifts X closer to 1 before it gets squared or cubed, so you can adjust it to the strength you want.

While you're developing these things I'd map the variables to sliders in the plugin and then you can tune them and when you find good values just hard-code them.

7 hours ago, D Verco said:

Definitely agree that LAB or even HSV are better spaces than the default. And I do think it's surprising the defaults aren't improved to provide better results- especially when the software is mainly known for colour grading. 

People have been calling for many years to be able to change the colour space of lots of controls, the way you can with tools like the Colour Warper in the spiderweb view.

This would make grading so much easier if you could just set the colour space of the Saturation knob to be OKLab and be done with it, etc.

20 hours ago, ND64 said:

Then it should be a lot noisier, even with baked in NR. I guess Apple embedded a brightness map metadata, like they did for gain map in HDR Jpeg XL, so raw data stays intact but displayed darker in underexposure shot.

Would the Prores standard support this?  If they did, how could I tell?  

4 hours ago, ND64 said:

There is almost no noise difference between the base and -3. If there would be no penalty for underexposure, thats not underexposure. Maybe it darkens the image without changing the exposure parameters while reporting otherwise. You can test that with a moving subject.

I'm not really sure what you're saying.

I pulled the clip into Resolve and brightened it by the certain number of stops I specified.  If it wasn't actually darker then it would have become too bright.

I used to edit projects on the train to/from work using a base-model Intel Macbook Air and external SSD with proxies rendered to 720p Prores Proxy format.  This was in Resolve 12.5, so a long time ago.

They edited like butter.  

Rendering them was a pain, swapping between the proxies and full resolution files was complicated and took a bit of work to get sorted out, but it made editing possible on very modest equipment.

Now with Apple Silicone, you can edit almost anything without needing proxies.

7 hours ago, ND64 said:

I understand people are excited that we now have some flexibility to color grade our smartphone image like its a cine cam, but why you go so extreme? 😄

We've actually had quite a bit of flexibility to colour grade our smartphone images for basically a decade now, but the issue is that no-one shooting with their phone could be bothered to get off their asses and actually learn how Colour Management worked.

Some initial testing using the default Apple Camera app.

I did some bitrate stress tests and got bitrates between 550-700Mbps so it looks like the default camera app is just using Prores HQ.  The bitrates for the stress-test and for static scenes were all within this range.

Latitude tests using the native Apple camera app, the 1x camera and 4K Prores Log mode.  How I tested was I started recording, then clicked and held in the middle of the image, then dragged down all the way to the bottom to progressively under-expose.  Then in post I found the frames that aligned nicely to -1, -2, and -3 stops of exposure.

Reference image - this is how the app decided to expose and WB.

These are the fully corrected images (-1 stops, -2 stops, and -3 stops):

These are the images without any corrections so you can see the relative exposures:

and these are the images that have had exposure corrected but not WB corrected:

My impressions were that these graded beautifully in post.  I've graded a variety of codecs (everything from 8-bit rec709 footage to "HLG" footage to GH7 V-Log to downloaded files from RED / ARRI / Sony) and these felt completely neutral and responded just how you'd expect without any colour shifts or strange tints or anything else.

I've seen enough tests from iPhone 15 and 16 to know that Apple are doing all kinds of crazy HDR shenanigans, but realistically this footage seems like it's really workable.  If I can pull images back from -3 stops to be basically identical then that means that whatever colour grading I'll have to do on a semi-reasonably exposed image will be just fine.

Well, that was fun.  New phone has new colour space which requires updating Resolve which wouldn't install and required me to update MacOS.  Recording and then viewing the first clip took a lot longer than anticipated.

Here's some initial observations as I find my bearings.

Resolve 20.2 only has Apple Log 2 in the Colour Space, and only has Apple Log in the Gamma.

If we assume that BM and Apply both know what they're doing then that means that Apple Log 2 gets a new colour space but keeps the same gamma curve, and iPhone 15 and 16 users get an upgrade to Apple Log 2.

In the default camera app you only get Log and HDR (whatever that is) in Prores mode.  Not entirely sure what Prores flavour it is, but I'd guess HQ because the fine print in the settings to enable it says 1 minute of 4K 30p is 6GB which is 800Mbps (and would be 640Mbps for 24p) which is sightly lower than the 700 typically stated, but is definitely higher than the 471Mbps typically stated for 4K 24p Prores 422.

If you select Prores and Log, the image displayed is the log image..  no display conversion for you!

BM camera app gives tonnes more options.  I'll have to investigate that further, but last time I looked it seemed to only offer manual shooting, rather than the auto-everything that I need when shooting fast.

7 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

The phone arrived today as expected and I've had a few minutes to play around with the camera. I shot a short test scene using ProRes RAW and ProRes 422 in the Blackmagic app. Here's a quick look at the footage with just Resolve's Apple Log 2 CST applied. Very first observations:

• Open gate is only available in RAW or RAW HQ
• RAW can only recorded to an external drive. I have a great Magsafe SSD that I use for this.
• Sensor stabilization is not available in either raw mode
• Resolve is super sluggish with the raw files unlike ProRes RAW or BRAW files from my S1ii. I hope this gets optimized
• The normal raw controls are there and the footage is very flexible as you'd expect
• I used Resolve's built in Apple Log 2 CST for the test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97PPh276M4o

Interesting and thanks for sharing.  I hadn't heard the RAW was external only, I guess every new camera has its 'gotchas' in terms of combinations of features that do/don't work together.  

Mine arrived yesterday (Friday), which was a nice surprise as when I preordered it they predicted it wouldn't be delivered until Monday.  I got all the notifications etc, so it didn't just rock up with no warning though 🙂 

Odd that the sensor stabilisation isn't supported in RAW.  Is it IBIS or is it EIS?  If it's IBIS then I have no idea why it wouldn't be supported?

1 hour ago, maxJ4380 said:

Just like camera manufactures i guess. You can get option A & B but not option A & B and C, or option C & B but not A  Mini size factor may have less of a profit margin as well and perhaps even overheating, mostly i suspect its more about marketing segments and better profit margins. however i think you know this already 🙂

100%..  definitely what's happening.

1 hour ago, Django said:

Sadly the mini was a flop, it didn’t sell well. People want big phones apparently which I find annoying as one hand gesture operation is impossible, not to mention pocket ability and discretion while shooting. Those are the reasons why I still use my 13 mini as my daily driver despite having a « better » regular size iPhone.

I heard it was a flop.  One reason I didn't mind having a smaller phone is that I don't really do a lot of stuff on it, as I prefer using my laptop.  If I used my phone as my main device I'd be wanting the largest thing I could practically carry around.

I'll be curious to see how it goes.  On my last trip I bought a Pop Socket, which I found to work really well actually.  This is what it looks like if you're not familiar, and means you can hold it really securely, and it folds almost flat.

I put it towards the bottom and on one side so I could open it, pull the phone out of my pocket, open the camera app from the Home Screen, take some video, lock the phone and put it back in my pocket again, all with one hand.  The flaw was that because the socket wasn't in the middle of the phone so when walking the weight of the phone would rotate the phone.  

I got another one for the 17 and I'll put it in the centre of mass of the phone so when I walk with it there's no rotation induced from unbalanced motion.  I don't know what that means for how usable it will be one handed.  I guess sacrifices have to be made to go from h265 HDR to Prores with Apple Log.

1 hour ago, Django said:

My daily driver is an iPhone 13 mini and that won’t change (lowkey wish they’d reintroduce the mini line, everyone I know that has one loves them). But my secondary iPhone will be getting a substantial upgrade to the 17 Pro. It’s the first pro model that resonates with me. Love the rugged unibody design, previous pro models still had that fragile precious feel I despise. 

And of course the specs. One that few seem to mention is that open gate will be supported through Final Cut Camera 2.0. And the front camera sensor is square which allows multi aspect ratios, a cool direction.

I do more and more vertical work for social and a lot of times they want the “iPhone” look not a heavy graded shallow DoF look so main benefit for that will be the cameras but I have seen impressive videos shot on iPhone Pros. 28 years later included. So who knows to what capacity all these codecs, log, open gate etc will be used.

I also really like the Mini size and form factor, and TBH it frustrates me quite significantly that they don't put the good cameras in the smaller models.  It's like forcing you to buy a truck just to get power-steering.

I also agree that the square selfie-camera is a cool addition.  I'll be curious to see how wide it is, my recollection of previous versions was that they were a bit long of a focal length for what I wanted to shoot (me in a cool location) so I'd normally just use the wide-angle camera and turn it around and shoot blind.. hardly ideal.

The holy grail for these cameras is to look the same as a nice camera with a stopped down aperture.  I'd suggest that those iPhone 15 Apple Log vs Alexa videos showed that it was getting pretty close, although now with RAW it will be interesting to see how close it really is.  When the first Android RAW samples came out there was something about the footage that still looked like a phone but at the time I couldn't work out what it was.
There will be other things that might give the game away, but these will probably be how the camera is used rather than some innate property of the image itself.

I'll be putting mine through its paces once I get back from my trip and upgrade to Resolve 20.2 to get the RAW support.  I might have to do some side-by-side comparisons too.

12 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Me too here, very likely. For the first time. Windows and Android user, so far.

There's external SSD recording, and they're pretty on the nano side these days, so the 256GB version is enough.

Just be sure that the apps you will use will all still fit on the internal drive.  Apps are getting more and more "featured" and are more and more bloated with things, or they do things like cache data and store it locally for enhanced performance.

You might also benefit from some wiggle room, depending on how you're going to use it and how long you'll keep it.  My iPhone 12 Mini from 2020 is still going strong and if I didn't use the cameras so much I wouldn't feel the need to upgrade, so you might end up keeping it for quite some time.

12 hours ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

BM camera app will allow you to shoot Apple log in h.265 with very good quality. Saves soooo much space and looks great.

Yeah, I've seen tests of this configuration and they looked pretty good.  I suspect I'll end up just using the default camera app for speed of use, and I don't think it allows this combination (Log and h265) so I'll have to see what it allows me to do.

Ideally I'd go for 4K and Prores 422, which is around 500Mbps, so large but still manageable.  

8 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I'm not going to get an iphone, so unfortunately this isn't something I can use. I do, however, use a phone mounted on top of a camera for 3D motion tracking, when tracking the main footage isn't possible. For example, if the actual shot is a tight handheld shot of something with no tracking positions, I mount a phone on the camera rig, and use the wide angle for tracking. In an extreme case, I add tracking markers outside the main camera's field of view.

Since I can't sync them, I shoot the phone at double frame rate, then choose whether to drop the even or odd frames, whichever gets closer to the exact timing of the main camera. So then my maximum timing offset is sub-frame.

Genlock would make this all so much easier! Although--to be fair, at $1300 for an iphone + dock, I can probably just get another camera to dedicate to tracking.

I think there are a few very specific situation where you'd want to get the dock and use a phone rather than just use a proper camera with a (much) larger sensor, but not that many.

I am in chats with a lot of professional cinematographers who shoot a variety of client projects and the consensus seems to be that when the client wants something to look like it's been shot on a phone it's far far easier to just shoot it on a phone rather than try and get that specific look in post, but of course while shooting this "look" on a professional set you'd still want all the functionality like remote directors monitors and timecode sync for audio etc etc, so it's a very niche product but if you're doing that then it can save an incredible amount of hassle. 

Besides, now you can get your phone, add the external box, get a proper battery setup, and add a HUGE monitor..  no more being forced to shoot video on your iPad!!

1 hour ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

I am; should be delivered tomorrow. Main reason is it's my normal upgrade cycle time. But, even if it was a year early for me I'd still be compelled to buy it. I've been using my phone for critical pick up shots for a while now and the addition of ProRes RAW makes it even more useful for me this way. The 200mm equivalent telephoto also will be great for casual concert and event photography so I'm pretty happy all around. 

Nice.  I'm getting the Pro one to replace my 12 Mini, so it should be quite the upgrade.

When I'm on trips I use the big camera for shooting the surroundings and environment and my phone for quickly shooting the people I know as we're out and about doing things.  Ironically that means that it's my most important camera and the other stuff is my secondary setup.

I'll be curious to see what the lower-bitrate files are like, as shooting at full res gives very little recording time.

Anyone getting an iPhone 17 Pro / Pro Max?

51 minutes ago, D Verco said:

I'm actually doing saturation in LAB. There's a couple of difference colour/ gamma spaces being used to get better results than you'd get from Resolve's basic tools. 

And great point on the UI with DCTL's as a side panel. I find resolve's ui to be designed around control panels, which most people don't have. 

I think adding an vignette adjustment could definitely be possible. But other power window/ brush masks might be be off using Resolve's tools on the node. You definitely should be able to use it with power windows though. 

I do like the idea of having those retouching tools in Resolve, but I think it might have to be done in openfx as DCTLs have limitations. 

Also I originally want to add something like Capture One's colour editor or a hue control, but then Resolve added the colour slice tool. And while there are better possible implementations it did feel mostly redundant.

Definitely agree that lots of operations are better done in colour spaces other than the ones supported by Resolve natively.  Are you using OKLab for your Lab conversion?  I plan in integrating that into my tool once I get back to developing it.

I'd keep all the secondary adjustments like vignetting etc as power-windows in Resolve, as getting a single vignette slider that looks good across many/all scenarios probably isn't possible.

I haven't played with spatial adjustments in DCTLs yet, so I'm not sure what the performance hit is compared to OpenFX tools.  I'll probably investigate this at some point though, as there are a few operations I'd do that might benefit from being integrated into a single DCTL.

I played with the colour slice tool and I think it is actually very disappointing as I found it broke images incredibly quickly, while also simultaneously being too broad for lots of adjustments I'd like to make.  I've had much more success in doing more targeted adjustments in Lab that didn't go anywhere near breaking the image.  I find Lab is a far cleaner space to work in for lots of operations as the things you might want to do that are colour-slice-esque are often far simpler and far more universal.  There are tonnes of things you can do in Lab that target certain ranges but are applied globally, so won't break the image, like how doing (most) adjustments with the Channel Mixer can't break the image. 

I've been working on a similar one, but in L*a*b colour space and offering a lot of more advanced tools to quickly do things I do all the time.

One advantage of doing things in a DCTL rather than using the GUI controls is that when grading in Resolve while travelling etc, where you just have a small monitor and no control surfaces etc, you can make the viewer larger (IIRC using Shift-F) and it essentially gives you the viewer and the DCTL control panel on the right-hand-side of the screen, so it's a really efficient layout for grading using only the keyboard/mouse.

@D Verco if you're looking for ideas on how to expand the tool I'd suggest thinking about it for use with power-windows as well as over the whole image.  For example, my standard node graph has about 6 nodes with power-windows already defined that are ready to just enable if I want them.  I have ones for a vignette, gradients for sky and left and right, and four large soft power windows for people where I will typically do things like brighten / add contrast / sharpen, and do basic skin operations like hue rotations / hue compressions / etc.  
Most of the operations I'd do with those windows are covered by your tool, but not all of them, and if a tool can be used for a range of other tasks other than just basic image processing then all the better.
If you're taking a leaf from how Lightroom works, one of the most powerful features I used to use all the time (and wedding photogs would absolutely swear by) was the preset brushes.  I had brushes for skin smoothing, skin brightening, under-eye, redness, etc, and of course they all used the standard Lightroom controls, but in specific combinations they really worked well.

Something to think about.

I'm all for people being able to charge money for their efforts, but in todays climate, the more value you can provide the easier it will be to get people to part with their (often hard-earned) money.