kye

14 hours ago, dreamplayhouse said:

Some video from my daughter's dance show. Trying to get a 16mm film look - grading in Resolve. No audio.

What do you think?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8clsz53kl2olc5/fz47 lena dance 16mm.mov?dl=0

Looking really good!

I'm no expert, but it looked pretty close to a 16mm film look to me.  Potentially an earlier 16mm film perhaps?  My understanding is that 8mm film was pretty noisy at first but advances in the stock mean that modern 8mm is better than 16mm used to be, and that modern 16mm is now better than 35mm used to be, etc.  

2 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

Great clip! It had a real look to it. It did not scream "digital" to me at all. Blue on blue was surreal and cool. The FZ-47 has pretty wierd and not necessarily realistic color rendering that sometimes reminds me of a chemical process.

In my brief explorations, a bit of blur and some grain and a bit of a push to the colours (or a subject with limited hues) really does wonders to knock the digititis out of an image.

@PannySVHS @John Matthews @canonlyme 

I've been meaning to do a codec test on my GX85, so might use this thread to motivate me to do it.

Any suggestions for how / what to shoot?  I'm thinking a prime lens stopped down so it's nice and sharp, potentially with a moving subject (assuming I can find a time when there's a bit of wind to make the trees nearby move a bit).

Just catching up on this thread, and the only thing I can think to say is Damn!  Those images from @OleB are just wonderful.

Great subject / lighting / lens of course, but the sensor in this thing truly does not disappoint!

6 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Rumored cameras are terrible at video. And photo.

😜

You've got it backwards....   rumoured cameras are absolutely killer, it's the ones that get announced and released that are disappointing in almost every aspect!

Just read any "what camera should I buy" thread - there's always "wait for the X to be released" recommendations 🙂 

4 hours ago, Django said:

I feel zero emotional connection to Sony, neither when shooting or viewing the files. Its totally utilitarian and hence not very exciting or inspiring.

This is how I feel about Sony as well.  I suspect if I was much better at colour grading, or had a professional colourist to do it for me then that might change things.  Fuji, on the other hand, really delivers in the X-Factor department, despite being technically not as good in a number of ways.

4 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I think 8K is interesting for 2 or 3 things. Grabbing stills from video, high resolution ads that appear on screens in the street, and reframing stuff.

What kind of hi-res ads are around?  I haven't seen anything like this.

and what kind of high-resolution are we talking?  you can blow things up pretty seriously before the pixels become visible..

1 hour ago, Django said:

AF performance can absolutely be quantified. How it levels to your particular needs is subjective though obviously.

Generally speaking subpar AF performance is simply an AF system that hunts/pumps or/and doesn't stick to your subject.

Then you've got second gen PDAF that detects left/right eyes of various subjects. Object, animal etc detection.

And finally tracking. Canon/Sony have tap to track which Fuji is still lacking.

I firmly believe that almost everything can be quantified, but this one falls very far beyond the point of what is practical.

The GH5 tests I saw with the person stepping into and out of frame had the AF recognise a face and change focus across a range of reaction times - sometimes it was fast and other times reluctant, and occasionally the person would just stand there being ignored like a camera nerd at a high-school dance.  There aren't any easy way to quantify this.  GH5 testers couldn't even get the test to replicate, providing a number of hilarious examples were the person was walking around saying how bad it was and it tracking them just fine, and other testers saying it was really good and it doing quite badly.

One YouTuber who got the C70 when it first came out admitted in a follow-up review that he had to stop using the C70 until it had a firmware update or two because when it first arrived it had trouble recognising faces of darker-skinned people.  IIRC he had to hire something to use on commercial shoots because the C70 wasn't ready yet.  Canon can't even test their AF properly and it's one of their key brand differentiators!

If you were to quantify AF performance, not only would you have to have a dozen or so metrics (speed to recognise a face, how out-of-focus the face can be before it recognises a face, maximum tracking speed, how much of the face has to be visible, how far around the side of the face it detects, how bad the lighting has to be for it to recognise a face, etc) but you'd really struggle to quantify the GH5-style lack of reliability except to have an enormous sample size.

Peter McKinnon made a promo video for his new product, and at the 6:12 mark, the camera goes from focusing on the object:

to focusing on his face:

the two frames above are 2 frames apart.  Why did the mighty Canon PDAF randomly choose that moment to change focus to his face from the largest object in the centre of the frame?  Heck knows, but there were even previous frames where more of his face was showing and it didn't choose those times to change focus....

Here's the video linked to that time - judge it for yourself...  

That's an AF problem right there.  People tend to think that Canon PDAF or Sony eye-detect PDAF are perfect but in reality they stuff up from time to time, and they tend to think that GH5 is completely useless when it actually gets things right quite a large percentage of the time.  

I've seen shots in vlogs where Canon PDAF cameras just randomly focus on the background when the persons face was visible the whole time.  They're rare, but I've seen at least two that made it to the final edit - we can only guess how many others ended up being cut. 

Any methodology that quantifies AF performance would be useless if it ignored the lack-of-reliability problem (because it would declare the GH5 AF to be great when it's obviously not) and it would be wrong if it gave Canon and Sony a perfect score when they obviously aren't quite there, despite being impressively close.

Sure, you can quantify some aspects of AF performance, but to be even remotely useful, you'd have to test so many variables and some of them would require such incredibly large sample sizes that it just wouldn't be practical.

Personally, I'd really appreciate the extra digital zoom capabilities, but for shooting 1080p (as I do) the 6K sensors are just as good and most cameras don't give you the digital zoom options that I'd really like, so the resolution of the sensor is secondary in that sense.

Also, if the battery life is crap and it overheats, then it's giving me zero footage rather than even sub-optimal footage, a pretty fundamental issue.

The other issue is that if you're using the sensor to get a 4x digital crop (1080p --> 8K) then your lenses will be by far the limit to the quality rather than the sensor.  You might find that a 6K sensor upscaled to 8K has the same level of fine detail as an 8K sensor without scaling.  

17 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I still film and edit everything in 4K because there's really no reason not to.

Assuming you have a fast enough machine.  Many people would argue that any decent machine can edit 4K, but with many cameras shifting to IPB, 10-bit, h265, decoding that footage in real-time is no small feat at all.

If I end up with a GH6, which lacks the 2x zoom function from the GH5, then I'd probably just program a mode to be 4K 1:1 and swap to that and then crop in post.  Hardly ideal, but would give me a bit more reach and still be downsampled to 1080p.  

8K (and more!) seems to be coming, if we want it or not.  How important is it to you and what would you use it for?

8 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

Poor AF?  I’ve heard it’s usuable

Unusable is (normally) a word that is relatively useless because:

1. It says that the AF performance falls below some specific threshold of performance that is not quantified and isn't disclosed, so there's no way to know if it will be good enough for your needs.  I have determined that Canon and Sony AF is unusable for my needs (seriously - I'm not being dramatic) and I use MF because of that.
2. The word is normally used by people that mostly shoot their mouths off online, but rarely shoot anything other than camera tests (if they shoot at all!) 🙂 

6 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I can't help but feel like we're moving backwards when overheating is an issue that keeps creeping back in.

Stop with the 6 or 8K resolution nonsense and just put out a camera that can do 4K 60p without overheating. It's not rocket science.

If only!

The primary purpose for 8K cameras is to sell 8K TVs, so there's no way they're going to let overheating of 8K MILC cameras get in the way of selling 200 million TVs each year!

5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Yup. XH2 and XH2S.

I was OK with that and it kind of made sense ie, pay for and bolt on a fan if you want or need and if you don’t, well then you ain’t spending your hard-earned unnecessarily, plus smaller and lighter unit without.

Give me built in or bolt on ever time, ie, anything without is a no go for me these days.

I do like the form factor of the XT but the simple reality is it’s not the right tool for the job for me.

It there any chance they'll release one for this camera?  The giveaway might be the little port that it plugs into...

5 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Pretty cool, sounds like downsampled 8k to 6k isn't that feasible yet. I still think 8k is overkill for both video and photo. 6k sensors are awesome. 

Considering that 8K is 16x the data of 1080p, and 6K is only about 8x the data of 1080p, there's quite a substantial difference.  

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Hmmm... why does this news sound familiar? 🤔 😉

 

 https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/66545-is-atomos-going-to-follow-in-blackmagics-footsteps-and-create-a-cinema-camera-as-well-they-just-announced-an-8k-sensor/ 

 

My bad!  

I didn't see the thread when you posted it.

Nothing to see here, please move along....

9 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

"Fujifilm says the camera can shoot 6.2K/30 video for 90 minutes or 4K/60p for 60 minutes at 25°C (77°F); these numbers drop significantly at higher temperatures, and there's no option to add a fan to compensate".

And with that sentence, it died for me.

My typical shooting temps are anything from 20-40 degrees C and some of my ceremonies & speeches can go over 1 hour.

No fan. Dead to me.

I could for this longer form stuff use 6k 25p, but still, those times are for 25c and not the 40+ and direct sunlight I can be working in.

Why oh why oh why Fuji did you not keep this tilt LCD that both the XT3 and XH1 had with the XH2?!

XF30 stays in the shopping basket.

Was it Fuji that had a screw-on fan that attached to the back of the camera and took power from the camera?  or am I remembering another brand?

31 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Portability is MASSIVE. I can't...or rather am no longer prepared to get out of the car, sometimes parked 100's of metres away, and make anything but one single trip to or from the church. It's my new rule of thumb that if I cannot carry everything in one single direction whilst still operating at least one bit of kit, I don't need or want it.

I think this is an aspect that gets overlooked by people that aren't out filming on their feet all day.

My own equivalent is that I have to be able to hold my camera in-hand for a whole day, only resting during breaks for food and bathrooms etc.  If it's not in my hand then it's not ready to film and so I miss shots and we all know that even barely usable footage is still better than the shot you didn't get.  This is one of the reasons I sold my Sigma 18-35, it was just too heavy.

The press release doesn't say a whole lot: https://company-announcements.afr.com/asx/ams/0f93042b-44f6-11ed-810a-2616002949eb.pdf

Atomos states that:

• "it has completed development of a world class 8K video sensor to allow video cameras to record in 8K ultra high resolution"
• they "acquired the intellectual property rights and technical team from broadcast equipment firm, Grass Valley five years ago to develop a leading-edge 8K video sensor"
• and, they are "actively exploring opportunities for commercialisation and is in discussion with several camera makers who are showing great interest"

Does anyone know anything about this?  @androidlad perhaps?

Could this mean that cameras without the Sony sensor look might be forthcoming?

Could Atomos be moving into the camera industry?  Their external recorders are what, 70% of a camera already - just lacking a sensor and some mics and chips to connect everything up?

Remember kids...  when venturing into new camera territory always wear your protective equipment - you never know what dangers lurk in the dark...

Has anyone seen a glimpse of the dreaded hammer?

2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I can't possibly understand why a person would want to use a Nagra D in late 2022, for anything than purely nostalgic purposes. 

As practically speaking a cheap Zoom F8n would be massively superior to use on a production. 

I'd take a 20-bit in-camera audio over a 16-bit one any day...  plus the preamps are still likely to be better than most MILCs!

But "on a production" really is the differentiating factor, considering that my production is me out in the jungle (urban or otherwise) waving about 1.5kg of camera equipment around and generally hoping not to stick out too much 🙂 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

ah well, nobody who is a Sound Recordist has been recording in 16bit this decade or last decade! 

It was only a relatively short period in history when 16bit recording was a thing, during the era of DAT recording? (although, right at the end of the DAT era then a few could do 24bit to DAT tapes)

Even the original Zaxcom Deva could record 24bit. Heck, the Nagra D could do 24bit! (released in 1992! well, 20bit, but later updated to 24bit)

https://www.nagraaudio.com/product/nagra-d-and-dii/

https://www.stereophile.com/hirezplayers/461/index.html

https://www.nagraaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/NAGRA_DII1.pdf

http://www.stardustfilm.com/Articles/Gangs Of New York.htm

 Photos of the Nagra D :

https://www.therookies.co/entries/17133

 

If we put a Nagra and a GH5 into a particle accelerator and smash them together do you think that would work?

I mean, surely 1992 tech could fit inside the 2017 GH5??? 🙂 

26 minutes ago, canonlyme said:

I know it's not that relevant anymore because few people shoot the g7/g85/gx80 but I think the AVCHD is being slept on compared to the regular mp4 (sorry for calling it h264, both seem to be h264 in the end). 

I'm still using my GX85 as my pocket cam for small outings and it will be my backup camera for bigger trips with my GH5.

While not being the best image quality outright, it's a pocketable fully-manual camera (with focus and exposure assist tools!) MILC with 4K 100Mbps codec, IBIS, and a tilt-screen plus an EVF, it's still one hell of a package.

6 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Gotta love Austin Powers. Such a groovy attitude and humour. He would not be the best operator for a digital blolex substitute for sure. He would shag it rotten. Awful, especially that  no contestant is providing global shutter. Humor makes us smile, as Grimor did. Sincerity makes us think. So all good. We appreciate camera efforts and are thrilled about it. Btw, the 2/3rd sensor rasperry pi camera should be looked into. It has been a while since their last status message.

But what it did make me think of was that maybe someone else should put a much nicer sensor on a board and then see about getting a RAW signal off that.

Can you buy sensors from Fairchild individually?

6 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Gotta love Austin Powers. Such a groovy attitude and humour. He would not be the best operator for a digital blolex substitute for sure. He would shag it rotten. Awful, especially that  no contestant is providing global shutter. Humor makes us smile, as Grimor did. Sincerity makes us think. So all good. We appreciate camera efforts and are thrilled about it. Btw, the 2/3rd sensor rasperry pi camera should be looked into. It has been a while since their last status message.

I did contemplate the Raspberry Pi camera when the RAW hack came out, but I realised that it doesn't matter if it gets a RAW hack or not, the hack won't improve its limited DR, ISO performance, and the fact that you'd have to go DIY on the colour science.

If I learned anything from the Alexa 35 release, it was that ARRI have an entire department just dedicated to tuning the sensor, and another entire department dedicated to processing the data that comes off that sensor, and both of those happen before the ARRI-RAW data is written to the card.  Who is doing that on the Raspberry Pi camera?  Some engineer who probably doesn't know anything about imaging except for implementing the standard circuit that the sensor manufacturer put in the spec sheet.

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

One thing though that IS annoying me about Sony is that they're becoming more insular. That certain features are becoming dependent on using Sony lenses, Sony software, etc. feels like a move in the wrong direction. You can argue that it's necessary to achieve some of these features but, for example, I don't see a valid reason why they can't work with Sigma or Tamron to ensure their most popular lenses work with things like focus breathing compensation. It wasn't long ago that Sony relied on them to beef up their lens selection and a lot of people bought into it because of them. 

I think that's a direction that many dominant businesses are going - IIRC it's often called a "walled garden" or "closed ecosystem".  

Essentially, by making people buy everything from you, you can make your products shittier and people will still stay because you've made it harder to leave.  If Sony makes their cameras work with other lens manufacturers then you can take your lenses with you to your new system, but if you own Sony everything then there's more things to re-buy, and therefore, a higher cost to switch brands.

10 hours ago, tupp said:

It's one thing to criticize the indomitable, powerful giants such as Canon, Sony, Fuji, Blackmagic, etc., but it seems distasteful to pick on a couple of little guys with scarce resources making bold, impressive strides (regardless of their eccentricities).

In addition to my previous comment, I do recognise the enormous effort it would have taken for Cinemartin to get anywhere close to a working prototype, let alone close to a finished product.  However, that doesn't mean that they are exempt from criticism or having fun made out of them.  

Not being able to take a joke or two for what they are is a character flaw that is quite counter-productive.

10 hours ago, tupp said:

Not sure how one could come to such a notion from my post.

It looks like quite a lot of people took that from your post.  I definitely did.

I also found the joke amusing too.

8 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

@kye's question was whether 32 bit float gives you headroom in the event you need it, not whether 24 bit is sufficient when you're on a set with a dedicated sound guy. (The answer is yes, btw. You're only limited by your microphone, as there isn't anything on earth that is loud enough to distort 32 bit audio. As long as the sound isn't too loud for your microphone you're good to go.)

That's what I was asking, but to put it further into perspective for @IronFilm, I was thinking about 32 vs 16-bit audio, not 24-bit, as cameras only do 16-bit!  I know my wallet could afford an external recorder, but the size of my rig definitely can't.

Of course, the question is quite theoretical as the chances that a camera implements 32-bit would have to be pretty darn low I'd say!

8 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Aftern hearing about this company in another topic after a few years, they've released some software to help people shooting cDNG. I've not yet tested it, but it looks pretty good. Essentially it's just playback and light raw controls for now, but their roadmap suggests they're working on exporting to ProRes, which will be great for cameras like the Sigma FP, that only record uncompressed.

https://www.octopuscinema.com/wiki/index.php?title=OCTOPUS_RAW_Player#Installer

Interesting and potentially a way to eliminate a serious annoyance / workflow limitation.

Crimson Engine did a video recently talking about the things that the market actually wants in a cinema camera, and one item he mentioned was that many formats aren't playable in the OS, so I take that to indicate that there are a decent number of people out there that care about this aspect.