jax_rox

The menu in the Sony's is so extensive you can nail canon colors if you try. The only real problem it has is the overheating but if people do short form the a6300 beats to the dust the 80D. Canon should get rid of the viewfinder and tuck there an EVF for a start.

Don't forget - the FS700 cost the same as the FS7 when it was released, and the firmware upgrade was paid as well.
The FS5 is $3k cheaper than an FS700 at release + paid raw upgrade.
In addition, Sony aren't going to give you F5 quality in a $5k camera + raw/recorder. Their plan with the FS700 was to get people to buy their off-board raw unit and that didn't work out so well. 
I think that's also why the form factor is the way it is. It's a C100 competitor at its core. 4k is a bonus. Not only that, Sony has 4k TVs they want to sell, and by bolstering their entire camera range with 4k, it gives an extra incentive for people to buy 4k TVs. 
If you want proper 4k acquisition, Sony want you to buy an FS7, F5 or F55

I disagree personally. I would rather shoot ProRes if I'm doing the editing - but hey, to each their own. I'd prefer to shoot Alexa at 2k ProRes 422HQ than the RED One's Redcode @ 4k - but hey.
I'm not sure how you would leave it on when you need to change a battery..? I'm not sure what you shoot, or how you shoot, but it is annoying/takes some getting used to, to plan your battery changes, and swap out when a battery may still have up to 25%+ left to ensure you won't need to swap between takes, or just before a take. Not to mention it sucks significantly more power than say an Epic.
Also, sure you get a picture... but there's a big ugly RED logo on top of it - hardly easy to frame, expose and set focus...
Anyway
Is the F3 too big as well, or just not interested because 'Sony'?
So why not go for one of the many other options? Or still too big?
I'm not sure if this is to direct your purchase decision, or just a general discussion... I don't mind the FS700 coupled with a Shogun (though I don't like the image straight out of camera) but overall I'd probably go with the A7sII. Personally have never had an issue with Sony colours.

Not sure if you've ever used a RED One, but it is one of, if not the most, frustrating camera (that was) around :P.
Seriously - waiting up to two minutes for a camera to boot up every single time is... frustrating to say the least. On paper, it looks like a pretty viable option, but in reality....
Plus, at least the URSA can shoot to ProRes.
I don't personally think the RED One is worth it in today's camera environment. URSA's at least relatively current technology - and current model, so there's more support.
You'd be better off with a Sony F3 IMO unless you desperately need raw or 4k...

That's exactly what a waveform tells you, except that it tells you exactly where the exposure is sitting, with much more detail and accuracy than a 3 or 5 step False Colour. I will say I tend to use False Colour more as a quick reference/check, but Waveform is important and I use it a lot in digital (obviously neither are of any use in film).
My recommendation would be to at least buy a light meter, and then use at least one of either False Colour or Waveform - preferably both.
The hard part about using neither is you have to put a lot of faith in what your monitor is telling you and unless you've calibrated it yourself, you can't really do that. Also, using a combination of the above three (false colour, waveform, light meter) you have an exact idea of where your exposure is sitting. Without that, you won't know. You might be able to get some kind of idea of where your skin is sitting if you set your zebras correctly, but it's far from ideal.

Spoke to Panasonic reps this week about the Varicam LT. Mentioned the GH5. Was told 'if there is a GH5, the Japanese engineers are very tight lipped about it - as far as we know, there is no GH5 yet. That being said, if there was an announcement, it would be much more likely to be at a Photokina than NAB'.

I bought one for $1500 and it was a great investment. I use the 10-bit 422 out with my Shogun.  Great image, great camera. For the price - pretty impressive.

Considering the FS5 is 3-4x the price, the F3 image is on-par, if not better, and easier to use. Of course, the FS5 has 4k, but not super great 4k.
The PL mount is great, thought there's not a lot of affordable PL glass out there (unless you count $5k/lens as affordable), but I have Nikon and EF adapters. I use Nikon mostly with AI glass - but I think the F3 particularly shines with a set of CP2s or Ultra Primes on it (see if you can get a budget to hire them ;))

Canon just run differently to Sony because they are the dominant incumbent. Sony have to do things very differently if they intend to gain any sort of coverage or market share.
If the A7s was still the 'top of the line' of the Sony alpha lineup, it would be starting to dwindle down. As it is, there's plenty of talk about the A7sII, and when they release the A7III there'll be even more talk about that.
If you're going to be the insurgent company, you need to do things differently if you're going to make a dent or a difference.
Canon should take a leaf out of Sony's book really, IMO, when it comes to their prosumer video line-up.

The F5 is surprisingly affordable, even brand new at the moment. I think the advent of the Varicam LT, as well as whatever NAB will bring will probably put a bit of pressure on the F5.

The F5 is a truly awesome camera - I think it's almost the perfect mid-range owner/operator camera when you consider it's wealth of features, image, 4k ability, ISO performance, lens mount adaptability etc. etc.
Will be interesting to see how the LT goes in the market though.

I bought one for $1500 and it was a great investment. I use the 10-bit 422 out with my Shogun.  Great image, great camera. For the price - pretty impressive.

Considering the FS5 is 3-4x the price, the F3 image is on-par, if not better, and easier to use. Of course, the FS5 has 4k, but not super great 4k.
The PL mount is great, thought there's not a lot of affordable PL glass out there (unless you count $5k/lens as affordable), but I have Nikon and EF adapters. I use Nikon mostly with AI glass - but I think the F3 particularly shines with a set of CP2s or Ultra Primes on it (see if you can get a budget to hire them ;))

Set your white balance properly.
And - seriously don't shoot Slog if you can't grade it. You're not forced to shoot it - you don't have to shoot it, it's a neat little extra feature the camera has.
So don't shoot it if you can't grade it. I just got back from a shoot which was quick turnaround (so no time to grade) - and I shot with Picture Profile off. The footage looks great - the colours are nice, skin tones are fine.
Experiment with what works for you and your project(s).
When the Alexa came out, people either got their footage graded, or they shot REC709. There were plenty of TV shows at the start shooting REC709 in order for an easier and quicker post/grade process when they first switched to the Alexa.

The CION has no drawcard. It's much more expensive than offerings from BM, and the only real difference is the form factor. The image is okay, but not 'blow me out of the water, especially at this price' good. The Blackmagic image is not 'blow me out of the water' good either, but at the price, it's pretty damn good.
 

Announcement Friday 25th... Actual product to be delivered early 2018 with a bunch of firmware bugs..... Stable firmware release and bugs fixed by sometime in 2019.
I joke... But only kinda

Hey - I'm no Blackmagic lover, but even I can see that if you expose your shots properly both cameras are entirely usable. All cameras have their flaws, and let's be real - the Epic is (or was) $30k just for the brain versus the URSA which is what - $6k? (can't keep up with BM's pricing these days) So you'd hope there's going to be a difference.
All I'm saying is - despite the fact that REDs have been used on countless high end productions over the past 8 years, it's not like the REDs are flawless. RED have suffered immensely from corrupt files, camera crashes, high amounts of noise (especially early releases of Dragon), and overall unreliability - not to mention overheating and the noisy fan, boot up times on the RED One, buggy firmware releases etc. etc.
I once ACd on a RED that had to be re-booted about every 3 hours because it would just shit itself. Then there's the REDs that wouldn't boot up unless you plugged the VF Lemo cable in, pressed the red button, pulled it out, pressed the red button again, and then plugged it back in...
You can get great images out of a RED, and many of its bugs have been ironed out over firmware and hardware upgrades... But to suggest that it hasn't had its problems is disingenuous - especially when they've been out in the wild for about 8 years... unlike BM

Yeah - sounds like you are talking about RED!
 

Hey - I'm no Blackmagic lover, but even I can see that if you expose your shots properly both cameras are entirely usable. All cameras have their flaws, and let's be real - the Epic is (or was) $30k just for the brain versus the URSA which is what - $6k? (can't keep up with BM's pricing these days) So you'd hope there's going to be a difference.
All I'm saying is - despite the fact that REDs have been used on countless high end productions over the past 8 years, it's not like the REDs are flawless. RED have suffered immensely from corrupt files, camera crashes, high amounts of noise (especially early releases of Dragon), and overall unreliability - not to mention overheating and the noisy fan, boot up times on the RED One, buggy firmware releases etc. etc.
I once ACd on a RED that had to be re-booted about every 3 hours because it would just shit itself. Then there's the REDs that wouldn't boot up unless you plugged the VF Lemo cable in, pressed the red button, pulled it out, pressed the red button again, and then plugged it back in...
You can get great images out of a RED, and many of its bugs have been ironed out over firmware and hardware upgrades... But to suggest that it hasn't had its problems is disingenuous - especially when they've been out in the wild for about 8 years... unlike BM

Hey - I'm no Blackmagic lover, but even I can see that if you expose your shots properly both cameras are entirely usable. All cameras have their flaws, and let's be real - the Epic is (or was) $30k just for the brain versus the URSA which is what - $6k? (can't keep up with BM's pricing these days) So you'd hope there's going to be a difference.
All I'm saying is - despite the fact that REDs have been used on countless high end productions over the past 8 years, it's not like the REDs are flawless. RED have suffered immensely from corrupt files, camera crashes, high amounts of noise (especially early releases of Dragon), and overall unreliability - not to mention overheating and the noisy fan, boot up times on the RED One, buggy firmware releases etc. etc.
I once ACd on a RED that had to be re-booted about every 3 hours because it would just shit itself. Then there's the REDs that wouldn't boot up unless you plugged the VF Lemo cable in, pressed the red button, pulled it out, pressed the red button again, and then plugged it back in...
You can get great images out of a RED, and many of its bugs have been ironed out over firmware and hardware upgrades... But to suggest that it hasn't had its problems is disingenuous - especially when they've been out in the wild for about 8 years... unlike BM

Hey - I'm no Blackmagic lover, but even I can see that if you expose your shots properly both cameras are entirely usable. All cameras have their flaws, and let's be real - the Epic is (or was) $30k just for the brain versus the URSA which is what - $6k? (can't keep up with BM's pricing these days) So you'd hope there's going to be a difference.
All I'm saying is - despite the fact that REDs have been used on countless high end productions over the past 8 years, it's not like the REDs are flawless. RED have suffered immensely from corrupt files, camera crashes, high amounts of noise (especially early releases of Dragon), and overall unreliability - not to mention overheating and the noisy fan, boot up times on the RED One, buggy firmware releases etc. etc.
I once ACd on a RED that had to be re-booted about every 3 hours because it would just shit itself. Then there's the REDs that wouldn't boot up unless you plugged the VF Lemo cable in, pressed the red button, pulled it out, pressed the red button again, and then plugged it back in...
You can get great images out of a RED, and many of its bugs have been ironed out over firmware and hardware upgrades... But to suggest that it hasn't had its problems is disingenuous - especially when they've been out in the wild for about 8 years... unlike BM

I'd love to see the numbers. Show me the sales graphs that show that at the time that GH4 and A7s sales were showing inclines, that 5D and C100 sales were showing rapid declines... And then the numbers that show the declining 5D and C100 sales having any effect on Canon's overall bottom line.
The video enthusiast market is certainly very vocal on the internet - but those who nitpick between the differences between GH4, A7s and 5Ds are few in comparison to the masses who buy on brand. Companies who want to get into video go out and buy Canons because of their brand. Of course you can't ride on branding forever - and eventually, if they fail to compete, others will overtake. But others haven't overtaken for the masses yet - only for the few who are very vocal on the internet, but who don't necessarily translate into large sales numbers.
Correct me if I'm wrong - I'll happily eat my words if you can show me the graphs. I don't really care - I don't shoot Canon and was never happy with the video out of my Canon SLR even for the short time I had it; even though there was nothing better around at the time. They have their market and they play to it. And they play to it well. That's fine - I've got my A7s. But so many talk about Canon as if it's Canon's duty to provide them with the camera they want, regardless of Canon's position in the market, or their other product offerings. Canon has no debt to you, and no reason to cannibalise entire product lines and large profits for some sort of d**k measuring competition, or to ensure they continue to be thought of as 'the best' in a comparatively small number of people's minds.
And that's fine - there are plenty of other options - for both hybrids, straight SLRs and dedicated video cameras. But I just don't understand why everyone gets so upset when Canon releases a new camera and it isn't 8k ProRes444 (but the option of 422) internal in a DSLR form, with an optional handle, and XLR-ins with decent pre-amps, and peaking and zebras, and an EVF and 75MP pictures, and 4million ISO for <$3k. It's not going to happen anytime soon no matter how many people chime in with 'don't worry, Canon are the best - their next camera will definitely be the beast we all want'.

Sony implementing a menu system that's easy to understand and makes sense from a user perspective WOULD be groundbreaking!!!
They tried to hard to go the Alexa-style menu route with the F5/55 and failed so, so miserably

Sony implementing a menu system that's easy to understand and makes sense from a user perspective WOULD be groundbreaking!!!
They tried to hard to go the Alexa-style menu route with the F5/55 and failed so, so miserably

The device you want exists in the K1M. It just requires a little bit of extra work for it to attach. Sony have already given you 2 more options than any other DSLR manufacturer! And you complain because one of the options is a little brittle, and you can't use the device that attaches via a small area of electric contact points as a second handle..?

Sony implementing a menu system that's easy to understand and makes sense from a user perspective WOULD be groundbreaking!!!
They tried to hard to go the Alexa-style menu route with the F5/55 and failed so, so miserably

This whole thread seems to me to be another case of people talking about an issue that they haven't experienced themselves, because they'd rather talk around and around about something that has little to no consequence to them, rather than go out and actually shoot landscapes.

Take the A7rII out and shoot some landscapes. Don't take some awful, 'I've never even held an SLR before' photos off the internet and proclaim 'See! I TOLD you'. Why not go out and take some real-world test shots, with real-world conditions and then come back and say 'well the A7rII has this issue, but here's how I fixed it' OR 'any ideas how to fix this?'

Instead, there's a bunch of crappy photos posted and a small number of people saying 'well if inexperienced newbies can't get good quality, then it just isn't worth buying' and disparaging any and everyone who posts saying 'hey, look at these photos - you actually CAN get great landscapes out of an A7rII' by saying 'yeah well that person probably doesn't know what they're talking about'

Sometimes I wonder if people here are negative for the sake of being negative. I also wonder if you have any product that is 110% perfect?

The GH4 is much deeper and heftier (having used both cameras), doesn't have room taken up inside its body for IBIS, and it's sensor is less than half the size. If the Sony A7rII had a 4/3" sensor, I'm sure it would be a lot easier to implement more features - or at least keep it from overheating at 4k.
I actually don't care about what it technically has or doesn't have. I've used all the cameras mentioned here, and I can tell you that the Blackmagic is the worst of all of them for overheating. 
I was forced to attempt to shoot a doco with the pocket as production wouldn't spring for anything else, and we needed a number of cameras. Apart from it being the totally wrong form factor for shooting when not on a tripod... The thing would heat up insanely.
 
So it is marginally bigger. I still don't really get this one - Sony made a design decision based on how big they want their screen to be, where they want it, and decided they didn't want even a small amount of extra bulk, or alternately even a small reduction in screen size.
I just don't understand how this is a 'big problem'. The screen tilts instead of flipping out - if that feature is THE killer feature you need to have, then this camera isn't for you..?
Except that's an amalgamation of features from a number of different camera companies. There isn't a single camera in even a similar price range that offers 10-bit 4k HDMI out, internal 4k 8-bit 4:2:0, Dual-pixel AF, super battery life, uncompressed raw stills, colour science as good as Canon (another thing I don't understand), on-sensor stabilisation as good as an Olympus and the ergonomics of a GH4 - all with a full frame sensor.
You can say 'I wish the IBIS was as good as Olympus,' you can say 'I wish the colour science was as great as Canon,' you can say 'I wish the battery life was better,' you can say 'I wish it had 10-bit.' 
You can say all those things seperately. You can't say 'this camera is awful/nowhere near as good as it could be because Canon has better colour science, better AF, and better battery life, Olympus has better IBIS, the GH4 has 4k that doesn't overheat and the Blackmagic has internal 10-bit ProRes, so why is it that the Sony doesn't have every single one of these features??'
Especially when most of the cameras you're talking about have sensors that are less than half the size, in bodies that are just as big, if not bigger than that of the a7rII (with the exception of the Blackmagic - but again, its battery life is awful, heats up a lot, its sensor is tiny and it doesn't do 4k).
 
Are you seriously suggesting that there shouldn't be a camera on the market at the moment because none of them are perfect? Therefore, if a camera isn't perfect (or at least perfect to your specifications), then there's no point in making any cameras until it's physically possible to do so?
Or are you suggesting that Sony should make a camera that fulfills all your expectations and specifications, but is a big black box that doesn't have vast market appeal because it's ugly, big and heavy...?
It's funny how some people forget that camera manufacturers aren't making cameras specifically for YOU
I just looked on the Sony store website and the major  features listed before internal 4k were:
-42.4 megapixel backlit sensor (keep in mind that the Sony website lists this as 'Digital E-mount 42.4 Mega Pixel Camera Body' rather than '4k internal Camera body')
-Fast Hybrid AF system with 399-point wide focal plane phase-detection AF coverage for sharp focus
-5-axis image stabilisation reduces blur for stills and movies - making every shot crystal clear
-Experience high sensitivity of up to ISO 102400*3 with low-noise performance and wide dynamic range

EVen on the Sony Digital Imagine global website, it lists these before internal 4k:
-New back-illuminated full-frame CMOS sensor
-High-speed BIONZ XTMimage processing engine
-All FE lenses maximize resolution
I appreciate for you that the headline feature may be internal 4k, but for Sony, it's big feature #5 in a long list. It's not all that long ago that Canon cameras crapped out in the same way simply recording HD. My T2i which was bought for the sole purpose of shooting video would overheat pretty easily. In certain conditions, it would start overheating before it reached it's 12 minute limit, especially if it had been on for a little while. That's HD! And everyone praised Canon for how great they were, and how great the video was, and how the overheating and time limit was annoying, but you could work around it and it was worth working around.
Now Sony brings out internal 4k with incredible quality, Slog in XAVC-s, coupled with everything else that this camera offers and it's some sort of travesty because under certain conditions, the camera sometimes overheats when shooting 4k.
Please.
Not that long ago, many people including myself were suggesting it was going to be unlikely that Sony would even have internal 4k in the first place in this camera. 
If it's really that much of a killer, wait til the A7sII