deezid

20 hours ago, FHDcrew said:

From what I’ve heard the GH5 II can have sharpening completely disabled, unlike most Panasonic cameras. 

The older S Series cameras and GH5II and BGH1 are the only Lumix cameras with 0 sharpening in V-Log (L).
The GH6 and now S5II look much worse again in that regard.

4 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

I would love to see a colour chart shot with the same lens, lighting and settings on each in V-Log. There seems to be considerable variation in colour between some Panasonic models (GH series) and I'm wondering if the same is true for S5 and S5II

The color rendering, especially skin tones has been improved quite a bit in V-Log between the old S Series and S5II.
Much warmer skin tones.

However, the banding in near black areas (very similar to OLEDs after a bad Calman calibration) and also the heavy sharpening (similar to GH6) are quite concerning.

8 hours ago, D Verco said:

Either way, the xh2s sensor is probably the best on the market under 8k

While the image processing on this camera even falls behind Sony...
Also 16 stops of patch range are quite common, even with 12 bit ADC.

https://www.cined.com/panasonic-lumix-s5-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/
https://www.cined.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/
 

On 12/1/2022 at 11:17 AM, Beritar said:

This is not my video, but I had every GH cameras, the S1 and S5 and some Sony cameras (including the A7SIII, the champion of mushy details at very high ISO), so I can see when temporal noise reduction is used (and its intensity).

I don't use V-log in low light a lot so I was very surprised to see so much noise reduction in profile like Natural and Cine-V with the lowest NR value (-5), these profiles was good at keeping details below ISO 800 without so much noise before.
But on the GH6 although it looks very clean compared to the GH5 and G9, the details are not there anymore. There is a bit less noise reduction in V-log, but still too much. CineD stated that the dynamic range of V-log in the GH6 H265 was so good because of the noise reduction :

"But looking at the noise floor in the waveform plot it seems that it also has a lot more noise processing going on internally which cannot be turned “OFF”."

They also said the Prores HQ was better at keeping the "raw" sensor image, so I swapped my CFexpress from my S1 to put in my GH6 and indeed there is less noise reduction but the files are huge and you can't use them right of the bat without processing them in your video editor. From what I've seen only the Raw external Prores is noise processing free.
You can see the difference at 13m45s :

Do you use H265, Prores HQ or raw ? Because this is not my experience at all about the chroma details with the H265 codec, my S1 keeps a lot more details than my GH6 in low light. The Prores HQ is better and retains more details but certainly not more than the S1 or the S5.

Look at the guy's hairs at 0m38s (V-log profile was used), there is far less noise processing on the GH5 and S5, the GH5 has too much noise but also less noise reduction :

 

The GH6 is doing a very good job at preserving details but we can clearly see a lot of noise reduction are used, it look like oil painting (though I can't see how a 25MP M43 sensor could do better without using a lot of noise reduction).

Using V-Log and internal ProRes, the amount of noise reduction is by far the least I've seen on any Lumix camera, especially chroma NR. Which also means that it outperforms the S Series when it comes to capturing chroma detail below middle gray (important for skin, foliage etc). On the S Series I can achieve the same using external BRAW, but that comes with a culprit: strong sharpening and spatial luma filtering.

Also I really don't think the second video was shot using V-Log at all, the sharpening halos on the S5 footage alone are a huge give away of using a regular sRGB/Rec709 profile with standard settings, or someone played around with the NR/sharpening settings to manipulate the outcome. The S5 shooting V-Log with default settings doesn't show any sharpening artefacts.

 

3 hours ago, Beritar said:

Maybe on the S1H, but not on the S5 and S1. The 4K of the GH6 is very clean compared to the GH5 but it uses more noise reduction, I compared with the GH5 and G9, and while the GH6 looks better with far less noise, there is less details. 
You can see the difference in this video : 

The 5,7K is really good though, there is better details and less noise reduction, too bad for the small crop, and the IBIS is bit weaker than on 4K.

1st
Not using sRGB/Rec709 profiles here

2nd
Used standard settings? Sharpening/NR are super aggressive with standard settings with Rec709 profiles, which is definitely visible in your Video. Looks like when I push NR all the way up in V-Log, super mushy.

3rd
With V-Log the amount of noise reduction by default is super low, much lower than on the S series line up as well. There's tons of Chroma detail even in shadows which isn't really the case on the S series and other Lumix cameras.

5 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

And a true zero sharpening option for the "organic image".

Hoping for an update to the GH6 for that 🙂
Thankfully the GH5 II also barely has any NR, so the image won't be as mushy as on the GH5s or A7sIII/FX3.

There's way less NR on the GH6 than on the S1H even when shooting V-Log and even less so when shooting ProRes.
Really confused about the experiences here, was NR set to lowest (0) 😅

4 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

@deezid Are you seeing sharpening artifacts even with non-native glass? I ask because I know that there is unavoidable in-camera sharpening when using Lumix lenses. But when using adapted glass on a Speedbooster I don't notice objectionable sharpening in the files, even with sharp lenses stopped down.

Yes, the oversharpening is definitely showing with every kind of lens I tried.
I really hope for a lower sharpening setting with a newer firmware update. Already talked to Panasonic about this issue.

These slashcam charts really show how bad it is
GH5 II


GH6



The GH6 looks quite crispy despite the lens I'm using. Not great, especially with skin, hair, foliage etc.

6 hours ago, Robert Patts said:

Are cameras that shoot PRR not an option? If so , you have the Fuji XH2S with very low RS.  

Not a bad idea. With ProRes RAW all the nasty internal processing is gone. Internal footage is heavily oversharpened and has barely any chroma detail.

3 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I would love to hear more about image quality, also compared to the Lumix S line. Lowlight and absolute dynamic range is a stellar feat of the S line. But cameras like bmmcc, bmcc have great motion, color, awesome color response i  grading. Motion with my bmmcc looks so beautiful, camera motion is top notch. Imagewise I often prefer my bmmcc over my S1, despite its much, much weaker lowlight and HD only compared to the 4k/6k S1.

Would to hear more from @deezid
how well gh6 fares compared to the Lumix S line. He was a great fan of the artefact free cinema worthy image of the full frame Panasonic cameras. And he didnt love the internal image from the Fuji xh2s.

 

The GH6 is my favorite MFT camera atm.
Best processing and color science to me and already asked Panasonic Lumix engineers for an optional Sharpening OFF (maybe -1 sharpening like the S1H did with NR).

To be fair no other MFT cameras but the GH5 II was completely sharpening free and maybe the BMD P4K with CDNG before BRAW became a thing but had heavy Gen 4 color science flaws like gamut clipping.

The S series line up is a bit cleaner, perfect for greenscreen work but color science on the GH6 is definitely better.

The X-H2S doesn't work for me with its heavy chroma filtering, especially in dark areas, but also heavy oversharpening.

12 hours ago, Framed_By_Dan said:

1DC was immediately noticeable when doing the singular comparison, it looks so organic and much less digital compared to the rest.

Lack of sharpening gave it a really smooth image and color science was pretty good.
But the codec is something I never want to deal with in my live again. 😭

S1H


X-2HS

1 hour ago, FHDcrew said:

Wow the XH2S DR looks insane

Very similar to S1H in the test footage I got.
But too oversharpened and too much chroma filtering, especially, but not limited to, in darker areas.

With ProRes RAW this camera looks fantastic though. So it's just a processing issue.

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Surely last thing you want for skin is a ton of contrast and definition exaggerating blemishes and uneven tones. 
 

No such issues with Log and proper display conversions though, ever saw films shot on ARRI?

Poor dude here looks like his liver is failing and he's dealing with a heavy sunburn. Not flattering at all.

Which actually reminds me of Gen 4 Blackmagic footage where lots of work in post was necessary to get skin to look right, also a rather flat Rec709 gamma with gamut clipping issues. BMD Gen 5 Film fixed these issues.

17 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Not seen colour this nice since the Digital Bolex!

Think I may need to pick one up

Quite average look to me.
Heavily baked looking skin tones with barely any definition, same with the foliage. 

Looks like your standard Rec709 flat profile with contrast and Lut added.

I'm sure with HLG and a Log conversion (scene referred), results will be great though. Can do some tests in September. The Sensor is clearly capable, up to 8K75p!

I wonder if this camera had Cinelike D2, which is the only Rec709 profile on Panasonic cameras which doesn't mess with skin.

On 7/16/2022 at 7:01 PM, Jay60p said:

In that case, perhaps a custom LUT could adjust the Fuji dark reds to a darker richer red,
closer to the Canon look.
Beyond my abilities unfortunately.

Impossible to recreate that hasn't been there in the first place with just a lut, some good tracking and color grading skills are necessary to create the illusion of chroma detail/tonality on Fuji cameras.

Sad to see the issue still hasn't been fixed since the X-T3. I also think it's chroma noise reduction related as well, looks like there are tons of spatial chroma filtering applied.

55 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

Beautifully written!

@deezid Awesome to read from you! Bought the S1 two years ago after Andrews article and after your deep dive observations regarding an honest hq cinema image without nasty processing artefacts. Hope to see more sneak peaks of your projects. Your GH4 footage was and is a legendary treat for lovers of the little camera with the big image. "Americana" was the name of the piece. A A7S3, FX3 with the processing of a FX6 would be a uber camera though.

If the A7s3 came with the processing of the FX6 and at least some of its video-related features, there would be no more reason to get any Panasonic nor Blackmagic camera let alone the FX6 at all. 😄

The GH4 was so hard to deal with, shot internally in 8 Bit V-Log L, the banding was insane.
Did some selective debanding on some areas to fix it. I wish I had an external recorder back then. 
The GH5 after was much cleaner but was way oversharpened, had ghosting issues caused by heavy temporal filtering (fixed in mid 2017 via firmware) and seemed to have less DR to me, still kept it until the Pocket 4K came out which was later ruined with BRAW and its quite heavy spatial filtering and sharpening, my original P4K sadly died and had to be replaced with a model that didn't support earlier firmwares. 😭

Since then I've been using the Pocket 6K and later S1H with external BRAW are okish, the higher resolution compensates for the heavy filtering to a certain degree. My new GH6 outperforms both when it comes to texture with its internal ProRes recording, the image basically looks like RAW, almost unfiltered. I love it and used it as my A-camera on my last shoot. 🙂

On 6/9/2022 at 4:30 AM, SRV1981 said:

Interesting in this test it seems the c70 matches better in contrast and brightness. 
 

How is this interesting?
The FX3 and A7sIII are pretty much the full frame 10 bit equivalent to a GoPro when it comes to image processing.
Also usable latitude on these cameras is quite weak while the C70, which doesn't have any oversharpening nor heavy temporal filtering and therefor no smearing nor texture loss, is the best in its class and competes with the likes of the Pocket 6K (HR recovery) and Panasonic S series and even outperforms these ever so slightly with internal RAW.
 

That IMX410 sensor with 12 bit readout (also used in that configuration in the FX9, Panasonic S Series and Zcam F6) is pretty much unrivalled when it comes to color rendering and latitude in its price region.

 Only downside is its slow readout though.

Meh, 14 bit ADC for nothing.
Other cameras with just a 12 bit ADC manage to capture more actual patches, with the Panasonic S series and Blackmagic Pocket 6K up to 16 stops.

18 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

@deezid what do you think of the GH6 1080p versus GH5 for aliasing and softness? Is it as good?

Didn't try it out yet, but sharpening is gone entirely in the 4K modes on the GH6, which now look identical to the 5.7/5.8K recordings. So 1080p may be even better, less processed looking now.

4K and especially 1080p on the GH5 had way too much sharpening applied for my taste. Glad the overprocessing is a thing of the past. 🙂

1 hour ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Not sure what picture profile they were using but I really dislike the highlight roll off in many of the shots. I am going to  guess that it was probably CineD 2 or something other than V-LOG, which from my experience on the S5 and S1, has better roll off .

Not saying I could do better than the videographer who shot this. Just saying that with a lot of cameras this has been one thing that bugs me (probably more than it bugs a lot of other videographers).

It was V-Log. This person did another film with the GH6 which looks just as bad, oversharpened with a horrible highlight roll-off, colors etc. Don't know where to start even, but perfect to promote other manufacturer's cameras instead.

But "cinematic" since the title says so I guess...

Not the camera's fault either, I have a GH6 myself and it has a fantastic video image with a super smooth roll-off with DR Boost On and no sharpening and almost no NR in ProRes. 

On 8/29/2021 at 7:35 PM, TomTheDP said:

The A1 8k is less sharp than the A7S3 4K?

 

Yes, no sharpening, so it appears less sharp, but it also has way more detail and especially texture, since the noise reduction nearly isn't as destructive as on the A7sIII.
A way superior image basically, closer to the Panasonic S5, Blackmagic Pocket 6K etc.

9 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I didn't know the C70 used a lot of noise reduction. The FX6 seems more organic.

The FX6 is probably the better choice if you want it match it with a proper cine camera. This camera has a really nice looking image. 
The C70 looks quite mushy although not as bad as the Pocket 4K (only Braw) or A7sIII (ProRes Raw fixes it).

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

IMHO the only camera that really punches above the rest in terms of dynamic range is the C70.

The S5 (S1H/S5 also) outperform it in usable latitude. Sure IMATEST loves heavily denoised footage like from the A7sIII or C70, but the IQ is quite bad on these cameras in comparison. The Pocket 6K (Pro), S5/S1H/S1 and Komodo are the best cameras in that regard under $10,000. 

Here's a nice exposure comparison chart from Slashcam: