IronFilm
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Posts posted by IronFilm
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Thanks for giving all the extra details in your post!
As so often when people ask for a "mid range" option, it's hopelessly vague! As "mid" depends entirely on where your end points are you measuring from? If you're starting at webcam level and ending at handycam level, then you're looking for a very different answer than someone who starts at FX3 and ends at VENICE!
With your context & background I'd say probably a Sony FX6 or Canon C70 or similar is what you're looking for, as they're the cheapest entry level "pro cameras".
But you also list your budget, so it clearly shows they're well outside your range.
What to do? Step back to a previous generation and get a secondhand pro camera? That would be my immediate first thoughts, as the likes of a Sony FS7 / Sony PMW-F5 / Canon C200 / RED Scarlet / etc are all very very cheap on ebay.
However, it seems that AF is a very high priority for yourself, and unfortunately only the latest generation of pro cameras (such as the FX6) have had decent AF.
So that kills that entire train of thought.
My immediate next thoughts are to go for one of these: FX30, FX3, or S5mk2.
(Fujfilm XH2S is worth considering too, but in my opinion not as good as those first three I listed. Canon is out of the question, because they've decided to go for a closed system with their lens. Nikon Z9 is very nice, but outside your budget. The Nikon Z6mk2 / Zf is nice too & within your budget, but again it lags behind those three I just listed above. However.... the rumor mill is spinning saying the Z6mk3 is only days away from being announced? Panasonic GH6 & G9mk2 are excellent too, but again I'd say be lagging a bit behind the FX30/FX3/S5mk2, however I guess the GH7 is surely coming out this year? Well, "2024")
Sony FX30 is my personal top pick out these three, because from my perspective it has phenomenal low light (just compare it against what we had to work with the ARRIs or a RED Dragon or a Sony PMW-F5 etc, the FX30 does very well!), and would make the perfect B Cam for my Sony FS7 in a way that the FX3 is not. Plus the FX30 is the cheapest out of those three! I half suspect however you'd be wanting even "more" out of your low light. Which thus then cuts down the discussion now to just two:
Sony FX3, basically identical to the FX30 but with the drawbacks of higher cost, lack of compatibility with S35 lens, & shallower depth of field (wellll... some might see the forced shallow DoF as a benefit! But if you're wanting the best low light performance and great autofocus, it's a negative). However, you gain better low light performance overall if you really want to push it there. Worth the drawbacks? Not in my personal opinion, but depends on your perspective / priorities, and I think for you the FX3 likely edges out the FX30.
Panasonic S5mk2, with the release of the mk2 (not just the S5mk2, but the G9mk2 too) then Panasonic finally leaps to the top tier for autofocus performance, on par generally speaking with the best from Sony & Canon. Panasonic also always gives you that polished implementation and reliability that some other brands have struggled with. I'd very much see the Panasonic S5mk2 as comparable to the Sony FX3 but at a much lower price. However.... the S5mk2 is missing a few little details that only pros would likely care about (such as no timecode support in the S5mk2?? wtf Panasonic!! Guess we need to wait for the S1H mk2, ugh), and much more importantly for some: won't smoothly and effortlessly slot into a bigger production also shooting on Sony. As Sony FX6/FX9 (and even still the FS5/FS7) are very popular at the low/mid budget level. If you were still working professionally, then I'd say it is a slam dunk decision to go for a FX3 (or FX30) because of this, & needing to work with others. But because you're just doing it for yourself, then likely the only downside is the somewhat smaller lens selection for L Mount vs E Mount (but L Mount has been getting better and better with more and more options, so I'd no longer see this as the negative it was a few years ago). And the fact you can get the S5mk2 at wholesale pricing then surely makes the S5mk2 the slam dunk decision to go with for you?
(very quick edit: I forgot to mention the a7Smk3, as basically once the FX3 I feel that killed any point for the a7S. But anyway, the a7Smk3 is very similar but with the pro features of the FX3 stripped out. You might not care, and happy to just have "a lower priced FX3")
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https://www.cined.com/camera-foundry-cineback-for-sony-fx3-and-fx30-launched/
We're making cameras smaller, just to make them bigger again.
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8 hours ago, kye said:
Funny.. when I read "Can't see why a rental house would be interested" I interpret that as saying that 'not a single rental house would be interested'. I don't hear 'some would be interested but not enough to make it commercially viable'.
It's like saying 'I can't see why a person would be interested in marrying Jack' but meaning 'only a few dozen people would be interested in marrying Jack'. Poor Jack - he'll be single forever unless dozens of people fall madly in love with him!
True, it's definitely not a statement as strong as saying "Jack will NEVER get married".
Exceptions and oddities always exist.
And yeah, if only a few dozen people out of billions of people on planet earth like Jack, then their odds of getting married is very slim indeed! (plus, will Jake even like them?? Are they even in the same country? Or on the same continent?)
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6 hours ago, kye said:
Here's a video from Natalie Lynn, and is a great example of film-making techniques applied to personal travel videography, and is very emotive in a way that an impartial camera cannot achieve.
and here's an interview and production breakdown of how it was created:
Spoilers: it includes special lighting, she bought a smoke machine, spent a ridiculous amount of time in the edit, and lots of other things. It takes a lot of work to make things look effortless.
Shot with only a Sony a6600! But she's upgraded now to a Sony FX30.
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4 minutes ago, kye said:On 12/4/2023 at 12:57 PM, IronFilm said:
Can't see why a rental house would be interested, when you consider the up front costs + overheads vs how often they could rent this out, then there isn't any sensible price they could rent this out at per day where they could make a profit on it.
And everything about my post there still stands.
(of course I'm not denying that exceptions exist. But it would be very unusual for a camera rental house in the film industry to buy this Kodak camera. I'd be less shocked if they purchased a Kinefinity or ZCam, and then those would be very surprising)
1 minute ago, kye said:Given the track-record of Kodaks business decisions throughout the transition from film to digital, I wouldn't rule anything out in terms of what they might be thinking / hoping for.
HAHA!
1 minute ago, kye said:I would, however, be confident in saying that making it primarily for rental houses would likely be a commercial mistake 🙂
Agreed
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31 minutes ago, BenEricson said:
I'll just repeat what others have said, but a video tap, LCD, and c-mount, make it a very very unique product. There's really no motion picture cameras period that have a video tap that cost under 20k.
The difference between renting a $5K camera vs a $20K camera is kinda irrelevant when it comes to many budgets, and if a rental house already owns a $20K camera, they don't want to massively undercut themselves with a $5K camera unless they have to offer it.
If productions can already get say an Aaton XTR or an ARRI 16SR3 to rent for a shoot, it kills a lot of the reason as to why a rental house should buy a Kodak Super 8mm camera for $5K
That's why this Kodak camera will mainly appeal to buyers of it as their personal camera, and not most rental houses.
Anyway, on the topic of video taps, this was an impressive DIY go at it:
https://optroniceye.tumblr.com/post/118678962762/super-8-video-tap
2 minutes ago, kye said:So, we agree that there might be one unit in a rental house somewhere?
Exceptions will always exist. Of course I can't rule out one could exist. Just like if a person made and sold an overpriced hipster hand cranked film camera then there might be a rental house which gets it, just it would be weird and unusual for them to do so.
My point has always been this is not being made and marketed primarily to rental houses, this is not of interest to them.
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2 hours ago, kye said:
I was suggesting that there might be one. I thought you were saying there wouldn't be any.
When you can count how many there in the world on the fingers of your hands, then that is basically a rounding error that rounds down to zero
Of course exceptions always exist, but I'll ignore those.
2 hours ago, kye said:I wouldn't imagine they would be common, but I did think there would be sufficient demand in the market for the most film-centric rental house in the middle of Hollywood to have at least a single unit.
Nope. The typical camera rental house in hollywood won't have it
Very few will
30 minutes ago, BenEricson said:Most labs in LA or NY could have you scans in a day or two.
But outside LA or NY? This is not happening.
So sure, a very small number of rental houses in major places such as LA or NYC might get it. But in other cities? Munich? Melbourne? Mumbai? Moscow? Madrid? Manila? Montreal? Milan? Miami? Minneapolis? Marseille? Manchester? Medellín? Milwaukee? Montréal? Minsk? Mexico City? Nah, they won't be spending $$$$$ on this ultra niche Super 8mm camera from Kodak.
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1 hour ago, JulioD said:
Just because you don’t think it makes sense doens’t mean there aren’t already people now shooting super 8.
https://www.oldfastglass.com/super-8mm
https://www.pro8mm.com/collections/super-8-camera-rentals
https://kitsplit.com/rent/canon-1014-xl-s-super8-camera-with-zoom-6-5-65mm-f1-4-brooklyn-ny
https://www.sydneysuper8.com.au
Away from the major markets people are more likely to use KitSplit or similar. The last link is a company in Sydney processing super 8 and doing a thriving business. They can’t keep up.
These fall into the categories of:
1) people hiring out old cameras (which they picked up cheap, or have been in their inventory for donkey years. The marginal cost to keep an item in your rental inventory vs acquiring it in the first place is very different maths)
2) private individuals renting out stuff, which is not a rental house
3) a primarily stills camera store which has a sideline in other related stuff, certainly not what we'd regard as "a rental house" in a conventional filmmaking sense
My point stands, if anything, this has strengthened my point with your examples given.
12 minutes ago, kye said:I would imagine there would be a niche larger than you might think.
I think the revival of 35mm still film is a reasonable parallel - it is much easier to shoot digital and emulate it in post with one of the many excellent plugins available. But people like shooting film because it's somehow "authentic".
Noam Kroll shoots a lot on film, as I am sure you're aware, shooting a number of short films on it, and shot this ad on super 8mm: https://noamkroll.com/shooting-super-8mm-red-gemini-for-banana-republic-in-joshua-tree/
Extremely niche, a few individuals.
You'll be able to count on your fingers (probably won't even need your second hand!) how many dedicated camera rental houses in the film industry will worldwide be picking up this Kodak S8 camera to add to their rental inventory
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4 hours ago, zlfan said:
"“Peter Jackson says he has toned down the higher frame rate version of Hobbit sequel The Desolation of Smaug following complaints from audiences and critics about the sharp look of its predecessor.”"
nice pr.
a famous dp cannot have his freedom on artistic exploration.
sad story.
1) Peter Jackson is not a DP
2) even famous DPs have to respond to market forces (and heck, their ability to accurately feel the pulse of the market forces is quite likely a contributing factor why they're a famous DoP)
3 hours ago, zlfan said:where did i say i cannot tell the difference of 24p and 60p.
Earlier you gave an example of a HFR 60fps film, which was actually a 24fps film
54 minutes ago, JulioD said:Gaming has been here for decades. Younger audiences are used to and have seen a lot of HFR.
Several very top shelf filmmakers have TRIED. Digital means there’s no cost difference to shoot HFR.
It failed every time.
It’s not just legacy.
Not "no cost", but very minimal cost vs the overall production budget.
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22 hours ago, kye said:
Maybe some niche rental house in LA?
Perhaps, just because LA is the biggest market for this in the world. But outside LA or another similar major metropolis (such as perhaps NYC) then it just wouldn't work.
22 hours ago, kye said:Even just if folks making music videos wanted to rent it?
Hard to justify ownership of it just on the basis of the low budget rentals from music videos!
15 hours ago, JulioD said:It’s built for rental.
It has a video split. No s8 camera that I know of has ever had one.
c mount interchangeable lenses. Not many had that either.
That means commercials. And music videos.
Commercials and music videos are the life blood of camera rental companies.
Thats exactly where this camera lives. And the types of clients that can pay for it.
How many commercials or higher budget music videos will want to shoot on Super 8mm??
And of those very few which want the Super 8mm look, how many will want the awkward workflow of actual film vs shooting on an ARRI then degrading it down in post? (or some other similar-ish approach, such as shooting with an OG BMPCC or Digital Bolex or Magic Lantern)
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4 hours ago, ac6000cw said:
What about the much cheaper A6700 (which probably has the same sensor as the FX30 and can do 4k60p and 4k120p, but no fan so overheating may be an issue)?
Hell no! Keep away from the a6000 series of cameras for filmmaking, they just are not as reliable as the FX series and lack all the many filmmaking features of the FX series
4 hours ago, stefanocps said:no it is a budget question. i rarely do paid job, do it for my pleasure. so i have a limit for the money i want to invest
then again, if you're not doing it professionally, just go with whatever? So long as you enjoy using it, that's all that matters
6 minutes ago, stefanocps said:I want to have only 1 lens on my camera to do all.
Hmmm... maybe a Sony RX10 IV then? Or Sony FDR-AX700 or Sony PXW-Z90V?
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17 hours ago, Jedi Master said:
It never occurred to me that some people purposely don’t want their films to look realistic. That’s a completely foreign concept to me.
Why do we almost never film only with a normal field of view?
Why do we purposefully distort reality by choosing these range of other focal lengths to film with?
Why do we light scenes in a manner that you're highly unlikely to come across randomly in real life in a natural manner?
Why is 180VR massively unpopular vs conventional films when 180VR is so much "closer to realism"?
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17 hours ago, Jedi Master said:
The funny thing about all this is that if, back in the early 1900s, movie makers adopted another frame rate, say 46 FPS (which Edison advocated), people today would be saying that to simulate emotions and dreams you need 46p.
Maybe. Or perhaps 46fps would have flopped eventually, and it was naturally to drift to 24fps (or similar, such as 23fps or 25fps) as the framerate of choice
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34 minutes ago, zlfan said:
actually i did one
well sure, I suppose if someone is in a small town and being rung up to do a news piece as there are no usual ENG cameramen to cover the story, then they'll just use whatever camera they have it!
There are always exceptions that exist.
But would someone use a RED ONE MX as their daily/weekly workhorse for regular news work?? Hell no, I'd rather grab say even an old Sony PMW-EX3
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1 hour ago, zlfan said:
right now there is only cine pi 2, but the release of pi 5 will almost certainly help out a cine pi3.
Only if a new and much better camera module for the Pi comes out
- zlfan and eatstoomuchjam
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14 hours ago, Django said:
While the C70 is a great compact cine cam, the fact it is RF S35 means you need to buy very expensive FF RF glass that you won't even be fully exploiting, unless you adapt with the speed booster.
I think that won't matter to @Jedi Master, as they can just buy S35 PL lenses.
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4 hours ago, zlfan said:
Is that you @zlfan?
1 minute ago, zlfan said:also, about news. nowaays news are shot by fx9 fx6, c300 3, c70, etc. why should news be shot on 29.97p 30p?
Because their entire workflow is set up for that, they're not going to ditch millions/billions of dollars worth of gear just so that they can embrace 24p.
Don't try to fix what is not broken.
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20 hours ago, zlfan said:
actually 4:3 is in fashion again, in the new name of open gate anamorphic, thanks to alexa. lol.
Filming for social media has been also one of the biggest factors in making 4:3 popular.
13 hours ago, kye said:The other thing to keep in mind is that there are different goals - some people want to create something that looks lifelike but other people want to create things that don't look real. Much of the tools and techniques in cinema and high-end TV production are to deliberately make things not look real, but to look surreal or 'larger than life' etc.
Exactly, most of us are not filming nature documentaries where we want a 100% accurate reflection of the real world. (heck, not even nature documentaries want that!)
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On 12/3/2023 at 11:46 AM, newfoundmass said:
And how many films followed the lead?
You were in the minority. Most people hated it and most theaters showed it in 24 fps because of complaints.
Yes, "The Hobbit" was more than just "a few years ago", and it has decisively proved the case against higher frame rates than 24fps.
You'll be shooting yourself in the foot if you film and release a film in 60fps. It's not what people want.
You might believe millions/billions of people "are wrong", but this is what reality it, and you're not going to change this by yourself.
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On 12/1/2023 at 5:27 PM, Clark Nikolai said:
It's way too pricey for someone but then again maybe some rental houses would be interested. Instead of keeping some old cameras alive they can get one of these with its warranty and availability of repair parts. Might be good for those that want to shoot film and will rent it.
Can't see why a rental house would be interested, when you consider the up front costs + overheads vs how often they could rent this out, then there isn't any sensible price they could rent this out at per day where they could make a profit on it.
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DigitalRev TV DEAD
In: Cameras
Posted
What nonsense!
"Decay" doesn't mean videos get deleted.
Indeed, DigitalRev very much had a "Top Gear for Photography" vibes.
And we still don't know why they removed those videos! (I don't buy the argument that it is because they're part of a MCN, and if that is true... that's outrageous a MCN could do that to you!!)