theSUBVERSIVE
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Posts posted by theSUBVERSIVE
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1 minute ago, Oliver Daniel said:
Thank you.
Does this imply the 4k60fps video of the GH5 can only be recorded in bursts... or is this just an extra stills feature alongside a normal 4k 60fps video mode?
I don't think it makes sense to provide 4K 60fps only at Photo 4K and in bursts. The DVX200 has normal video 4K 60fps, just like the just announced 1" HC-X1 4K camera. Why would Panasonic offer 4K 60fps in these cameras but only Photo 4K in the GH5? It wouldn't make any sense, so maybe it's just 4K 60fps PLUS 60fps in Photo 4K.
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40 minutes ago, EspenB said:
Yes, current 20 megapixel sensor is 27 fps at 12 ch readout.
The new sensor is 24 channels read out and multi aspect (18.9mm*13mm).
Compared to a regular 4/3rds sensor (17.3 x 13 mm) that new sensor seems to have an aspect of 1.45 (vs 1.33 for standard).
I just hope that all these feats don't come at the cost of a worse A6300-like rolling shutter. So hopefully this means that they were able to get even faster readout of this possible sensor so rolling shutter is in check.
For me, the 3 most important things to be true is the 10-bit 422 internal recording, at least 120 fps 1080p slow motion and IBIS, as long as that's there, everything else is a bonus.
I know that a lot of people is against the HEVC and if I was to buy a GH5 and it had H.265, my computer is still not optimized to HEVC and the transcoding would take longer, but hey, that's the future. H.265 will be the next standard, new CPUs and GPUs already comes natively with it, broadcast, web, new TVs, they are all for the H.265. So I wouldn't mind that, plus H.265 HEVC means that U3 cards would be able to handle the 10-bit 422 files.
I wrote all about my wishes and expectations ver the GH5 here:
https://medium.com/@theSUBVERSIVE/panasonic-gh5-is-coming-cf55597dcd8
5 minutes ago, MediaMan said:Panasonic did it as recently as the LX100 with its MFT sensor.
Kind of.
For the LX100, it's just the usual Micro4/3 16MP with a crop, that's why it's a 12MP camera. The LX100 is not properly a Micro4/3 camera, all aspect ratios have at least 2.2x crop when compared to Micro4/3, even at 4:3 stills.
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1 hour ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:
About 6k: since it is (now) mentioned as a "photo mode", probably they are considering it in a 4:3 aspect ratio - than the quantity of pixels is approximately the same of a 6k DCI image (and sounds better for marketing, and is in line with Panasonic 4k photo modes).
My concern it that IBIS was not mentioned in the specs...If Panasonic doesn't put IBIS in the GH5, a lot of people will be very mad about it. If the GX85 has it and it can record 30min of 4K, I don't see why the GH5 wouldn't. There should be at least the option to get no time limit in 4K without IBIS and 30min with IBIS if that's the case.
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16 minutes ago, IronFilm said:
Maybe the GH5's "6K" only applies to when recording in 4:3 mode for anamorphic shooters.
And we need to wait for the GH6 to see "true" 6K.
This seems very reasonable to me.
The GH6 might skip 6K since Panasonic is planning to have an 8K line up for Tokyo 2020 and by then, the organic sensor might be a real thing.
2 hours ago, ricardo_sousa11 said:Max frame rate 27 instead of 30.
If this were true, the rolling shutter would be out of this world, and render it unusable, let alone for the same price as the GH4.
The table is just illustrative, the 20MP sensor in the table is probably the 20MP already in use by Panasonic and Sony, so the 27fps max frame rate is for that sensor. The specs of the rumour is not listed anywhere, 43Rumors's admin ended up causing confusion by posting the listed 4/3 sensor from Sony's page. If you read the post, you will see that it's just rumored, not proved, so obviously it won't be listed at Sony's page. Moreover, it's a multi-aspect sensor, it could have 20MP for stills but the total MP would be higher, around 22MP.
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Money might be the only thing that will make Canon change anything. But there are still a lot of people praising and buying Canon for video - even DSLRs - and maybe things are starting to turn, but as long as there are people buying I don't see Canon caring.
- AaronChicago, Flynn and mkabi
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44 minutes ago, RubanCam said:
Bravo Panasonic. i am already Using a 0.58X BMPCC F mount Speed booster with my GH4. Now it is With GH5, i will have 0.58X 2 = 1.16 FF crop factor which is almost like a FF image and the 10Bit 4.2.2 is a bonus! Ready for preorder
But does the 0.58X Speed Booster work with the 2x crop instead of 2.2x?
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9 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:
I'll bet its 10bit in 1080 only. Heat would be a real issue for 4K 10 bit wouldn't it?
Why would it? If you think about it, 10-bit means less compression than 8-bit, sure the bit rate is higher but I don't think there would be any overheating issue, even more if you consider that the GH4 is the coolest 4K camera out there. Processing is more important than bit rate, H.265 might be more processing intensive if they choose it, but 8-bit or 10-bit shouldn't change much.
Sony's issue is not just processing, it's the form factor. The NEX cameras overheated in 1080p! I had two of them and they both had overheating issue, the form factor is simply too small, Sony knows it, they just choose to ignore that and preserve the claim of the smallest and most compact FF cameras. Bottom line, there is nothing really that would indicate that it would be just 1080p because of overheating.
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8 minutes ago, mercer said:
I just don't have the computer power to edit in 4K and since most of the stuff I do only requires 1080p, I downscale before I edit. And since I am a FCPX user, ProRes is the obvious choice. Plus I think the downscale adds a little heft to the sometimes brittle video like image coming out of the Panasonics. But to be fair, their IQ has jumped leaps and bounds with the release of the GX85, so I imagine the GH5 will be stunning.
Well, for you then it would be good if Panasonic would offer a 10-bit 1080p then, you won't gain as much using a 10-bit 4K to 1080p as you do with 8-bit 420 files.
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1 minute ago, wolf33d said:
That looks amazing, but now we are dreaming at a 1500$ cameras having better spec than their cinema line.
It's not really better specs, moreover for Cinema a H.265 codec is not something they would want, it doesn't match the Cinema workflow and as for the rest, the image quality of the GH5 will be nowhere near of the Varicam, no one that can buy or rent a Varicam will ditch that for a GH5, they don't really compete with each other in that aspect.
2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:If 10bit 4K internal comes in the GH5 (as we are now expecting) then Panasonic has won the game of camera wars for this round.
Panasonic was first mirrorless/DSLR with 10bit external before anybody else, now it looks like Panasonic will be first with 10bit internal before anyone else had even caught up and offered 10bit external aside from Panasonic!!
It's not even so much a matter of catching up. Having the FS5 and FS7, I really doubt Sony will offer internal 10-bit, Canon doesn't even care about video so much for their DSLR, so maybe no one else would even adopt it besides Panasonic. I would have more faith in Leica maybe even Fuji doing that before Sony and Canon or anybody else or that matter.
1 minute ago, mercer said:God, I hope it's not h.265. Sure you save card space, but transcoding times take forever, especially if you're downscaling to 1080p ProRes.
But that should change in the future, the new CPU, GPU are all compatible with H.265, the number of software and hardware that support H.265 should increase as well. An easy solution would be to transcode from H.265 to H.264 if you want, sure you would need and extra transcode before editing, but from there it would be all the same. But why downscaling to 1080p instead of keeping 4K?
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1 minute ago, MaxAperture Films said:
In the past, Panasonic's cameras have always featured playback compatibility with their TVs. Their current HDR UHD TVs feature native H.265/HEVC and VP9 decoding at 10 bits. I am not aware of 10 bit H.264 decoding support in these TVs. So there's a good possibility this camera will actually record in HEVC and even have a built in HDR profile (HDR10?) in addition to Log profile for those of us who will grade the images offline. I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem to make logical sense to shoot in a codec that won't be playback-compatible with their HDR capable TVs, especially considering product lifecycles can run as long as 3 years for a GH. Why hang on to H.264 for another 2-3 years?
It will be a clever solution to adopt H.265 for 10-bit, I'm not sure they would roll down the option for all video formats but if they can do that at least for the internal 10-bit that's enough to not need a higher bit rate card. But that's quite an advancement for Panasonic, I wonder if they will really do that. Does Panasonic have their own HEVC 10-bit codec?
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8 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:
haha what? we all "do like that", when talking about video modes that do not use the full sensor area.
M4/3 is always 2x crop (I'm not aware of any camera that do not use full M4/3 area) , 2.08 is just a more accurate number.
The GH1 and GH2 used a different 1.86x crop for video because it was a multi-aspect sensor, bigger than the usual Micro4/3 area. The diagonal crop of the sensor is 2.00x (43.3:21.6=2.00) because what matters is the image circle and the video crop that is 2.08x, or 2.1x like you said, but nobody says that video has an extra crop because for practical matters it doesn't matter, the FOV is the same, otherwise even in FF there is a 1.06x crop for video, but who talks about it? Nobody.
This is discussion pointless, if you don't understand that, it's ok.
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1 minute ago, Jn- said:
I've taken the liberty of using this extract from an article in Photography Life, he explains it a lot better than I could ...
I simply replaced sensor dimensions, which would be in millimetres i.e. 24x36 for FF with 4480x6720 and xx x yy for 2160 x 4096.
https://photographylife.com/what-is-crop-factor
"How Crop Factor is Calculated
The math to derive the crop factor is quite simple. Knowing the physical size of the sensor, you first calculate the diagonal using Pythagorean Theorem (a² + b² = c²), then divide the number by the diagonal of the crop sensor."I personally don't have any problem if it is 1.64, all the better, since i've already ordered it, but using the diagonals of the FF sensor and the diagonal of the 4K crop it's 1.74.
Technically you can say it's 1.74x crop because the diagonal comparison doesn't care about aspect ratio, but for practical matters it's 1.64x since you will be able to use Canon APS-C EF lenses without worrying about the crop because the width will be equivalent of an APS-C Canon sensor.
In theory any video that takes the same width has a crop, if a FF is 1.00x, then a video would have 1.06x crop since the diagonal of the video (17:9 or 16:9) is smaller than the FF 3:2 sensor, but nobody says that. So If you apply the same 1.06x crop, that's exactly the difference between the technical 1.74x crop and the practical 1.64x crop (1.74:1.64=1.06).
As I said, for practical matters, the 5D MKIV has a Canon APS-C crop for 4K, that's it, you should be able to use APS-C EF lens on it as if you are using a Canon APS-C camera. Then this crop makes more sense and it seems less random, it's basically the same Nikon did with the D5, it offers an APS-C crop, it's just that Nikon's APS-C is 1.5x crop instead of Canon's APS-C which is 1.6x crop.
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2 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:
For pure sensor size comparison, yes.
But hey man, we are talking about video mode with different aspect ratios.
Technically speaking yes but nobody do like that, people don't usually go and say it's a Micro4/3 camera with 2.00x crop but the 1080p video is a 2.08x crop. This is just getting lost in technicalities, it doesn't matter.
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6 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:
I'm afraid your understanding of crop factor is completely wrong, M4/3 sensor is 17.3mm wide, FF is 36mm wide, 36/17.3 = ~2.1x crop.
They simply measure the diagonal, regardless of the aspect ratio.
FF: 43.3mm
APS-C: 28.4mm (1.52x crop)
Canon APS-C: 26.7mm (1.62x crop)
Micro4/3: 21.6mm (2.00x crop)
Which means that the 5D MKIV is basically like a Canon APS-C 4K, so you can use APS-C EF lenses on it.
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1 minute ago, Luke Mason said:
You don't even need to adjust the aspect ratio, just use the horizontal pixel 6720/4096 = ~1.64.
I was trying to demostrate to Andrew that both work and give the same result, seems like someone skipped a lot of math class lol.
I did just to show that as long as it's the right aspect ratio you can use any measure.
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16 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:
It IS measured horizontally. It ALSO works if you measure diagonally, let me do the math for you:
A DCI 17:9 full sensor area would be 6720x3454, using Pythagorean Theorem you can calculate that the diagonal pixel count is ~7597
the diagonal pixel count of a DCI 17:9 4096x2160 crop area is ~4631
7597/4631 = ~1.64
That's probably correct.
But you don't need the diagonal though, you just have to adjust the 6720x4480 from 3:2 to 4K aspect ratio, which would give something like 6720x3543 and then you can apply to any of the sides - or even the diagonal if you want. I used 3543 instead because 4096:2160 (1,896) is not exactly 17:9 (1,888), but it works anyway.
6720:4096=1,64
3543:2160=1,64
7597:4630=1,64
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15 minutes ago, Flynn said:
Subversive, I think it better have some of those features on your wishlist if they hope for it to sell well. In the current climate, where it seems like Sony has taken a huge chunk of the GH4's sales and who knows what Olympus is about to offer with the EM1ii, your expectations seem very modest to me.
It's not so much about having modest or high expectations, I'm just being realistic about Panasonic and how they are.
What I expect is the minimum Panasonic should do, the second part is what they should do if they actually want to step up their game against Sony. The Wishlist is just something they could do and people would appreciate but I just doubt Panasonic would be bold enough to pull that off, unfortunately.
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As people started talking about the GH5, two things that might delay the GH5:
- Kumamoto Earthquake
- A different sensor than the rumored same old 16MP, if Olympus E-M1 MKII is rumored to have a new sensor, which supposedly has a better performance, I don't see Panasonic lagging behind with their flagship camera, so it's a possibility.
Features I expect:
- 1080p 120 fps
- 8-bit 422 internally
- Dual Card slot
- 5-axis IBIS
Features I wish it has but it might not:
- 1080p 240 fps
- 10-bit 422 internally - even if it means adopting a faster card standard like XQC or even UFS
- A6300-like AF - so in-sensor PDAF
- less crop in 4K - so 4K from a full sensor readout, as long as it doesn't mean worse rolling shutter
- 4K 60fps
- New sensor for better low light and DR - the BSI stacked design 1" sensor has less noise and better DR than the old 16MP Micro4/3 sensor
- New Grip accessory, maybe a new form factor for the GH5 altogether
Adopting something better than 8-bit 420 is a must if Panasonic wants to keep competitive and that's something that Sony will avoid forever if they can, I just don't see Sony putting something better than 8-bit 420 in their stills cameras already having their video cameras like FS5 right above.
Wishlist features:
I wish it had Multi-aspect sensor with 1:1 pixel 4K at 1.86x crop, but 1.86x crop and IBIS might not pair up very well so at least a 12MP 1:1 4K at 2x crop. But Panasonic should do like Sony A7S and A7R, they are both hybrids but one is optimized for video and the other for stills. So 12 MP, video-oriented for GH line up and 24 MP BSI Micro4/3 sensor and still-oriented for the GX. The GX can still have 4K - even if with bigger crop - and V-log as well, since although not their main thing lot of photographers also shoot video when needed.
If someone wants both, they can have both in two different cameras under the same system and you can shoot V-log on both, making it easier to grade together, you might have the GH as the main video camera, the GX for stills and also as a B Camera for 4K.
Although a pretty good stills camera, most people want the GH4 for video, why not completely optimize it for video then? 16MP or more with crop is not optimal, moreover, less MP can mean faster full sensor readouts and less rolling shutter. Also, the GX could free itself from worrying about having too many pixels and it could adopt a higher density pixel count sensor like BSI, copper wiring and stacked design like the one made by Sony.
As an add-on to this topic, JVC could launch a new LS300 or even an LS500 or something with better built, FS5-like modular design and slow motion. From what I've seen after it got the log firmware update, the LS300 is a pretty good camera, it just lacks 120 fps and IBIS.
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UHD 4K Video Recording and F-Log Gamma
Beyond stills shooting, the X-T2 is the first Fujifilm mirrorless camera to offer UHD 4K video recording options. It records this ultra high resolution 3840 x 2160 footage at an excellent 100 Mbps bitrate and with a minor 1.17x crop of the sensor. It also uses a 5120 x 2880 sample of the sensor that is 1.8x more resolution than the UHD 4K frame that is created, ensuring maximum resolution and detail is provided. Footage can be recorded internally for up to about 10 minutes, though with the addition of the optional Vertical Power Booster Grip users will be able to record for up to 30 minutes with ease. Also, the camera features a 3.5mm microphone jack for more advanced audio solutions. Users looking for a headphone jack will find one on the optional Vertical Power Booster Grip.
Full HD recording also benefits from the X-T2's video prowess, taking a 3000 x 1687 input to create finely detailed 1920 x 1080 footage at 100 Mbps. A variety of frame rates are available, including 60p, 50p, 30p, 25p, 24p, and True 24.00 for Full HD recording and 30p, 25p, 24p, and True 24.00 for UHD 4K.
Along with the vastly enhanced recording capabilities, the X-T2 offers an F-Log Gamma setting that provides a flat picture for use in advanced color grading software during editing. This should maximize the potential dynamic range in difficult scenes. Image adjustments can be made as well to highlight tone, shadow tone, color, and sharpness. Additionally, HDMI output is supported with an 8-bit 4:2:2 signal and users will be able to use Film Simulation effects to capture unique video.So 4K also feats an extra crop of 1.17x, which means 1,75x compared to FF, if the GH5 had multi-aspect sensor of 1.86x, it would be pretty close.
The ability to charge via USB is pretty nice and accepting a AC adapter for the grip is also welcomed. I wish it had a touchscreen and a swivel screen instead of this weird articulated one.
There are some minor things like the lack of 120fps/240fps slow motion but overall, this is great for filmmakers, I've been wanting Fuji Colours and Kaizen for quite some time. I couldn't find the F-log gamma curve but this was indeed a surprise, I thought it would come after via FW, but this is much better.
The good thing about Fuji is that they listen to feedback and upgrades via FW WILL happen, so most of the software related feats might be addressed that way, hopefully the hardware is capable so slow motion can come later.
It’s way too soon to judge but some observations. There are some blown out highlights, but they probably shot it in a pre-production firmware, I can’t know if they were using F-log but I’m assuming they were.
I don’t know though if whoever filmed it was familiarized with the F-loggamma curve and how to use it properly, V-log and S-log for instance, you HAVE to expose it to the right by one or two stops. I don’t know how F-log works but exposing it incorrectly might be the reason for the blown out highlights.
In a couple of months the final production model should be out and there will be plenty of tests to get to know F-log. By the X-PRO2 files, it seems that Fuji is good in retaining data in the shadows, so maybe it might behave a bit differently from V-log and S-log, which could also explain the blown out HL.
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5 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:
Some people will think the FS5 is worth it due to the ergonomics alone. The FS700 is much worse in this regard. However, the FS700 does have a slightly better image and will last another 5 years on the market. A true classic.
Considering the financial outlay, for the money I would be looking at the Kinefinity Terra. I'm surprised that there's been no articles in this camera yet on EOSHD. Can't wait to see footage.
5 hours ago, Shield3 said:3 years ago called - the FS700 could do all of this then. Unless this sensor is simply light years ahead (and I don't think it is from the footage I've seen) then the advantages of the FS5 form factor are quickly mitigated. Giant honking Odyssey 7Q+ with multiple drives probably weigh as much as the FS5 itself (with power) and now you have SDI cables hanging around. IMO the FS700 is far better bang for buck USED (You can find the entire rig for around 5k with the O7Q+) vs $5500 + another $3k. Short of the superior ND on the FS5 - what's the point really?
Sony lists the FS700 as 12+ stops of DR vs 14 stops from the FS5, besides the electronic ND and much better ergonomics, some accessories being interchangeable with the FS7, having the same sensor also makes it easier to match the two, even with the similarities with the FS700 in other aspects, the FS5 still has a lot of interesting points on top of the FS700.
The RAW for that price is very welcomed regardless, I mean, I don't see a reason to complain about it, the more options the better for the consumers.
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7 hours ago, BrorSvensson said:
well the jvc-ls300 is pretty much that.
The JVC LS300 is a pretty good camera and surprised a lot of people with its IQ, even more after the firmware update but that's not quite what I would expect of a Panasonic version of the FS5, but using the S35 sensor is certainly a HUGE tip of what Panasonic should try.
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Drum roll for the GH5.
Can't Panasonic make their version of the FS5/FS7 as well?
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I've read in an interview that although capable the X-PRO2's form factor doesn't allow reliable 4K, it would overheat, it would need a different body for that, so it needs to wait until X-T2 probably.
“[X-Pro2 sensor and processor] is fast enough and powerful enough to do 4K movie. […] I think that there’s some limitation, because with a 4K movie, for example, we need to sort out heating issues also. So I cannot say it’s impossible, but very difficult to put, you know, 4K capability into the X-Pro2. If we develop 4K movie-capable cameras, we will need to change the form factor.”
They also talk about some other things 4K-related, an interesting read: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/03/21/fujifilm-interview-cpplus-2016-inside-x-pro2-leap-forward-phase-detect
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I don't get all this time wasting rant about the X-PRO2 not having 4K. Who cares if they put it via FW some people praise their Kaizen? Let them be, that doesn't change anything in real life, such a pitiful thing to whine about.
I'm confused by this actually, I don't see videorgaphers buying the X-PRO2 for its 4K even if it had it, so why should Fuji please video people with a clear niche camera in the X-PRO2 when the X-T line is much more suited and expected for video?
Sure they want to expand their customer base, but they clearly are not going to do that with the X-PRO2 and they don't need to do it with the X-PRO2, this camera is aimed at those that liked the original X100 and the X-PRO1, this is a niche camera in its core, they have other line ups for other needs, it's not like they are simply ignoring video or 4K.
They just said that the X-T2 will have 4K, so it's implied that that' the line up that will be more aimed at videographers and the X-T2 is more suited for that anyway, why bother so much with what the X-PRO2 doesn't have if you were not going to buy it even if it had it? I don't get it.
I prefer to look at it differently, as I see it, Fuji gave videographers a teaser of what is to come, they improved the video, that's already a good sign, X-Trans can actually make good video and with this interview, they are saying that the X-T2 will be the line up that videographers should take a look when it comes.
I don't have high expectations for their first go for video though. I think that the Fuji colours will be there and the quality might even be there too, but I wonder if Fuji will get the little quirks right. The peaking disappearing in video mode, using a better codec, having better menus, audio feats, etc. I don't think they will get most of it right, I wished they were already talking with videographers to make it right, but I do think that part of it might be solved via Kaizen. Will it have a log-like profile? Will the button placement have video in mind?
With Samsung - apparently - pulling out of the market, with Sony having a camera like A6300 - but with no APS-C support in term of lenses -, Fuji could take advantage of the APS-C mirrorless video market. I'm just not sure if it's going to be the X-T2 or it's already a bit too late. But it's good for consumers to see they trying.
GH5 10-bit 4:2:2 internal?
In: Cameras
Posted
But isn't it a bit weird? I'm not sure Panasonic would offer or advertise this 6K 30fps burst only for stills, all stills things Panasonic has done has always had 4:3 as a priority.
For me 6K Photo Mode is just something the source called it by itself, in the end it might just mean that the GH5 can do a full sensor 30 burst in multi aspect for a limited buffer.