EspenB
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Posts posted by EspenB
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10 hours ago, JulioD said:
Yes you can by doing a minor tweak and then applying for a new patent. Pharma companies do this all the time just changing the delivery method for the same drug.
I don’t agree with the practice, but it’s naive to think this patent runs out when the new one RED just posted sounds awfully similar.
“A 2018 study by Robin Feldman, a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco, found that 78 percent of new drug patents between 2005 and 2015 were for existing drugs.”
https://undark.org/2021/06/16/how-patent-extensions-keep-some-drug-costs-high/
The new patent is only for the specific tweak, not the old stuff.
Like I said, evolving CD into Blu-Ray doesn't prolong the patent for CD.
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1 hour ago, JulioD said:
RED extended the patent. This is a common technique used by pharma companies to extend the IP protection.
https://ymcinema.com/2022/12/01/red-digital-cinema-filed-another-patent-related-to-compressed-raw/
You can not "extend" a patent. Unless you build something new. Still, the old stuff are in public domain after 20 years.
When the Sony/Philips patents for CD was dead, evolving it into a DVD or Blue Ray by them or others did not bring back the old patents for CD per see.
(There was other patents here, like the generic patents for optical disc, later acquired by Pioneer Corp in Japan, which for some reason had a extended filling time - (application was lost at the patent office) but for the sake of this discussion I try to keep it simple.)
The latest RED.com RAW patent can be read here, but heck there is just claims of the old stuff really, with the added methods of pre-/de-emphasis of the compressed data which to my understanding was not in the original "internally compressed RAW patent".
There seems to be just about a new form of "15-bit to 12-bit pre-emphasis function" now added to the redcode processing after RED switched from wavelet to DCI based compression. FIG 5 in the patent is all that is new.
https://ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloadPdf/11503294
As far as I know there are other patents for the pre-/deemphasis of the wavelet based redcode which have now been abandoned for the later DCI compression. The internally compresed RAW patent is not about the compression, just the idea of 24+ FPS and >2K res RAW frames... Quite stupid. And neither the wavelet based (JPEG2000) or the DCI based compression is a invention by RED, it's just licensed for use in the redcode.
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4 minutes ago, sanveer said:
Countdown has been running since November 2019.
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On 3/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, andjo said:
This was unexpected. Quite intrigued to see where this leads, both camera and pantent wise.
The only thing which have kept the church of RED alive is the patent. And the insane mark up on cards, viewfinders, etc.
Patent is dead in four years regardless.
Also, RED is run like a surf shop which now meets japanese corporate culture. What could go wrong.
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53 minutes ago, Nath said:
This or Jannard had really a short window to cash out his market advantage now .
What did Nikon pay?
How can Nikon make this back in the next 3-4 years before the patent expires?
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1 hour ago, John Matthews said:
Redcode RAW was initially implemented in the early 2010s, but the filing was December 28th 2007. I imagine the patent will only last a few more years. This must have also played a role in the acquisition. Nikon will have a very short window to leverage it.
Patents expire after 20 years.
The basic "internal compressed RAW" patent expires in april 2028. Or the end of the same year, I'm not sure.
In any case "the patent" only has four years to go.
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13 hours ago, Cinegain said:
the McLaren team being tested for COVID
The virus is called SAR-CoV-2.
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5 hours ago, Emanuel said:
The case is so sensitive that the thread I had opened a couple of hours ago on reduser should have beaten the record because vanished from the air right away... LOL ; -)
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?179183-RED-patents&p=1875811#post1875811
The basic problem with RED.com is that they are a one hit wonder. Thanks to the US patent office.
As far as I can tell they have done nothing to continue to innovate further.
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37 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:
Yes. Or record with a width of less than 2k pixels. Or use a CFA with different RGB ratios. There are lots of ways around the patent which imply that it really isn't the thing holding companies back from implementing raw of some kind in hybrid cameras.
(Note that HD is less than 2000 pixels wide.)
Yeah I know REDs focus was on 4K. Still Dalasa was there first. ?
It's a strange patent.
I wonder if the company will be totally run over when the stuff expires.
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3 hours ago, Mokara said:
Reading US 7,830,967, it would appear that some sort of preprocessing is involved prior to compression, whatever the hell "pre-emphasis function" means. It appears to be some method of averaging adjacent pixels of specific colors before compression. If that is the case, then there are likely other ways to handle RAW data compression that would not infringe that particular patent.
US 8,174,560 does not have the "pre-emphasis" requirement, which makes it more general than '967, but does require a compression ratio of at least 1:6.
So I think that anything with a compression ratio of less than 1:6 is OK, as long as you don't do any color averaging of the three color streams.
Pre-/de-emphasis is a well know noise reduction method / signal-processing step.
Used by basically all analogue media i.e., RIAA on LPs, Dolby Noise reduction, etc.
"a process of increasing the amplitude of certain frequencies relative to others in a signal in order to help them override noise, complemented by deemphasis before final reproduction of the signal being received."
So you could use a 5:1 ratio and avoid the patent?
Espen
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30 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:
I feel bad for the researchers in 2025 who invent an amazing new compression method to fit 12k 240fps RAW onto an SD card, only to find that their invention has been owned by RED for 20 years.
Fear not. A patent is only for 20 years.
January 26, 2036 everything will be fine.
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3 hours ago, Lars Steenhoff said:
First I don't think this is true, and even If it is, then it also applies to a compressed raw in a still camera.
When the next generation stills cameras from Nikon or canon can shoot stills at 24 frames per second with compressed raw red should start a court case against them.
The RED patent is for compressed RAW video with at least 24 FPS.
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53 minutes ago, Sun Daze said:
I still don't quite see their rebuttal.
Steven Soderbergh says so! That is their only defence. ?
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13 minutes ago, Otago said:
I do wonder why they are fighting this so hard, is the internal RAW really so important to the success of Red cinema cameras ? I can't see people shooting big budget stuff turning up with a Z6, they are already sniffy about Blackmagic stuff apparently!
Is this why no digital cameras ( like the A9 ) shoot higher than 20fps ? Is there a legal difference between video and a sequence of stills, because I couldn't see one in the documents.
(Andrew: Have you thought about putting this forum into a separate legal entity from your blog ? I would be sad to see the information contained in this forum lost to a legal battle.)
REDs continued existence relies almost entirely on the redcode patent.
Alas, patents only last 20 years so the existence of the RED patent will continue to delay "raw video" until the patent expires.
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10 hours ago, Video Hummus said:
Still better than Canon R and RP.
Well, not if you want that dual pixel AF and swivel LCD.
17 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:I don't really think a small body is feasible with full frame IBIS and being able to process full frame 4k 10bit or 4k 60p while managing heat properly.
The basic problem is that camera companies don't make their LSI with proper low nm processes. That would lower heat output massively.
Developing proper camera LSI's are getting very expensive, that's why you see old processors recycled. Like the Olympus "X" where they just put two outdated processors in the same body.
17 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:You show me the perfect camera!!
They will never make one as long as they can put different software features in different bodies and sell you two or three. Not to mention they always saves something for the next years model.
Alas camera companies are always looking for the perfect profit, not the perfect camera.
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7 hours ago, sanveer said:
I am also guessing the payment for the VLog could be more than $99 on this one. I am guessing, it would be more in the $199-299 range.
Its more like $400 or more.
13 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:Whaaaat? How do you know this? Have you seen complaints of this yet? 15-30min???
Dunno about this one. Would love too se a video on that.
Panasonic has placed recording limits to try to limit overheating, some cleverly disguised as previous "30 min EU tax limit", but real reason is overheating.
Panasonic themselves warns about overheating in the spec text:
"*2 Maximum 15 minutes in 4K60p and unlimited recording time in Full HD until the SD Memory Card becomes full or the battery runs out.
*3 Maximum 29 minutes 59 seconds in 4K60p until the SD Memory Card becomes full or the battery runs out.
– When the ambient temperature is high or continuous recording is performed, the camera may stop the recording to protect itself. Wait until the camera cools down (*2*3)."
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46 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:
Damn.....this is one HELL of a shoddy CODEC, frame rate and compressed audio $hit list! I pre-ordered this camera today but without the paid VLog and 10bit recording licenses,...this camera out of the box is of very little use to me...not like THIS! (HLG forced into 72mb/s h.265? only....compressed audio?..my God, this is bad)
Also remember that the thermal management is BAD and camera will overheat after like 15 - 30 minutes in some modes.
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Vimeo will probably not survive.
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28 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:
I doubt M43 will be obsolete but we'll see.
Do you see a lot of new camera and lens announcements from either Panasonic or Olympus these days?
If Panasonic gets to the GH6 eventually it will likely be priced like this "X" from Olympus. Or more.
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This is intended for sports and wildlife photography. Or so they said.
But the new 150-400 mm f4.5 lens is not scheduled until some time in 2020!!!
It basically means that it might be 12-18-24 months away.
By that time this camera, m43 and Olympus will already be obsolete.
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5 hours ago, frontfocus said:
The camera is not the problem, it’s the price. it’s an E-M1 II with grip, tiny hardware additions and new firmware. So if we take the price of an E-M1 II with grip and add a few bucks, we end up at 2000€, which would be much more resonable then 3000€.
It will probably be available for USD2000 in six months.
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"This camera is so, so good!"
Apparently this is all that it takes to get a few million subscribers on the tube.
Nikon buys Red?
In: Cameras
Posted
It's perfectly unclear here what kind of Sony sensors Nikon use or to what extent any modifications are made by Sony sensor engineers or team Nikon themselves. And neither will tell you the truth.