EspenB

Yeah, GH7 has a new sensor.

Looks like rumours was correct. GH6 style body, still only one CF Express card slot.

1 CF Express card,

5728x3024 Apple ProRes RAW HQ up to 30fps, data rate at 3.3Gbps or non-HQ at 2.2Gbps at 24fps

14 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Would you prefer they spent a lot of time and money on a new body design and designing a new sensor, delaying the camera and having to charge a lot more money for it?

Personally I think they've done exactly what they should have done - merge the best parts of the GH6 with the best parts of the G9 ii, to create what's hopefully going to be the best pro-video orientated micro43 hybrid camera ever.

LOL. How many months to merge the GH6 body with G9M2 internals? The GH7 was probably held back until the GH6 inventory was low enough.

15 minutes ago, Al Dolega said:

So.... like almost every camera ever released? They're not starting from the ground up every year or two.

Personally I care about the overall package, its usability, price and the results it delivers. I actually prefer when they re-use body designs as then I can re-use cages and rigging.

I think many had preferred the more slimmer fan solution from the S5M2-series.

Also, by re-using the GH6 body style it might have dual card slots of different types.

All in all I think we can acknowledge that the GH7 will not be a ground breaking design, compared to what has been issued before.

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

You're saying it like it's a bad thing, but people really like the G9 II.  Putting its guts in a pro body, enabling internal raw, and charging only $300 more for it (judging by leaks) sounds pretty great to me.

Yes and no.

Panasonics market share are miniscule, they have to operate at a slim budget. Thus the GH7 is lots of used parts and bits, with some extras added in. We should probably be glad the finally made a GH-PDAF instead of abandoning the mount altogether.

That said, we could perhaps wanted something more in the flagship camera. Improved sensor with faster read out. There is also the dream of the internal ND filter, which now looks more likely to be implemented in the S1 mk II series in the late fall.

17 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

 

I use my GH5MKII exclusively underwater. I will buy the GH7 hoping to find a GH6 housing on the used market. Saving 4K€...

https://www.nauticam.com/products/na-gh6-housing-for-panasonic-lumix-gh6-camera

 

The Nauticam housing prices have skyrocketed in the last years.

I have the Nauticam housing for the GH3 and GH4.

I think its pretty certain that both the S9 and the GH7 was shown and handed out at the Lumix press junket in Osaka.

On 6/3/2024 at 6:35 PM, Davide DB said:

 

given the patent war what raw format can be expected?
 

Apparently ProRes RAW. Which Black Magic refuses to support in Davinci Resolve due to the Atomos factor.

40 minutes ago, mercer said:

You gotta give it to Panasonic though, they took an entire market of loyal m4/3 users and halted any and all discussions about the full frame "myth" and made them loyal full frame shooters. And then when you think m4/3 is all but dead and buried... they flip the script and instead of releasing an S2H... they release the apex of m4/3 cameras.

I guess they learned from their mistake of sitting on the GH6 release for so long. Release m4/3 first and then full frame a year later...

Us dopes will buy both. 

Come on. The GH7 is basically the G9M2 internals in a GH6 body positive form factor. Then add a few new bits of hardware and firmware. It's seems like the cheapest way they could possibly engineer the GH7. No new sensor, no new body design.

As for any S1 mk II it's unlikely until Q4, 2024.

3 hours ago, mercer said:

I understand that, thanks. This wasn't the intent of my original musing, but since we're here I'll ask...

Do you think it's cheaper for Nikon to implement their tech, say AF, into a Sony manufactured sensor, or is it cheaper for Nikon to license Sony's version?

It's perfectly unclear here what kind of Sony sensors Nikon use or to what extent any modifications are made by Sony sensor engineers or team Nikon themselves. And neither will tell you the truth.

10 hours ago, JulioD said:

Yes you can by doing a minor tweak and then applying for a new patent.  Pharma companies do this all the time just changing the delivery method for the same drug.  
 

I don’t agree with the practice, but it’s naive to think this patent runs out when the new one RED just posted sounds awfully similar. 
 

“A 2018 study by Robin Feldman, a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco, found that 78 percent of new drug patents between 2005 and 2015 were for existing drugs.”

https://undark.org/2021/06/16/how-patent-extensions-keep-some-drug-costs-high/

The new patent is only for the specific tweak, not the old stuff.

Like I said, evolving CD into Blu-Ray doesn't prolong the patent for CD.

1 hour ago, JulioD said:

RED extended the patent. This is a common technique used by pharma companies to extend the IP protection. 
 

https://ymcinema.com/2022/12/01/red-digital-cinema-filed-another-patent-related-to-compressed-raw/

You can not "extend" a patent. Unless you build something new. Still, the old stuff are in public domain after 20 years.

When the Sony/Philips patents for CD was dead, evolving it into a DVD or Blue Ray by them or others did not bring back the old patents for CD per see.

(There was other patents here, like the generic patents for optical disc, later acquired by Pioneer Corp in Japan, which for some reason had a extended filling time - (application was lost at the patent office) but for the sake of this discussion I try to keep it simple.)

The latest RED.com RAW patent can be read here, but heck there is just claims of the old stuff really, with the added methods of pre-/de-emphasis of the compressed data which to my understanding was not in the original "internally compressed RAW patent".

There seems to be just about a new form of "15-bit to 12-bit pre-emphasis function" now added to the redcode processing after RED switched from wavelet to DCI based compression. FIG 5 in the patent is all that is new.

https://ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloadPdf/11503294

As far as I know there are other patents for the pre-/deemphasis of the wavelet based redcode which have now been abandoned for the later DCI compression. The internally compresed RAW patent is not about the compression, just the idea of 24+ FPS and >2K res RAW frames... Quite stupid. And neither the wavelet based (JPEG2000) or the DCI based compression is a invention by RED, it's just licensed for use in the redcode.

4 minutes ago, sanveer said:

 

Countdown has been running since November 2019.

On 3/7/2024 at 3:29 PM, andjo said:

This was unexpected. Quite intrigued to see where this leads, both camera and pantent wise.

The only thing which have kept the church of RED alive is the patent. And the insane mark up on cards, viewfinders, etc.

Patent is dead in four years regardless.

Also, RED is run like a surf shop which now meets japanese corporate culture. What could go wrong.

53 minutes ago, Nath said:

 

This or Jannard had really a short window to cash out his market advantage now .

What did Nikon pay?

How can Nikon make this back in the next 3-4 years before the patent expires?

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Redcode RAW was initially implemented in the early 2010s, but the filing was December 28th 2007. I imagine the patent will only last a few more years. This must have also played a role in the acquisition. Nikon will have a very short window to leverage it.

Patents expire after 20 years.

The basic "internal compressed RAW" patent expires in april 2028. Or the end of the same year, I'm not sure.

In any case "the patent" only has four years to go.

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?msg=RED.com RAW patents expire&p0=840&ud=2&year=2028&month=4&day=11&hour=0&min=0&sec=0&fromtheme=party

13 hours ago, Cinegain said:

the McLaren team being tested for COVID

The virus is called SAR-CoV-2. 

5 hours ago, Emanuel said:

The case is so sensitive that the thread I had opened a couple of hours ago on reduser should have beaten the record because vanished from the air right away... LOL ; -)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?179183-RED-patents&p=1875811#post1875811

The basic problem with RED.com is that they are a one hit wonder. Thanks to the US patent office.

As far as I can tell they have done nothing to continue to innovate further.

Days until RED patent expires. ?

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/party?p0=840&iso=20280411T00&year=2028&month=4&day=11&hour=0&min=0&sec=0&msg=RED.com RAW patents expire&ud=2&csz=1

37 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

Yes. Or record with a width of less than 2k pixels. Or use a CFA with different RGB ratios. There are lots of ways around the patent which imply that it really isn't the thing holding companies back from implementing raw of some kind in hybrid cameras.

(Note that HD is less than 2000 pixels wide.)

Yeah I know REDs focus was on 4K. Still Dalasa was there first. ?

It's a strange patent.

I wonder if the company will be totally run over when the stuff expires.

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

Reading US 7,830,967, it would appear that some sort of preprocessing is involved prior to compression, whatever the hell "pre-emphasis function" means. It appears to be some method of averaging adjacent pixels of specific colors before compression. If that is the case, then there are likely other ways to handle RAW data compression that would not infringe that particular patent.

US 8,174,560 does not have the "pre-emphasis" requirement, which makes it more general than '967, but does require a compression ratio of at least 1:6.

So I think that anything with a compression ratio of less than 1:6 is OK, as long as you don't do any color averaging of the three color streams.

Pre-/de-emphasis is a well know noise reduction method / signal-processing step.

Used by basically all analogue media i.e., RIAA on LPs, Dolby Noise reduction, etc.

"a process of increasing the amplitude of certain frequencies relative to others in a signal in order to help them override noise, complemented by deemphasis before final reproduction of the signal being received."

So you could use a 5:1 ratio and avoid the patent?

Espen

17 hours ago, EspenB said:

Fear not. A patent is only for 20 years.

January 26, 2036 everything will be fine.

Mea culpa. The RED.com RAW patents was filed in 2007/2008, so will basically expire in 2028.

8 more years to go and we can give RED.com the finger.

30 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

I feel bad for the researchers in 2025 who invent an amazing new compression method to fit 12k 240fps RAW onto an SD card, only to find that their invention has been owned by RED for 20 years.

Fear not. A patent is only for 20 years.

January 26, 2036 everything will be fine.

3 hours ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

First I don't think this is true, and even If it is, then it also applies to a compressed raw in a still camera. 

When the next generation stills cameras from Nikon or canon can shoot stills at 24 frames per second with compressed raw red should start a court case against them.

 

The RED patent is for compressed RAW video with at least 24 FPS.

53 minutes ago, Sun Daze said:

I still don't quite see their rebuttal.

Steven Soderbergh says so! That is their only defence. ?