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Canon 1D C vs Sony A7S 4K - dynamic range - preview


Andrew Reid
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The one thing I find totally ridiculous about the A7s is that Sony has no official workflow/lut to bring the s-log 2 footage into a normal looking image. I think that's totally inacceptable.

Another thing I noticed sooner today when I had a look at the samples is that the log curve seems to eat fine detail, the reflection on the desk and the wood pattern below the camera are totally gone. Maybe it just wasn't in focus, but if it's really like that I think that's a major problem because personally I find that these faint reflections and textures are essential when you are composing an image (skin for example), why use 4K if the camera is blind to them (or is it just the slog mode).

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Can we additionally shoot gray scales and charts, and match the brightness on a middle gray shade in one comparison, match black shade in another comparison and match white in another comparison?  Such tests might give us a clearer idea of what's going on.

​Tupp- folks shooting charts/wedges get 12-14 stops for the A7S, and typically ~12 stops for the 1DC:

http://***URL not allowed***/dynamic-range-sony-a7s-vs-arri-amira-canon-c300-5d-mark-iii-1dc-panasonic-gh4/

Cinema5D's results are controversial, however they used a very high end Xlya 21 self-LED-lit chart in total darkness.

Samuel Hurtado gets 12 stops with SLog2 for the A7S: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?331924-slog2-8-bits-in-14-stops, with his main point all those stops are useable (vs. other cameras). MacGregor measured about the same using CINE4.

It would appear the A7S has more DR in the shadows, and about the same or slightly more DR in the highlights vs. the 1DC (based on Andrew's example images). A7S via HDMI must be denoised in post (unlike the 1DC which is still doing NR with settings on "off").

araucaria- it's well known that SGamut in Slog2 on the A7S is best avoided, and instead use Pro or Cinema to provide much better color performance. Slog3/Sgamut3 work much better (FS7 and above).

The 1DC produces a superior film-style image, especially in color and skin tones vs. the A7S. The A7S provides significantly more detail and more dynamic range. Canon 5D3 RAW produces even better color than the 1DC and about the same DR. For delivering (softish/filmic) 4K content, the 1DC is a very nice camera. When there's good light, the GH4 is excellent too.

For 1080p delivery, 5D3 RAW is still the best deal for those wanting something full frame and filmic. I'm currently experimenting with 5D3 RAW to DNG (mlrawviewer), directly into PPro then after WB and basic adjustments back out to XAVC for editing (then archiving the MLV or deleting it). It sounds like 1DC MJPEGs need to be transcoded, so 5D3 RAW isn't much more work and will provide 14-bit color (and 10-bit 422 XAVC/ProRes/DNxHD if transcoding).

Also testing the A7S to see if skin tones and a nice filmic look can be derived to look nearly as good as 5D3 RAW (much smaller files, more usable DR, more detail). When a camera is as sharp as the A7S, we can use a lens filter (have a Tiffen Promist on order) or blur in post.

To get the most from the A7S, one profile is needed for low light, and another for bright light (perhaps even more for best results). You'll find what works for you with a bit of testing.

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The 1DC exhibits clipping where the A7s does not, but has a cleaner image than the A7s from what I can tell.

​It's the other way round on the clipping. Just look at the images I've put up from the original files.

Don't try to grade the web compressed JPEGs!

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For video, Canon rates the 1DC at 12 stops. Sony rates the A7S at 15 stops. In lab conditions with the Xyla 21 chart, the 1DC gets around 12 and the A7S around 14. For useable DR Samuel and MacGregor got 12 for the A7S and by their metric of useable DR would expect the 1DC to be 11 stops (dropping 1-2 stops measured for useable DR).

Asking us to look at your examples without modifying them to explore useable DR doesn't make sense, as we'd most certainly make changes for any real work. Even so, your examples generally show more useable DR with the A7S.

Comments that imply our eyes don't work are unprofessional, immature, and antagonistic. If you'd like to create drama for page views vs. an honest search for truth, wherever it may lead, how can we take anything you say seriously?

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jcs,

For some reason Andrew is not getting through to you people. so (again) I will translate whats happening.

The guy who owns this website just spent some serious time with the 1 DC, and as with all smart people, attitudes and opinions change..as a person gets more experience, gets older, wiser, more educated, etc..etc..Tests come and go..new tests, re-tests..and the dude does it his way because its his site. I know, it took an 8 year college education to decipher that information.

As new tech reaches the owner of this site (or old tech) and he gains experience with said 'gear'...his opinion and statements (wether you like it or not) are apt to change.

Again, this happens with intelligent people. 

I have nothing to gain by defending Andrew, (he can be confrontational himself at times..like with me:rolleyes:)...however its tiresome to come on this website and have to scroll through the dribble of confrontational people like you...People keep continually challenging this dude on his own fucking site.

Its a waste of everyones time.

Andrew obviously is getting something out of dealing with idiots like you, or he would be banning people left and right. Maybe he likes a challenge, likes an argument, or whatever..however I believe he is costing himself really cool and interesting people in the industry from joining this website..when they come on here and read this bullshit...time and time again.

I see it as a waste of time to challenge a dude on his own website. Get your own fucking site and challenge yourself.

Yes, the 1 DC is superior to the a7s...it's also a lot more expensive, and should be. And the site owner owes you nothing. Zero. Nada. No explanation. 

Now go watch "Roadhouse" with a gin and tonic w/ xanax chaser.

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About 11 usable stops for 1Dc seems consistent with Adam Wilts review from March 2013. When he stretches it in post he gets to 13 stops. Doesn't really matter.

The point here is that Canon Log is a beautifully designed picture profile specifically for 8bit after carefully evaluating both technical as well as psycho visual aspects with many screenings before experiences DPs.

There is a DR craze going on with the false notion that a camera is supposed to capture everything from the darkest shadow to the brightest highlight. Welcome to amateur hour.

Just as the photographer/cinematographer carefully selects his/her framing, he/she also carefully select what light to include. Blown out highlights should be beautifully rendered. Light falling into shadow creates drama.

It should be obvious that both the Canon 1Dc as well as the A7s should be able to create satisfactory images. The error will fall on the operator. The 1Dc captures the image internally to CF-cards with no fuss, which is nice.

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​With my eyes! You can't see it? Crushed blacks and a highlight that burns sooner on the A7S S-LOG? C'mon dude. Black is black you can't bring it back, same as white.

​It doesn't matter what you do, you will never be able to crush the blacks on the 1Dc on Canon Log.

Canon Log has 0% reflectance setup at IRE 7.3 (code 32 in 8bit code space) and IRE 0 is at code 16.

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What JCS said was challenging, but lafilm has made it much worse with his comments, there is no need for such confrontational attitudes from anyone. Especially in that tone. It's fair for people to judge from their own conclusions, different eyes see different things. At least be civil about it. 

 

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Please JCS. Andrew, Iafilm, just forget all the previous comments and just don't address them again, now let's just discuss scientifically the A7s vs 1Dc images, based on Andrews tests, we can make our own conclusions and agree/disagree with each other... you'll be surprised how many guests read your opposing views here on the talks and benefit greatly from them, until it gets personal. 

after this post on, no addressing the previous view personal posts, consider them deleted (please andrew?) and go on talking... 

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A while ago EOSHD had dissolved into a non-productive confrontational forum. Other forums bashed EOSHD and personally insulted Andrew Reid. I suggested to Andrew (as did others) that he use moderators to help clean up the forum: http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/5456-potential-changes-to-the-forum-to-prioritise-good-content-suggestions-welcome/?page=3. I was a moderator at Cinema5D but stopped going there after it moved to Planet5D and died (I made it clear I didn't have time to be a moderator again).

Politely challenging someone with facts and logic and focusing on what is being discussed is not confrontational. It's how we learn and grow. I learn a great deal doing research in these discussions. I share the results with everyone.

When one runs out of facts or logic, many times they turn to emotion and begin personal attacks. In debate, this is called ad hominem, and is an instant fail.

When the site owner is participating in ad hominems with antagonistic and confrontational interactions, that sends the wrong message to the rest of the moderation team, and also encourages members to exhibit the same behavior. Leading by example is important. Is this post confrontational? It's critical and fair given what has transpired in this thread.

Perhaps the current moderation team doesn't have time to help out. If Ebrahim has time, I think he'd make a great moderator. Perhaps there are others.

 

 

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A while ago EOSHD had dissolved into a non-productive confrontational forum. Other forums bashed EOSHD and personally insulted Andrew Reid. I suggested to Andrew (as did others) that he use moderators to help clean up the forum: http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/5456-potential-changes-to-the-forum-to-prioritise-good-content-suggestions-welcome/?page=3. I was a moderator at Cinema5D but stopped going there after it moved to Planet5D and died (I made it clear I didn't have time to be a moderator again).

Politely challenging someone with facts and logic and focusing on what is being discussed is not confrontational. It's how we learn and grow. I learn a great deal doing research in these discussions. I share the results with everyone.

When one runs out of facts or logic, many times they turn to emotion and begin personal attacks. In debate, this is called ad hominem, and is an instant fail.

When the site owner is participating in ad hominems with antagonistic and confrontational interactions, that sends the wrong message to the rest of the moderation team, and also encourages members to exhibit the same behavior. Leading by example is important. Is this post confrontational? It's critical and fair given what has transpired in this thread.

Perhaps the current moderation team doesn't have time to help out. If Ebrahim has time, I think he'd make a great moderator. Perhaps there are others.

 

 

​I just thought your initial post was "challenging", which is fine. Everybody needs to be challenged. Your input into these topics are very useful (sometimes beyond my brain receptors) so thank you. I thought lafilm's reply was inappropriate and could of potentially fuelled a few emotions of the more opinionated members. Everyone makes mistakes when they get angry eh?

Ebrahim is a top guy, he is spot on. Topics like this are important to follow for the technical check-list - I'm trying to make a buying decision and this post involves those very cameras. 

These camera are very very close in DR. What matters is the price difference as per performance. Great sign for the future! 

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Ok, Andrew. This topic has made me register on the forum. 

PLEASE stop judging a7s' DR based on a jpg. 

go here and scroll to the end of the page to see my post that shows "what hides in the white sky". I isolated the sky, turned the dial down and just sat there with my jaw on the floor. <3 Slog

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?324777-A7s-sample-footage/page158

prores yes

jpg no

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A while ago EOSHD had dissolved into a non-productive confrontational forum. Other forums bashed EOSHD and personally insulted Andrew Reid. I suggested to Andrew (as did others) that he use moderators to help clean up the forum: http://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/5456-potential-changes-to-the-forum-to-prioritise-good-content-suggestions-welcome/?page=3. I was a moderator at Cinema5D but stopped going there after it moved to Planet5D and died (I made it clear I didn't have time to be a moderator again).

Politely challenging someone with facts and logic and focusing on what is being discussed is not confrontational. It's how we learn and grow. I learn a great deal doing research in these discussions. I share the results with everyone.

When one runs out of facts or logic, many times they turn to emotion and begin personal attacks. In debate, this is called ad hominem, and is an instant fail.

When the site owner is participating in ad hominems with antagonistic and confrontational interactions, that sends the wrong message to the rest of the moderation team, and also encourages members to exhibit the same behavior. Leading by example is important. Is this post confrontational? It's critical and fair given what has transpired in this thread.

Perhaps the current moderation team doesn't have time to help out. If Ebrahim has time, I think he'd make a great moderator. Perhaps there are others.

 

 

I liked the posts of Matt James Smith. He challenged Andrew. He's gone.
I like your posts. You challenged Andrew. Please don't leave :)

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