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Allen Smith

NX1 panning super jittery

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Anyone have any idea why the NX1 looks super jittery when doing panning? I tried everything enabling and disabling ois, dis but nothing changes. I know in general shooting in 24p you can't pan super fast especially in 4k but the jitters are unbearably bad I will try uploading some sample footage soon. I put shutter speed at 1/50 the ideal setting for shooting movies but not sure what else I can do to eliminate this issue and am wondering if it is an NX1 issue. I also tried different focal lengths on the 16-50 f2 but at all focal lengths same problem with no noticeable difference.

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Why would you be shooting at 24p? That is just asking for trouble. Unless you are shooting clips for insertion into an analog timeline there is no reason, because it will be mismatched against the frame rate of the viewing devices your customers are likely using.

As a general rule of thumb you should shoot for the medium your customer is probably going to be using.

 

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4 hours ago, Mokara said:

Why would you be shooting at 24p? That is just asking for trouble. Unless you are shooting clips for insertion into an analog timeline there is no reason, because it will be mismatched against the frame rate of the viewing devices your customers are likely using.

As a general rule of thumb you should shoot for the medium your customer is probably going to be using.

 

You are going to have to explain that a lot more to me to even begin to guess what you are talking about?? 😧

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Viewing 24p on a 60p device will stutter on pans since it is it is creating a series of duplicates 2 or 3 frames long. Every time you get that 3 frame sequence it will stutter. TV sets have better ways of dealing with that by adjusting frames rates or extrapolating motion, but monitors do not, they run at 60 fps and throw duplicate frames in to make the difference. So if you are watching the footage on a normal consumer viewing device and have not transcoded it into a format suitable for that device it is going to look horrible.

The other issue he will have doing a pan, depending on how fast it is, is lateral distance between objects in individual frames being large enough to see visually, and the only way around that is to shoot at a higher frame rate (which is why 4K60p is so desirable).

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Well I do agree with your statement, and interesting subject, but I doubt less than 1/10th of 1% of all monitors in the world are set to 24p even when editing, let alone viewing. Most You Tube content probably is not even shot in 24p, and just about every LCD panel in the world is doing 60 Hertz. Every gamer is at the least and hoping to do 120 Hertz if their GPU can hack it, you can bet on that.

So I am sure in the high end part of it production, editing they do have 24 Hertz, 24p or at best using 48 Hertz or some odd ball thing. But does that equate to good footage when the "masses" are viewing at 60 Hertz. Seems like a disservice to them at best. Would seem like they need to slow down their pans a bit LoL.

https://www.avadirect.com/blog/frame-rate-fps-vs-hz-refresh-rate/

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On 8/1/2018 at 7:09 PM, KnightsFan said:

@Allen Smith do you get the same jitter with other cameras shooting at 24p? If not, then what you're seeing is not frame conversion judder.

So my NX1 is doing the same thing and it is not frame conversion judder. The jitter is there even if I film on a tripod and run across the frame. UHD or 4K footage is unusable. the  1080p is a little bit better. Now I live in Europe, so we have PAL and I usually film 25/50/100 FPS. The weird thing is, that 50 and 100 fps footage is smooth as f*** and 25 FPS sometimes is ok, sometimes jittery. I have all kinds of memory cards (including the fastest ones out there) and it does not depend on that. It makes no difference how full the card is or what weather it is outside. It just sometimes does it and sometimes not! however 24FPS does it all the time. Any clue what is going on? 4K Footage shot by others with the NX1 on youtube looks way smoother than mine.

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6 hours ago, DaveBerg said:

So my NX1 is doing the same thing and it is not frame conversion judder. The jitter is there even if I film on a tripod and run across the frame. UHD or 4K footage is unusable. the  1080p is a little bit better. Now I live in Europe, so we have PAL and I usually film 25/50/100 FPS. The weird thing is, that 50 and 100 fps footage is smooth as f*** and 25 FPS sometimes is ok, sometimes jittery. I have all kinds of memory cards (including the fastest ones out there) and it does not depend on that. It makes no difference how full the card is or what weather it is outside. It just sometimes does it and sometimes not! however 24FPS does it all the time. Any clue what is going on? 4K Footage shot by others with the NX1 on youtube looks way smoother than mine.

You have OIS and DIS off, right? Sometimes the DIS flips out on me, especially with ultrawide lenses. I've never had any issues when DIS is off. I'd be interested in seeing a clip that shows the problem if you have any.

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19 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

You have OIS and DIS off, right? Sometimes the DIS flips out on me, especially with ultrawide lenses. I've never had any issues when DIS is off. I'd be interested in seeing a clip that shows the problem if you have any.

I only use the NX1 to film 100/120 fps footage, so I found only one clip I filmed when I tested the 25fps. I don`t have the camera with me right now. Here it is:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mvDSv-O0Oh8cuGVyKi_GXiJbSNqYhzt-
It is a 25 fps 1080p clip I did before any hack. DIS is always off, sometimes i turn the OIS on, when I don`t have a gimbal with me, but it makes no difference on the jitter. It`s filmed with the samsung S 16-50mm OIS lens. Now imagine the same jitter but way worse and you`ll get an idea what 4K looks like. Plus the shutter roll on 4K is SO bad, even with slow pans.

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What is your shutter speed? It looks like a lack of motion blur. If your shutter is significantly faster than 180 degrees, low framerate videos will appear "jumpy" as your eye sees individual frames rather than being fooled into seeing motion. The increased sharpness if 4K would exacerbate the problem.

Check out: https://frames-per-second.appspot.com/ and check the presets to compare images with and without motion blur.

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26 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

What is your shutter speed? It looks like a lack of motion blur. If your shutter is significantly faster than 180 degrees, low framerate videos will appear "jumpy" as your eye sees individual frames rather than being fooled into seeing motion. The increased sharpness if 4K would exacerbate the problem.

Check out: https://frames-per-second.appspot.com/ and check the presets to compare images with and without motion blur.

It`s possible that it`s a bit faster than the 180 rule, I remember, that I didn`t have an ND filter with me that day, but I had the aperture closed (the far away objects are pretty much in focus) so probably not a lot faster. BUT, I know all about the technical side of cameras and how things work in camera and in-brain. I only break the 180 rule as an effect, and non of the other cameras I have worked with have jitter that bad with the same settings. I have filmed "fast pan metal video type of action" with shutter speeds of 1/400 (with other cameras) and there is no jitter effect like that..just instant "in the face" shake effect.

Also 4K footage filmed by others using the 180 rule on the NX1 is nothing alike my camera`s. I basically can film only still shots, where nothing is moving. Walking with the camera is out of the question even if it is on a gimbal. I bought the camera way back, a little after it was released, so I don`t remember if it had the same problem back then, but 1080p was ok. (I had no computer to edit 4k so I never filmed in 4K) Maybe an update did something? In the beginning, they had a lot of updates and bug fixes.

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26 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

What is your shutter speed? It looks like a lack of motion blur. If your shutter is significantly faster than 180 degrees, low framerate videos will appear "jumpy" as your eye sees individual frames rather than being fooled into seeing motion. The increased sharpness if 4K would exacerbate the problem.

Check out: https://frames-per-second.appspot.com/ and check the presets to compare images with and without motion blur.

It`s possible that it`s a bit faster than the 180 rule, I remember, that I didn`t have an ND filter with me that day, but I had the aperture closed (the far away objects are pretty much in focus) so probably not a lot faster. BUT, I know all about the technical side of cameras and how things work in camera and in-brain. I only break the 180 rule as an effect, and non of the other cameras I have worked with have jitter that bad with the same settings. I have filmed "fast pan metal video type of action" with shutter speeds of 1/400 (with other cameras) and there is no jitter effect like that..just instant "in the face" shake effect.

Also 4K footage filmed by others using the 180 rule on the NX1 is nothing alike my camera`s. I basically can film only still shots, where nothing is moving. Walking with the camera is out of the question even if it is on a gimbal. I bought the camera way back, a little after it was released, so I don`t remember if it had the same problem back then, but 1080p was ok. (I had no computer to edit 4k so I never filmed in 4K) Maybe an update did something? In the beginning, they had a lot of updates and bug fixes.

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@DaveBerg

In your footage I see virtually no motion blur, so I think that particular clip is a fast shutter.

To be honest, I'm don't see the jitter you are talking about. It's possible that you have a more critical eye than me, or even that I am so used to an NX1 that I am blind to it. If you get a chance, can you do a side by side with another camera that doesn't have the jitter? Preferably in 4k so it's super obvious. If you don't have the camera with you then no hurry, we can always keep investigating this later.

Another possibility is that the player you are using has issues with its HEVC decoder, which would explain why you see it and I don't. Here on EOSHD we've already discovered problems using the builtin Windows 10 HEVC decoder inside Da Vinci Resolve Free. (This seems unlikely to be the cause, but worth mentioning as we haven't ruled it out yet). If this is the case, then if I transcode your jittery files on my end to, say, ProRes, then the jitter should disappear.

2 hours ago, DaveBerg said:

Also 4K footage filmed by others using the 180 rule on the NX1 is nothing alike my camera`s.

If this is true, then it's either a problem with your settings or a genuine glitch/broken part in your camera. (Hopefully the former!). However, if you are viewing transcoded footage then it could still be a decoder issue. What firmware do you have? Any hacks currently or previously installed? Does it occur with all lenses? To rule out lens issues, have you tested it with an adapted manual lens?

If you tell me a specific set of settings (exposure, picture profile, white balance), I'm happy to shoot some tests on my end and send the files for you to look at.

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Thank You very much for all the replies. I`m on holiday, but when I get back to work, I`ll shoot someting in 4k. If i remember correctly, the firmware is 1.41? (the last they made) and the hack I got from this forum here. That is the only hack I have ever installed. The lens makes no difference. I don`t really use any other lenses on the NX1 but the S 16-50mm OIS. However I have some adapters for some vintage lenses and the footage is still jumpy. 

I usually shoot with the gamma DR setting (sharpness-10; contrast - 6 to -8; satiration -4 to -1; and RGB I have the green a little bit down and blue a bit up. Somebody suggested it in a forum). But I read about the RGB boost option with the normal gamma setting, and will try this out! Gamma DR can`t handle skin tones. It`s almost like it draws over faces (but I also am a bad color grader and a little bit color blind (some shades of blue and green look the same to me and get mixed in with shades of brown :P). When filming people, I use the normal Gamma setting and make a custom picture profile for a flatter picture. 

Also a side note. When I film in 50FPS (shutter 1/60) and render or convert it to 25 FPS, the footage is smoother than 25FPS shutter 1/50. Its also very smooth when I film 100 FPS and play it back 4 times slower for 25 fps. I know that has to do with the slow motion slower pans and shakes, the difference is still strong.

As for the decoder problem. I see the jitter on any device with any program. 

If it really is all in my brain, its a deeper kind of psychological problem 😄  I see it only in footage I have filmed 😛 

Thanks again for You`re time and commitment!

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@DaveBerg No problem, I'm really curious to find out what exactly is going on. Earlier today I did a number of tests. I tried PAL 25, 50, NTSC 29.97, and 24. First I compared with an old Olympus camera I had lying around. I almost came back and said I saw what you meant about jitter, because the Olympus has a "smoother" look on pans. It may be due more to a softer image/more compression, though, because I also tested against my friend's XT3 and there I don't see a difference. I put this together as a quick example: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zdEhB_CPPQyC612tR5aElDlxnMd9WXNd

How does that video compare with what you observe on your footage? I used the settings you said, except that both the XT3 and NX1 are shooting 24.00 fps with a 1/50 shutter. The Fuji has a Flog/Fgamut to 709/Eterna LUT thrown on.

I did notice that the Fuji looked smoother until I put the LUT on. The washed out appearance falsely smoother it over in my eyes. If I lower the contrast on the footage, it does appear to have smoother motion. In other words, lower dynamic range makes the sharp boundary between indoor and outdoor extra apparent at a low frame rate, almost "jittery". I don't know if this is the same "jitter" you are describing.

9 hours ago, DaveBerg said:

When I film in 50FPS (shutter 1/60) and render or convert it to 25 FPS, the footage is smoother than 25FPS shutter 1/50.

50 fps with a 1/60 shutter (which is slowed down 2x) will have much more motion blur than 25 fps with a 1/50 shutter.

 

10 hours ago, DaveBerg said:

Gamma DR can`t handle skin tones. It`s almost like it draws over faces

I know what you mean! I use Gamma DR, but I spent a lot of time figuring out how to color grade it to where I want. It goes from yuck to fantastic with some tweaking.

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Now this is weird. It looks about the same on my camera! I think I`ve gotten used to high frame rates and my brain just sees a series of frames in 24/25fps footage. A year of filming after movies for sporting events in 100/120 fps messes things up I guess. I totally get your point on less jitter on softer pictures. 25fps on the Sony a7ii (that has very little sharpness) looks way less jittery but viewing frame by frame, isn`t really. After reading Your comments, I started seeing the jitter on movies and music videos. Everything looks like crap now. I took a 4k clip, converted it down to 720p and it is way WAY smoother. However..my camera is defective and runs slow and drops frames when I use it for a long time non-stop and in hot weather.Or its my old memory card. I found a lot of old material from a hot summer. Thats probably why I thought that it sometimes is and sometimes isn`t jittery. I just saw the difference in the moment. Jeez I feel like an idiot here :)  While I`m making a fool out of myself, another question. Does your NX1 turn the picture all green sometimes. Again, it dose it when I`ve used it for a long period of time in a row and hot weather. Puff, and everything goes green.

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@DaveBerg Haha, I totally understand! I once tried gaming with a 4k monitor, but it was limited to 30 fps and I couldn't stand it! It really is just that we are used to "cinema" being really slow. I sometimes shoot whitewater kayaking at 120 as well. The motion is beautiful, really a night and day difference compared to 30 or 24. Although, I'm not sure I'm ready for that smoothness in a narrative film yet.

34 minutes ago, DaveBerg said:

However..my camera is defective and runs slow and drops frames when I use it for a long time non-stop and in hot weather.

I have issues like this too. I have an "80 MB/s" 32GB SanDisk that is too slow for 120 fps (though it works perfectly for 4k/24). Then I've got a pair of "45 MB/s" 16GB SanDisks that are somehow fast enough for 120. Doesn't really make sense to me. Actually, my NX1 is on its way out to be honest. It freezes from time to time, it even did so while shooting tests yesterday. Sometimes the screen is half black, or the menu won't come up. So far, battery pulls have fixed every problem... but I don't think I'll use it on real projects anymore.

39 minutes ago, DaveBerg said:

Does your NX1 turn the picture all green sometimes.

No, but I've seen other mentions of this glitch. My NX1 sometimes has weird color in single frames when using a Kelvin white balance. It's like I'm shooting in Gamma DR and then one frame will be in Gamma Normal. It only happens with a sudden change in exposure, like if I quickly close the aperture while shooting video. And only in Kelvin white balance mode. I never had any color issues in any white balance presets, or using a grey card, or even in AWB.

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