Super Members BTM_Pix Posted June 13, 2018 Super Members Share Posted June 13, 2018 This will probably only have an audience of one - hello @IronFilm - but might be of use for anyone else who has a need for what it does. So what is it? Its a small(ish) box that takes an HDMI input and encodes it into a live H.264 IP data stream that can then be used for monitoring or as an input source by devices on a local network or pushed to streaming services such as YouTube, Facebook etc. The version I have has an integrated Sony NP battery mount and hotshoe mount so is a completely standalone solution for use in the field but it can also be powered via a mains adapter. If you want to save some money and will only be using it in a studio environment then the version without the battery mount and hotshoe mount is also available. There is also a version with an integrated 4G modem so you can live broadcast from your camera on to YouTube or whatever service you use without any additional equipment. There is also an H.265 version available as well. Physically, the unit isn’t massive but isn’t what you would call compact either. Seen here on my LS300 camera (which ironically doesn’t need to use one because it has this stuff built in ) it looks in proportion but to be fair it does dwarf a small mirrorless camera a little bit. Seen here alongside its far more expensive alternative - the Teradek Vidiu - you can see that the base units its not that much bigger but obviously it gets much bigger when you slap the battery on as opposed to the Vidiu which has a built in rechargeable one. What has to be borne in mind though is the functionality you are getting here and should consider how much more unwieldy things would be if you had to mount a laptop to your A6500 as that would be the only way to get the same functionality. At this point, I’m going to have to say that if you’re not comfortable with some basic network configuration stuff then this product is not going to make you any more comfortable and you might want to walk away now OK, after plugging our camera into the HDMI port, we have to log in to the device and configure it. This is done by attaching an ethernet cable to the LAN port and typing in an address in a browser that brings up a control panel of the sort which will be familiar to you if you’ve ever setup a router. In here you set up all the options for the type of stream that you will be generating from the incoming camera signal and you can alter everything from re-scaling it, to frame rate and a wide range of quality settings from data rate to encoding profile. Most of it is self explanatory but you’d better get used to this interface because you’ll be seeing a lot of it as you tweak the settings for the optimum results. OK, so once its encoded your video and is merrily streaming it you can access it directly through its own LAN or WiFi interfaces or you via a wider network if you connect it to another router (which you will need to do if you want to get your stream out to the internet). This router can be anything from your home router to an internet access point in Starbucks or your mobile phone’s hotspot function for onward broadcast to the internet. So lets get down to some actual use cases. The first use - and the one that @IronFilmis waiting on - is to use it as a way of remote wireless monitoring on set from a camera. In this mode, we set it up as a WiFi access point and connect whatever device or devices to it that we want to monitor on and use a media player that can play network streams to watch it. Basically, any device that can run VLC will do so you use your phone, tablet, computer or even smart TV to monitor the signal. All you need to do is to enter the address that the stream is playing on into VLC and away you go. And if there are a few of you, then as you can see here with my MacBook, my iPad and my Android phone, you can all watch it together. Although, as I said, its more likely that you would use the encoder in access point mode for this, you could actually use a larger network infrastructure if you wanted to for extending the range and extent of the monitoring. These devices are used in this capacity to deliver digital TV service to hotel rooms so its very much a scalable thing ! The other use case that I have it for is to use to encode camera signals so that they can be accessed inside Live:Air which is Teradek’s live video production software that runs on the iPad. In this scenario, cameras can be connected to multiple encoder units which can then be brought into Live:Air and switched and have overlays added etc and streamed out to the internet for a pretty comprehensive live broadcast. When used in this way, the encoders and iPad are connected wirelessly though a portable 4G router to move the data around get the final output from Live:Air out on to the internet. The encoder can operate with 2.4G and 5G routers and clients. If you just want to do direct from the camera live broadcasts then the encoder can also be configured to overlay some lines of text and graphic logos onto the outgoing stream. Price wise, you can pick up the encoders for about £110 for the non battery version and about £180 for the version I’ve got. To be honest, you can easily knock up your own powering solutions for these for far less than the £70 difference so I’d be inclined to go for the lower priced one unless you need the really, really long run times you can get out of the NP ones. For comparison, even the basic version of the Teradek Vidiu (which doesn’t support the RTS protocol for monitoring on VLC) to encode live video for Live:Air or for YouTube broadcast is around £700 so it represents a significant saving - particularly for a multi-camera setup. So, is it any good? Yes for me but maybe not for you. It does what it needs to do well enough but the nature of the beast with these devices is that there will be latency and how much of that is acceptable is down to you and what you are using it for. The bigger problem is that this latency is also very dependent on how you configure it and your network infrastructure and even location if you are in a highly saturated place (which is where the 5G capability actually does help). All of this variance makes it difficult to recommend with any confidence purely as a MONITOR solution only. You can tweak away and noodle about with scaling down, bit rate, GOP, profiles etc and mitigate the latency but its never going to go away completely and I’d say that its difficult to find an acceptable balance thats not going to be below 1/2 a second. That doesn’t mean to say it is without utility when used as a monitoring solution but it would be in a secondary capacity as a distribution method where absolute real time instant monitoring isn’t necessary. So in this way you would loop it through from the primary operator’s monitor and allow everyone else on set to wirelessly monitor after that. There is also the question of how much real time you may need if you are using it in the capacity of primarily a framing monitor. If you have a Fuji XT/XH for example, this offers a solution to not being able to monitor and trigger the camera over wifi without it dropping to 720p resolution like it does with Fuji’s app. For Vlogging for example where you just want a remote view of the framing then this would give you that and allied with a cheap wireless shutter trigger you can get round the abysmal state of affairs with the Fuji app. Bear in mind that there is latency but not dropped frames. For my purposes of using it as a (much, much) cheaper way of getting camera signals into Live:Air than using Teradek’s own encoders then the latency is not an issue at all as each channel has an individual time align control to compensate for the latency. Similarly when broadcasting direct out of the camera to the internet, the latency at that level is not relevant. In summary then, if you have a need for the things that it does then it works well and is a huge saving on the alternatives. Its a bit clunky getting it going as the documentation wasn’t exactly readily available so I wasted a lot of time being unable to connect to it as an access point because the router address it uses when wireless is entirely different (and undocumented) to what it is when you are using the LAN port or it is in bridge mode.( Its 192.168.8.8 by the way ) Being able to live stream to YouTube directly out of your DSLR might not be something you want to do every day but if you ever have the need for it (especially away from the studio) then it doesn't come much cheaper and simpler (once you've unearthed the manual) than this. If you want to use it as your primary real time wireless monitor (other than just for framing or as per the Fuji example where its the only game in town) then I don’t think its the way to go because of the latency. If you are interested in purely doing that then I have another solution for that that is really low latency but thats for another day. Full product link here http://www.szuray.com/h-pd-84.html#_pp=0_304_9_-1 And here is the manual that you won’t find on their site either . User Manual Of Mini Video Encoder copy.pdf Paul Kemper, ntblowz, Urmas and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 At last, yay! 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: This will probably only have an audience of one - hello @IronFilm - but might be of use for anyone else who has a need for what it does. Haha! No, I think this thread will greatly interest many many people. As on set monitoring is so very very important. (at least once you get above the no budget one man crew size) Yet cabled monitors are a royal pain the ass to deal with, and wireless monitors are expensive dollars$$$ (and even the pro wireless gear can be troublesome! Not sure troublesome connections either. Did a feature film for a month earlier this year and their old Teradeks were quite noisy in quiet scenes! Sigh. But the noise from their Panavision director's monitor was even worse! I really had to put my foot down about that a few times). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: There is also an H.265 version available as well. What do you think of that, worth getting? Is nearly a hundred dollars extra for H.265 vs H.264: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/DHL-Free-Shipping-MPEG-4-H-264-HD-Wireless-wifi-HDMI-Encoder-for-IPTV-Live-Stream/2349192_32776561405.html https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Best-H-265-HEVC-H-264-AVC-Wifi-HDMI-IPTV-streaming-Encoder-for-live-streaming-Broadcast/2349192_32772827022.html Also have a SDI version for a little bit more: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/HEVC-H-265-H-264-HD-3G-SDI-To-IP-Encoder-SDI-RTSP-RTMP-Streaming-Encoder/2349192_32837037880.html But you'd lose out on HDMI, so I reckon I'll go for the full size HDMI version instead. (thankfully it isn't micro HDMI! Then the decision would be harder for me) 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: Physically, the unit isn’t massive but isn’t what you would call compact either. Seen here on my LS300 camera (which ironically doesn’t need to use one because it has this stuff built in ) it looks in proportion but to be fair it does dwarf a small mirrorless camera a little bit. Whoa, does seem a bit bigger than my mental image of it was. Still, not outlandishly so compared to some Teradecks. 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: The version I have has an integrated Sony NP battery mount and hotshoe mount so is a completely standalone solution for use in the field but it can also be powered via a mains adapter. If you want to save some money and will only be using it in a studio environment then the version without the battery mount and hotshoe mount is also available. Seems to be a relatively small price increase though for that version, so in my eyes a no brainer to buy even if only for studio usage just on the off chance you might in the future use it away from mains. 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: The other use case that I have it for is to use to encode camera signals so that they can be accessed inside Live:Air which is Teradek’s live video production software that runs on the iPad. In this scenario, cameras can be connected to multiple encoder units which can then be brought into Live:Air and switched and have overlays added etc and streamed out to the internet for a pretty comprehensive live broadcast. Fascinating! So it is compatible with Teradek's own iOS software. 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: All of this variance makes it difficult to recommend with any confidence purely as a MONITOR solution only. You can tweak away and noodle about with scaling down, bit rate, GOP, profiles etc and mitigate the latency but its never going to go away completely and I’d say that its difficult to find an acceptable balance thats not going to be below 1/2 a second. Interesting. So this product is completely unacceptable as for wireless focus pulling (on anything but the lowest of low budget shoots), no surprises here, but should be perfectly good enough for anything else? 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: At this point, I’m going to have to say that if you’re not comfortable with some basic network configuration stuff then this product is not going to make you any more comfortable and you might want to walk away now Seems like a non-issue if you've ever set up a router before and are cable of the difficult task of following instructions through. 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: Price wise, you can pick up the encoders for about £110 for the non battery version and about £180 for the version I’ve got. To be honest, you can easily knock up your own powering solutions for these for far less than the £70 difference so I’d be inclined to go for the lower priced one unless you need the really, really long run times you can get out of the NP ones. An alternative viewpoint (if ever using it on paid shoots) is the NP-F version (which has LEDs which shows remaining battery left? That is a nice touch!) is a relatively small extra cost (and I'm seeing a much smaller than £70 difference in cost, maybe I'm looking at this wrong?) which helps the whole set up look more "pro" rather than dodgy DIY, and as this already a very non-standard setup (it isn't a Teradek! Which are very recognizable) why risk it looking any less acceptable than it is already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: Being able to live stream to YouTube directly out of your DSLR might not be something you want to do every day but if you ever have the need for it (especially away from the studio) then it doesn't come much cheaper and simpler (once you've unearthed the manual) than this. This is a key 2nd point for me! (main one of course being on set monitoring) Although not just from a DSLR (from my PMW-F3 or BMPCC would be nice as well). As got a Skype interview soon with a fairly big YouTuber for his channel, plus I'd like to regularly do this for my own YT channel as well. Rather use a better camera for Skype/YouTube Live than my own cellphone! 7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: What was the purpose of the color chart for the streaming stream? Can the app adjust colors? Or for checking the cameras against each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted June 14, 2018 Author Super Members Share Posted June 14, 2018 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: What do you think of that, worth getting? Is nearly a hundred dollars extra for H.265 vs H.264: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/DHL-Free-Shipping-MPEG-4-H-264-HD-Wireless-wifi-HDMI-Encoder-for-IPTV-Live-Stream/2349192_32776561405.html https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Best-H-265-HEVC-H-264-AVC-Wifi-HDMI-IPTV-streaming-Encoder-for-live-streaming-Broadcast/2349192_32772827022.html Also have a SDI version for a little bit more: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/HEVC-H-265-H-264-HD-3G-SDI-To-IP-Encoder-SDI-RTSP-RTMP-Streaming-Encoder/2349192_32837037880.html But you'd lose out on HDMI, so I reckon I'll go for the full size HDMI version instead. (thankfully it isn't micro HDMI! Then the decision would be harder for me) You'd have to think that the reduced data rate of the H.265 version would be of benefit but I've never tried it. Also, it would depend on the speed of the encoder and whether you are getting a benefit end to end in terms of latency. 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: Whoa, does seem a bit bigger than my mental image of it was. Still, not outlandishly so compared to some Teradecks. No, not compared to their higher end ones but it is a bit more of a footprint than the Vidius which I would imagine anyone looking at these would be comparing it too. 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: Seems to be a relatively small price increase though for that version, so in my eyes a no brainer to buy even if only for studio usage just on the off chance you might in the future use it away from mains. An alternative viewpoint (if ever using it on paid shoots) is the NP-F version (which has LEDs which shows remaining battery left? That is a nice touch!) is a relatively small extra cost (and I'm seeing a much smaller than £70 difference in cost, maybe I'm looking at this wrong?) which helps the whole set up look more "pro" rather than dodgy DIY, and as this already a very non-standard setup (it isn't a Teradek! Which are very recognizable) why risk it looking any less acceptable than it is already? I got that price differential from a random search yesterday on Aliexpress so could be a special offer or stock clearance but it is usually not far off that. The non-battery version appeal would be in the reduction of the form factor as well as budgetary really. The power input is a 12v barrel so it can be powered from a dtap or a £1.50 usb to 12v barrel adapter so it could be attached to existing power sources on a rig in the case of the former or to a slim usb bank attached to the top of it in the case of the latter. From a financial perspective, the saving would more or less pay for a pocket 4G router like this one, which would round off the system. 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: Interesting. So this product is completely unacceptable as for wireless focus pulling (on anything but the lowest of low budget shoots), no surprises here, but should be perfectly good enough for anything else? Yes, it is totally unacceptable for that. If its viewed, if you pardon the pun, as a framing monitor and a distribution device then its acceptable (especially for Fuji owners who have no alternative of viewing on a smartphone without sending their camera's recording resolution back to 2005). I'd take anything monitoring wise with this as a bonus over its primary functionality. 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: Seems like a non-issue if you've ever set up a router before and are cable of the difficult task of following instructions through. Its the finding the instructions that is the difficult task though Especially that when you turn it into wireless AP mode it has an entirely different (and undocumented) addressing system which means you can't find the address for the stream but worse still the address for the control panel. It doesn't reveal its router address in network control panel so there was a lot of head scratching and probing going on until I found it hidden away when I got back in using the ethernet port. I almost had to email them ! 5 hours ago, IronFilm said: Fascinating! So it is compatible with Teradek's own iOS software. What was the purpose of the color chart for the streaming stream? Can the app adjust colors? Or for checking the cameras against each other? Yes, Live:Air can take in RTSP streams as camera sources, so you can see in the panel next to the colour charts is the feed from my LS300 which has the streaming function built in. The colour chart was just what I had the camera (the A6500) with the Uray attached pointing at at the time I did the screenshot as I don't have a cat as a test subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: You'd have to think that the reduced data rate of the H.265 version would be of benefit but I've never tried it. Also, it would depend on the speed of the encoder and whether you are getting a benefit end to end in terms of latency. Have you not tried it because you don't own the H.265 version or "just because"? (also a valid reason! ) I'm right on the edge of buying one asap, I will for sure, just have the one last decision to make of if the H.265 version is worth the extra $$$? I don't think it is, but worth considering at least. 4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: The colour chart was just what I had the camera (the A6500) with the Uray attached pointing at at the time I did the screenshot as I don't have a cat as a test subject. A test video without a cat? Hersey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted June 14, 2018 Author Super Members Share Posted June 14, 2018 36 minutes ago, IronFilm said: Have you not tried it because you don't own the H.265 version or "just because"? (also a valid reason! ) I'm right on the edge of buying one asap, I will for sure, just have the one last decision to make of if the H.265 version is worth the extra $$$? I don't think it is, but worth considering at least. I don't own the H.264 version. Logic would tell me that it would be worth it and I do regret it a bit to be honest. The non-battery H.265 version is the same price that I paid for the battery version of the H.264 and on balance it would've been better as I could have made a lower profile battery solution anyway. I might actually end up with one of them as well now that I know they work for what I need them for as extra channel inputs for cameras are never a bad thing. 36 minutes ago, IronFilm said: A test video without a cat? Hersey! I know, right? I think these are the perfect storm for camera tests. Cats and colour charts in one go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 10 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: I don't own the H.264 version. 90% sure that was a typo and you meant H.265? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted June 15, 2018 Author Super Members Share Posted June 15, 2018 9 hours ago, IronFilm said: 90% sure that was a typo and you meant H.265? Add another 10% to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I'm surprised this thread doesn't have more interest! As it should have some interest to most people in this forum. For instance any film shoot! (well, any bigger than super small one many band shoots) As all shoots could do with more monitoring options. Plus the people who wish to stream themselves (with something better than a smartphone) must be a fairly sizable chunk of the community as well. 8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: Add another 10% to that So you mean "I.292" rather than H.265? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/859076-REG/Teradek_CUBE_255_Cube_255_HDMI_Encoder.html Well the Teradeck Cube is on sale now. But even at sub $1K it is still far far too expensive for my tastes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buggz Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Interesting to me also. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 16 hours ago, IronFilm said: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/859076-REG/Teradek_CUBE_255_Cube_255_HDMI_Encoder.html Well the Teradeck Cube is on sale now. But even at sub $1K it is still far far too expensive for my tastes! Yeah but then you Need this most of the time. The Decoder! https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1348436-REG/teradek_10_0675_cube_675_avc_hdmi_sdi.html/pageID/accessory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 5 hours ago, buggz said: Interesting to me also. Ah, FINALLY! We get a commentator in this thread who is not me or BTM-Pix. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Just doing a massive spending splurge tonight it seems, purchased not just the F8n, but also an iPod Touch and iPad Mini as well to use with the F8n's app, and.... finally got around to pulling the trigger on buying this wireless video transmitter! Is paid for, now all I need to do is wait a couple of months for it to get from China to NZ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted June 24, 2018 Author Super Members Share Posted June 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, IronFilm said: Just doing a massive spending splurge tonight it seems, purchased not just the F8n, but also an iPod Touch and iPad Mini as well to use with the F8n's app, and.... finally got around to pulling the trigger on buying this wireless video transmitter! Is paid for, now all I need to do is wait a couple of months for it to get from China to NZ! And with the split screen function of the iPad you can have the F8n app and VLC open on the same screen to control the F8n and monitor the video Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 True true True! I was thinking I'd only use the iPad for stationary/cart situations. And use the iPod Touch most of the time in the bag, but that is a good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buggz Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 On 6/20/2018 at 6:41 AM, IronFilm said: Ah, FINALLY! We get a commentator in this thread who is not me or BTM-Pix. ? I just don't have the time to actually read the wonderful looking write up. Really wanting to, perhaps this weekend, though, wanting to see the new lizard movie with my niece, plus who knows what else will happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 It has arrived! :-o A bit of a rubbish video by myself, but meh! And my girlfriend, bless her heart, but I think a tripod would have done a better job as a camera person than she did! :-/ webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I'm guessing I can use this as a camera for Skype chats? Well, it is something I'll find out very soon next week! My plan is to use a Halter Technical Field Monitor to listen to the Skyper call at the other end, without their voice getting picked up on my end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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