2018 - The year of the VDSLRs?

[kye]

20 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, I've seen the video, but I don't feel the Rode guy is doing justice to the mic in pitching its proper usage. 

You're better off using a well placed shotgun instead, be it a CS3e or SuperCMIT or 816 or whatever. 

This is the point of having an array of microphones to compliment a 360 degree camera..  when you shoot with a 360 camera the beauty is that you choose what angle you look in post, therefore to match this you also want to be able to choose the angle you listen to in post as well.

We are talking about a fundamental change in film-making.  Today = choose what to record.  Tomorrow = record everything and choose in post.

[Edit, to be clear, I'm not saying that this usage is what the microphone is for, I'm saying that it could be used this way for the benefit of directional audio that is steerable in post]

[IronFilm]

24 minutes ago, kye said:

This is the point of having an array of microphones to compliment a 360 degree camera..  when you shoot with a 360 camera the beauty is that you choose what angle you look in post, therefore to match this you also want to be able to choose the angle you listen to in post as well.

Now you understand the main usage of this for filmmakers, it is for use with VR cameras. 

 

24 minutes ago, kye said:

We are talking about a fundamental change in film-making.  Today = choose what to record.  Tomorrow = record everything and choose in post.

Sorry, I was wrong. As nope, you're still not getting it. 

As a well placed boom mic will still be a much much better idea than one ambisonic mic stationary positioned in the scene!

And I see next to zero chance this will change any time over the next decade. (sure, maybe in the very long term this might happen, and also we might all grow wings and learn to fly via genetic engineering. Who knows!)

[BTM_Pix]

Yeah, I think the expectations of what it can achieve as a skilled boom operator replacements need to be re-adjusted somewhat.

It is a brilliant technology but the real revolution here is that it is now available at a fraction of the price that it has been for the past 30 years.

Its primary application has largely been in classical music recording and latterly sports broadcasting as a steerable stadium mic.

This demo of a B format plug in shows what you can expect in a pseudo shotgun mode.

Its good but, its no substitute for a Kiwi with a beard just yet

 

[Kisaha]

Sennheiser is offering Ambeo for a couple of years now. It is in my buying list for 2020!

@kye you are mixing so many things together that is hard for people to reply to you or follow your thoughts. I seriously am not sure if you are trolling, you are very very young, or very optimistic about technology and laws of physics no one has understand and describe yet (especially in sound wave transmission and acoustics in general).

If you are going to the Zoo with a full rigged camera, take care and look after your kids, and in the same time you measure for focus, have your light meter to check aperture and hold a boom mic to capture clear audio of your kids make fun on the girraffes 5 metres from your camera setuo, then I have to inform you than not a lot of people, if any, in the whole world would do the same.

Then, you want a microphone, in reasonable price, always, that will eradicate and annihilate hundrend of thousands of audio professionals?

There are so many people specialized in sound, because there is a need for them.

[kye]

Wow, ok..  Let me try and clarify

@IronFilm You are right about one mic placed in the scene being superior.  I believe this will change, but not for a long time (as you say, maybe decades - when I said 'tomorrow' I wasn't meaning in 24 hours time, obviously).  
What I am saying is that even though it's not what this mic is designed for, it is a feature that it has.  This feature will be useful to some people, and there will be early adopters.  One of the early adopter markets will be 360 degree filming.
In narrative work, where every shot is carefully setup and people can be positioned offscreen then it makes sense to have a boom operator and a shotgun microphone.

One of the challenges of these forums is that people are coming at film-making with such different perspectives that people get confused about what people are saying.  I speak from the perspective of an amateur guerrilla run-and-gun film-maker who passively captures what occurs, rather than shaping what happens.  I realise that I am by far the minority on here, but to compensate, I do try and be really obvious about where I'm coming from.  I apologise if that wasn't obvious enough.

@Kisaha it's funny to me because from my perspective I'm not mixing too many things together at all.  I see film-making as an incredibly complex system of business, art, technology, logistics, people-mangement, logistics, and all the other things that go into the creation of a two-dimensional pre-recorded piece of art that is designed to play linearly over a finite period of time.  
It's always funny to me when someone who points a camera at something and records it, then edits it, then colour corrects it, then exports and distributes it for other people to watch it turns around and says that someone else who follows exactly the same process is doing something completely different.  This happens between fictional film-makers and documentary film-makers, those who shoot for profit and those who shoot for fun, those who want their audience to feel vs those who want their audience to think, etc etc etc.  In fact these are all completely imaginary distinctions that people make up.  We are all just people trying to achieve our goals the best ways we know how.

Actually what I want is to go to the zoo and have the whole thing recorded with a minimum of equipment getting in the way of the experience.  To me, a 360 degree camera and a 360 degree microphone sounds like the perfect setup actually.  However, the tech isn't there yet, and won't be for some time.  As we've discussed, it needs 8K 360 cameras at least

In terms of what happens to the jobs of the hundreds of thousands of audio professionals, I would like for them to live happy and fulfilling lives doing what they love to do, in fair and supportive environments.  Technology is changing all the time and I just excited about talking about where it's headed.  Isn't that why we're all here on the forums instead of making films or doing something else

Sorry if I offended anyone.

[Kisaha]

13 minutes ago, kye said:

Wow, ok..  Let me try and clarify

@IronFilm You are right about one mic placed in the scene being superior.  I believe this will change, but not for a long time (as you say, maybe decades - when I said 'tomorrow' I wasn't meaning in 24 hours time, obviously).  
What I am saying is that even though it's not what this mic is designed for, it is a feature that it has.  This feature will be useful to some people, and there will be early adopters.  One of the early adopter markets will be 360 degree filming.
In narrative work, where every shot is carefully setup and people can be positioned offscreen then it makes sense to have a boom operator and a shotgun microphone.

One of the challenges of these forums is that people are coming at film-making with such different perspectives that people get confused about what people are saying.  I speak from the perspective of an amateur guerrilla run-and-gun film-maker who passively captures what occurs, rather than shaping what happens.  I realise that I am by far the minority on here, but to compensate, I do try and be really obvious about where I'm coming from.  I apologise if that wasn't obvious enough.

@Kisaha it's funny to me because from my perspective I'm not mixing too many things together at all.  I see film-making as an incredibly complex system of business, art, technology, logistics, people-mangement, logistics, and all the other things that go into the creation of a two-dimensional pre-recorded piece of art that is designed to play linearly over a finite period of time.  
It's always funny to me when someone who points a camera at something and records it, then edits it, then colour corrects it, then exports and distributes it for other people to watch it turns around and says that someone else who follows exactly the same process is doing something completely different.  This happens between fictional film-makers and documentary film-makers, those who shoot for profit and those who shoot for fun, those who want their audience to feel vs those who want their audience to think, etc etc etc.  In fact these are all completely imaginary distinctions that people make up.  We are all just people trying to achieve our goals the best ways we know how.

Actually what I want is to go to the zoo and have the whole thing recorded with a minimum of equipment getting in the way of the experience.  To me, a 360 degree camera and a 360 degree microphone sounds like the perfect setup actually.  However, the tech isn't there yet, and won't be for some time.  As we've discussed, it needs 8K 360 cameras at least

In terms of what happens to the jobs of the hundreds of thousands of audio professionals, I would like for them to live happy and fulfilling lives doing what they love to do, in fair and supportive environments.  Technology is changing all the time and I just excited about talking about where it's headed.  Isn't that why we're all here on the forums instead of making films or doing something else

Sorry if I offended anyone.

No! Excuse ME if I sounded too aggressive. I am always trying to help.

Unfortunately there are specific laws of physics that the simplest thing, isn't that simple!

I am sure in the near future AI engines with multiple microphones will choose automatically and mix appropriately all the sound sources it can control through complicated algorithms and true artificial intelligence.

Until then, we prefer directional mics, so we can "concentrate" on the most useful sound, usually what is in front of our camera/frame.

Having an experienced sound specialist with the right equipment is the best approach. My specialization is documentary, and I have worked in numerous productions, and recently in spontaneous travel shows e.t.c Believe it or not, the need for an experienced soundman is a nessecity. If you let the cameramen with 2 mics -for each camera, the sound would be almost unusuable.

The most "casual" and easy the shot seems, the most complicate and difficult is.

Imagine having 1 camera and 1 lens to operate, and at the same time I had 5 wireless and 1 boom. All those had batteries, needed to turned off and on accordingly, had to search for frequencies occassionally while booming the same time for safety and on the spot sound FX (e.g when they were cooking I had to do the sound FX gathering simultaneously with the boom) e.t.c 

I bet that most people believed that this was the easiest sound job ever! Actually on set and after rehearsals are the easiest jobs (depending the director and if they stick to the script and rehearsals), live and on documentaries a sound man shows his/hers worth.

I always propose the Sennheiser 440, I own one too, it is a stereo mic, with DIRECTIONAL capsules. Until the machine takes control - just before the end of humanity in reality -this is an excellent solution.

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Sennheiser is offering Ambeo for a couple of years now. It is in my buying list for 2020!

Buy it in 2018!! By getting the Rode NT-SF1 instead for a fraction of the cost. 

Although the support Zoom (and soon in the future MixPre series as well) has for the AMBEO B format means I wonder if the extra cost makes it worth it. 

Oh hey, there is a secondhand one up for sale:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sennheiser-AMBEO-VR-MIC-Microphone-3D-AUDIO-capture/183172958311

 

11 hours ago, kye said:

@IronFilm You are right about one mic placed in the scene being superior.  I believe this will change, but not for a long time (as you say, maybe decades - when I said 'tomorrow' I wasn't meaning in 24 hours time, obviously).  

Ah good, we're on the same page in that regards then. As without that qualifier of it being "decades away" (and heck, who knows what might be happening then... movies as we know it might be dead! Everything tapped straight into our brain stem instead) then a person viewing this thread could easily get the wrong impression that this is relevant to something today. 

 

 

11 hours ago, kye said:

One of the early adopter markets will be 360 degree filming.
In narrative work, where every shot is carefully setup and people can be positioned offscreen then it makes sense to have a boom operator and a shotgun microphone.

Even (or especially?) with 360 degree filmmaking you are carefully setting up and thinking about each shot. 

I worked on a 360VR shoot last month (doing sound for the crew, using an ambisonic mic) and each and every shot was carefully done, is why we did nearly a whole week of filming with full days. 

 

11 hours ago, kye said:

One of the challenges of these forums is that people are coming at film-making with such different perspectives that people get confused about what people are saying.  I speak from the perspective of an amateur guerrilla run-and-gun film-maker who passively captures what occurs, rather than shaping what happens.  I realise that I am by far the minority on here, but to compensate, I do try and be really obvious about where I'm coming from.  I apologise if that wasn't obvious enough.

I think for your needs of run-and-gun with no crew, then you'd be better off chucking a lav on each person then crossing your fingers as you pray and hope for the best, than to use an ambisonic mic (where would you place it?! On top of your camera?!). 

 

11 hours ago, kye said:

Actually what I want is to go to the zoo and have the whole thing recorded with a minimum of equipment getting in the way of the experience.  To me, a 360 degree camera and a 360 degree microphone sounds like the perfect setup actually.  However, the tech isn't there yet, and won't be for some time.  As we've discussed, it needs 8K 360 cameras at least

For what delivery medium? For 360VR delivery? Or conventional HD (or 4K) 16:9? (or 2.35 aspect ratio or whatever)

 

10 hours ago, Kisaha said:

No! Excuse ME if I sounded too aggressive. I am always trying to help.

Are you a teeny bit part Canadian? 

 

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Unfortunately there are specific laws of physics that the simplest thing, isn't that simple!

I am sure in the near future AI engines with multiple microphones will choose automatically and mix appropriately all the sound sources it can control through complicated algorithms and true artificial intelligence.

I could easily imagine a future  a decade or three down the tracks where AI robots have "stolen our jobs!" 

 

HOWEVER,  I don't believe the way this would happen is by using an ambisonic mic that then "focuses" in on what is wanted. 

Rather it would instead by via liberal usage of lavs (and/or plant mics) which then gets agressively cleaned up via super advanced AI like we're already starting to see in the likes of programs such as iZotope RX (together with advanced automixing). Which then ends up producing quite usable dialogue even from sloppily used lavs. 

 

11 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Having an experienced sound specialist with the right equipment is the best approach. My specialization is documentary, and I have worked in numerous productions, and recently in spontaneous travel shows e.t.c Believe it or not, the need for an experienced soundman is a nessecity. If you let the cameramen with 2 mics -for each camera, the sound would be almost unusuable.

The most "casual" and easy the shot seems, the most complicate and difficult is.

Imagine having 1 camera and 1 lens to operate, and at the same time I had 5 wireless and 1 boom. All those had batteries, needed to turned off and on accordingly, had to search for frequencies occassionally while booming the same time for safety and on the spot sound FX (e.g when they were cooking I had to do the sound FX gathering simultaneously with the boom) e.t.c 

I bet that most people believed that this was the easiest sound job ever! Actually on set and after rehearsals are the easiest jobs (depending the director and if they stick to the script and rehearsals), live and on documentaries a sound man shows his/hers worth.

Saw this posted on FB, worth sharing on this topic:

 

Quote

The "REALITY" is:
A Sound Mixer, Sound Recordist, and Sound Engineer are THREE different people, with different backgrounds, training and experience.
To expect that ONE guy can wire a half dozen non-professional talent, scan channels/change freqs/check 3IM app, listen to 6 tracks, record 2 mixes, jam a digital slate, provide hops, provide IFB, provide lock-its, wield a boom, and run around around all day carrying the shit? >> is absolutely insane!
Oh and lets not forget; "We have a special guest talent (a relative), please wire her up right away, we don't have much time to grab this". Crap, which mic do I pull, who's closest? Oh shit, she's wearing a strapless Taffeta/Crepe number, and its see-thru! Hmm, who has the B6? Is that the one wired for the Zax, or the Lectro? Where is the white leg strap? Huh, we're using C cam? Did they turn off the Lock-It when they did 'B'Roll? Does that cam have the StarLink or the Terradek? What day was that? Oh we're using new media for this, sure gimme a sec to re-format. Dammit did I change the batteries in the that transmitter? Oh wait, remember to check the NP-1. Shit did I change the mirror track? What, you need another IFB for her husband?
Yet we do it. And how? You "non-sound" people haven't got a clue. Firstly we dont record "sounds". We record "primary dialog". Next we dont "listen" to what is being said. Afterall we only have 2 ears, right? Just try to separate your ears to discern 2 different sources, let alone which mic you just heard that scratchiness on? Was it a loose mic, or a ponytail suddenly on the wrong side, or a nylon vest, cell phone? Was that talent even on camera? Do you have any idea the level of concentration required? Its a mindfuck!
Of course we "hear" that things are being said, but we are "listening" for something that doesn't "belong". Then our experience and knowledge kick in to an efficient resolution. Which can be most difficult without an assistant - A TRAINED ASSISTANT.
We work miracles, by ourselves, everyday, around the world. We save your asses. We make your production work, we fix your edits, we solve issues each shoot that you dont even "hear" about. Pun intended.
We certainly deserve double what we are offered, for that which you so easily take for granted (heck, 6 wireless alone are $600/day = $60/hr)….and gives us a headache at the end of each day.

 

[kye]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Ah good, we're on the same page in that regards then. As without that qualifier of it being "decades away" (and heck, who knows what might be happening then... movies as we know it might be dead! Everything tapped straight into our brain stem instead) then a person viewing this thread could easily get the wrong impression that this is relevant to something today. 

Well, it's relevant to me today, but I'm a very long way away from the 'industry', so it's not really relevant to anyone who gets paid for audio in film work.

This is where we run into the difficulties of people having vastly different expectations and involvement in film-making! 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I think for your needs of run-and-gun with no crew, then you'd be better off chucking a lav on each person then crossing your fingers as you pray and hope for the best, than to use an ambisonic mic

A lav mic for each person is a logical choice, although I am reminded of the FB quote that you shared - tracking batteries and all that stuff is something I'm trying to avoid.  Besides, getting two teenage kids to wear a LAV mic all day would be almost as painful as having to replace them every 3 months because the kids don't take any care with technology whatsoever.  My daughter is onto her third iPhone in two years just through being careless (she's a dreamer and just not aware that her phone will fall out of her pocket if she does a handstand or whatever) and my son thinks that dropping a pair of headphones onto the floor in a moment of exasperation when he dies on xbox and then picking them up by the cord when he starts the next game is still within our instructions to "be careful and treat them properly" - I'll leave you to imagine how long a pair of headphones last in our house.

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

(where would you place it?! On top of your camera?!). 

That's the challenge with 360 cameras, it's hard not to get them in shot.  If the mics weren't built into the camera (like they are in others) then on top would be the logical choice.  You'd have to then treat the camera like it has a blind spot, but considering that a standard wide-angle has a 'blind-spot' of 270 degrees, it's still a huge step up in terms of coverage of a scene.

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

For what delivery medium? For 360VR delivery? Or conventional HD (or 4K) 16:9? (or 2.35 aspect ratio or whatever)

In terms of delivery format I'd film in 360, and crop to 16:9 or 2.35 or whatever suited the vibe of the video (16:9 for more life-like and 2.35 for more cinematic) and then delivery via YouTube as an unlisted video.  Then the relatives can all view it from the link that I email them, and I avoid all technical compatibility playback issues.

To elaborate on how I'd use it, here are some thoughts:
- I'd film by holding it somewhere in front of us so it can see our faces as well as what we're looking at, or above and behind us for a follow-shot.
- If we're walking along and the kids see something funny and react to it I can have something like: shot 1 is wide of us walking, shot 2 is wide of what's in front of us, shot 3 is a medium of the thing they reacted to, shot 4 is close-up of their reaction, shot 5 is wider to include us reacting to their reaction, and shot 6 might be other people reacting to us all laughing or whatever.
- If it's an activity of some kind I can cut between us and what we're seeing or doing.
- It allows either continuity editing of different angles of a scene shot once in real-time, or I can even do the classic suspense technique of having shots overlap in time, so that shot 2 starts at a moment in time slightly earlier than shot 1 ended on.

For me it's about always having the camera already pointed at whatever is happening before it happens, and the 360 camera does this by always being pointed at everything.  With a traditional camera if you're trying to film a situation you're often caught where something happens and by the time you point the camera at it then the moment is over.

[IronFilm]

15 minutes ago, kye said:

 My daughter is onto her third iPhone in two years just through being careless (she's a dreamer and just not aware that her phone will fall out of her pocket if she does a handstand or whatever) and my son thinks that dropping a pair of headphones onto the floor in a moment of exasperation when he dies on xbox and then picking them up by the cord when he starts the next game is still within our instructions to "be careful and treat them properly" - I'll leave you to imagine how long a pair of headphones last in our house.

My all time record is 13 phones gone through in a single year. So your daughter is not doing too bad!

[kye]

9 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

My all time record is 13 phones gone through in a single year. So your daughter is not doing too bad!

Ouch!!

Luckily they're getting more robust with each update.  Waterproofing and drop-proofing are killer features.  I took my iPhone 8 swimming with me at the beach when I first got it to test the waterproofing and see if it was an alternative to the GoPro.  I even (accidentally) did the opposite of their suggestions when I plugged it in to the computer without giving it a few hours to dry out.  Still works fine, and the video looks incredible.  1080p240 in full-sun at 400% video bitrate (via an app) is very impressive.

[IronFilm]

Maybe mk3 of this camera series is what you'll want:
 

 

[kye]

2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Maybe mk3 of this camera series is what you'll want:

It depends on how 'intelligent' it really is.  I won't be holding my breath!

[IronFilm]

That is why I said mk3! But knowing Canon maybe you need to wait for the mk30