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redimp

Help me choose a 12 bit 444 2K cam

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I'm sort of populating threads, but the last one turned into Sony F3 love thread, and I was not sure what I was looking for in terms of image, now I sort of am (I guess?).

I'm working on a scenario for a music video/short that involves indoor/outdoor scenes with a tad of action and lots of slow paced camera movement. I'm collaborating with a DP who is much more experienced then me (worked on lots of big productions with top gear). I am looking to buy a camera, for this particular project, but also to have freedom to start new projects later and use same gear.

I was keen that I only need HD, people sort of persuaded me I want 4k, but now I have re-grouped and I am 100% sure I will be producing HD/2k content, it will go to youtube, so there's that.

I am a lens enthusiast, I have hacked/rehoused my iscorama, also I have a very nice set of spherical lomo glass, so I am looking for a PL or interchangeable mount camera to use with what I have. I owned several small sensor cams before, and I want to go at least 1.6 crop (1.5 ideally), so true super 35.

I have a very stretchable budget, but would love not to spend all of it on a body, and have some cash for other things.

My heart was sort of set on Canon C300 after watching some movies people recommended on this forum (Blue is the warmest color, Blue ruin). That image was so detailed, I could swear I'm watching 4k! But I have downloaded some footage and tried to grade it, and if you do a basic grade it hols up just fine, but If I try to go creative about it (tried all-yellow sodium vapor kinda look from some blade runner 2049 scenes) the image started falling apart. It graded worse then my micro camera footage, I guess it's 8 bit vs 12 bit raw in a play here. The footage is sharp, I love it, but I think 8 bit is a limitation I would like to avoid. As you can see from this – I am quite inexperienced in this matter :)

I though I could get a Gemini to pair with c300, but I've read it outputs 8 bit only even to external recorders.

The other option I see that would fall within these specs would be the F3+recorder, but my DP hates the cam, says he can't work with it, and I trust his opinion here, so that is not an option for me.

Now to the question – does the cam I'm looking for even exist? 2k, good DR, good codec that will easily grade, 1.5x crop, cinematic motion cadence. Internal NDs would be awesome too. I know old Alexas sort of fall in this category, but they go for 10k, and that's not within my budget even.

I know Ursa does all this, but I'm scared that I'll have to get a LOT of expensive light for it, and the ready-to-shoot package will get me to $7k+ as I wouldn't risk to buy it used, so my hopes are that there's something cheaper out there maybe?

I would not get any of sony FS cams, as we both dislike sony colors. Also I would definitely not get a GH5 with speedbooster, it simply won't work.

Any ideas of a good fit here? 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

You probably won't get any cheaper than an Ursa, & theres also the new C200 which falls in a similar price range. Maybe a used, old RED? Is there a reason why you need 444 12 bit? The new Panasonic EVA1 will be (supposedly) released in a week or two but with 4:2:2 10 bit, which imo is more than enough.  You can get a couple of red heads for cheap if you opt for the Ursa, or for any camera for that matter. Aputure has some pretty cheap lights too if you wanna go LED.

Personally I find that the C300 holds up really well as long as you've done some lighting, it doesn't need much grading at all - but personally I wouldn't get a C300 in this day of age. I think we've also gotten to a point where you might aswell just get 4K in your camera even if you don't intend to use it.

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You will still get the best HD/2K delivery quality from a 4K camera even if you never deliver in 4K. A Sony FS700 + Odyssey 7Q goes for $3-4k nowadays and can shoot great 4K 12-bit raw. And it can also do high fps for slow-mo, which may be appealing for your music video/slow movement scenes.

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9 minutes ago, sondreg said:

Is there a reason why you need 444 12 bit?

Well, was just looking for the best case scenario to be frank. The c300 footage hold up if you're going for a natural look, but as I've mentioned I felt 8 bit was not quite enough when I was trying to do a very stylized grading. 10 bit 422 will probably work in my case as well.

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6 hours ago, redimp said:

I know Ursa does all this, but I'm scared that I'll have to get a LOT of expensive light for it, and the ready-to-shoot package will get me to $7k+ as I wouldn't risk to buy it used, so my hopes are that there's something cheaper out there maybe?

I believe you should be getting that LOT of expensive light, either buying or renting, so that your experienced DP can give you excellent footage... that should be higher on your list than 12 bit 444 IMHO. I'd much rather have the "quality" footage from a good DP with enough lights, modifiers and lenses shooting 8 bit than poorly shot REDraw or ArriRaw. After all, if you like extremely stylised looks like Blade Runner's, you can shoot so that you have the look on camera...

Still, there's more than 8 bit-10 bit-12 bit to footage falling apart in grading. If you plan to grade heavily, it is a good idea to use a external recorder as bitrate and compression are as important as bit depth when it comes to banding/artifacts. I think 10bit Prores or DNx with a high bitrate holds pretty well in grading.

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Just now, TheRenaissanceMan said:

F35? Global shutter, S35, 12-bit 4:4:4, insanely detailed 1080p, PL mount, great DR/look. Only downside is it's a bit light-hungry and physically bulky, but they're extremely affordable these days if you look around.

Was looking at those, starting 5.5 grand on ebay. Same as UMP. Or are there better places to look?

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Just now, redimp said:

Was looking at those, starting 5.5 grand on ebay. Same as UMP. Or are there better places to look?

Forums are probably the best place these days. The F35 has both pros and cons vs the UMP, but most F35s you see for sale will come with everything you need to shoot, whereas you'd still have to rig up your UMP. 

In terms of a 1080p s35 camera that shoots 4:4:4 at 10 or 12 bits with good DR and a nice motion cadence, the F3, F35, and Kinemini (without 4K upgrade) are the only real options I can think of. 

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1 hour ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Forums are probably the best place these days. The F35 has both pros and cons vs the UMP, but most F35s you see for sale will come with everything you need to shoot, whereas you'd still have to rig up your UMP. 

In terms of a 1080p s35 camera that shoots 4:4:4 at 10 or 12 bits with good DR and a nice motion cadence, the F3, F35, and Kinemini (without 4K upgrade) are the only real options I can think of. 

It seems you are right, googling does not help either.  I guess we will have to look at 10 bit prores 422 then. Anything comes to mind?

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You can get the Monstrous URSA MAJOR for like $1500...  

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=blackmagic ursa&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

It does everything you want but low light and you can do the SSD hack to it. 

This is a good review from about 6 months ago (most others are years old)

You can get what you want you just have to pay the price. with more $$$ or more effort or more of both.

My General Feeling about BM Cameras is they are not easy to capture the files..  but once you get get those buttery files in post... pure joy.

 

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3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

If you have a decent grip plus lighting crew, then it hardly is any worse than shooting with an original RED One! :-P 

I think Valhalla Rising was shot on a Red One... I liked it 

 

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