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lucabutera

Samsung NX Speed Booster

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@lucabutera

Thank you for answering! Unfortunately I can only help by 1. Buying the adapter when completed and 2. After buying, doing some tests with many "rare" EF lenses when used with the NX1.

It's a crazy world...Innovative, enthusiastic and technically talented people like you outrange world wide acting global companies...Creative spirit, innovation and enthusiasm wishing the floor with the "fat cats" of the digital imaging industry...You made my day... ;-)

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1 hour ago, lucabutera said:

Hello Arikhan,

before responding to your questions I want to express my respect for you, because you have hit the center of the problem of costs.

you can not expect to build a few pieces and have a lower cost than a Chinese production of tens of thousands of pieces.
Initiate a prototyping for small quantities in Italy is very expensive, we must consider that the costs are high, here I agree with @Marco Tecno about the 10k offered by ttbek can amortize the initial prototyping costs.

To answer your questions:

- Yes, I'm sure because I'm already working on smart adapter. I have devised various adapters, all AF and IS but with different characteristics;

- For the prototype I employ approximately 2 months;

- Yes, they can be updated via USB.

Of course I totally agree with you. A company like metabones can not only "capitalize" on its past experience, but also on the low cost of manufacturing in their country and the existing (or potential) users base for their products.

But, again, the 10k should more or less fill this gap and set you in a competitive position (hence the price figures I gave), especially considering that you are talented and are (this is very crucial) a NX fan. Let's face it: I think that nobody else could start such a project, since you would ever earn from it :)

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When I started to think about building a smart autofocus adapter, I asked you if you preferred the Techart Pro adapter or Aputure Dec AF.
Almost all of you have responded Techart Pro, and in fact, to have an autofocus system that works with all lenses that's cool!
So I started to think what could be a fast way to have it in the real world and not in the world of dreams ..
The 30mm f2 pancake is long 21.5mm (half a millimeter longer of adapter Nikon/NX), it has no buttons OIS, Zoom or another, it's just a fixed lens which has two functions:

1) Autofocus
2) Iris.

These characteristics make it the perfect candidate to become an AF adapter.

First I ceck the range of focus, it is 6mm (Techart Pro it's only 4,5mm).

SAM_9142.JPG

 

After I disassembled the rear flange, I raised the board and looked inside, the electric motor is positioned laterally and all the gears rotate the rear part of the ferrule, the main gear is located in the rear part of the lens, and this is good, why not cluttered and provides more space for mounting the front lens.

SAM_2074.JPG


Inside there is the motor for the opening of the iris and is parallel to the support cylinder for glasses.
In general, having taken the measurements, I can state that it is possible to convert the lens in a 30mm AF adapter.

if there is enough space, you can install the pin Canon EF mount on the front of the commands to activate Stabilizer and Aperture Iris with micro Arduino.

SAM_2076.JPG

Up to here I made simple but to obtain an AF adapter is necessary to construct a new outer ring of aluminum with two or three linear bearings to support the weight of the new lenses, build a new internal support in aluminum with front flange of the lens assembly and perhaps replace some plastic with new gears in aluminum gear.
The width of engagement Nikon is ok, but the width of the Canon is greater, then I have to redesign the whole body.

Such a change could cost about 400 euro, this could be a bargain for those with a 30mm, but considering the prices soared Samsung lenses may exceed 650 euro for a complete adapter.

Having a third-party adapter with AF lenses is possible.
This is only one of the possibilities, I have other ideas and solutions to build AF adapter.
I wrote this post to know from you what you think.

 

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8 hours ago, lucabutera said:

When I started to think about building a smart autofocus adapter, I asked you if you preferred the Techart Pro adapter or Aputure Dec AF.
Almost all of you have responded Techart Pro, and in fact, to have an autofocus system that works with all lenses that's cool!
So I started to think what could be a fast way to have it in the real world and not in the world of dreams ..
The 30mm f2 pancake is long 21.5mm (half a millimeter longer of adapter Nikon/NX), it has no buttons OIS, Zoom or another, it's just a fixed lens which has two functions:

1) Autofocus
2) Iris.

These characteristics make it the perfect candidate to become an AF adapter.

First I ceck the range of focus, it is 6mm (Techart Pro it's only 4,5mm).

 

After I disassembled the rear flange, I raised the board and looked inside, the electric motor is positioned laterally and all the gears rotate the rear part of the ferrule, the main gear is located in the rear part of the lens, and this is good, why not cluttered and provides more space for mounting the front lens.


Inside there is the motor for the opening of the iris and is parallel to the support cylinder for glasses.
In general, having taken the measurements, I can state that it is possible to convert the lens in a 30mm AF adapter.

if there is enough space, you can install the pin Canon EF mount on the front of the commands to activate Stabilizer and Aperture Iris with micro Arduino.

Up to here I made simple but to obtain an AF adapter is necessary to construct a new outer ring of aluminum with two or three linear bearings to support the weight of the new lenses, build a new internal support in aluminum with front flange of the lens assembly and perhaps replace some plastic with new gears in aluminum gear.
The width of engagement Nikon is ok, but the width of the Canon is greater, then I have to redesign the whole body.

Such a change could cost about 400 euro, this could be a bargain for those with a 30mm, but considering the prices soared Samsung lenses may exceed 650 euro for a complete adapter.

Having a third-party adapter with AF lenses is possible.
This is only one of the possibilities, I have other ideas and solutions to build AF adapter.
I wrote this post to know from you what you think.

 

Is there no one who can help you do custom PCB design?? 
There are plenty of websites were you can order cheap custom PCB you designed yourself. 

I can only do very basic PCB designs, but there must be someone here who can do more complicated stuff, or even fund someone to do it for you that would be a possibility. 

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@lucabutera

As this adapter is NOT a mass product, it's completely clear, that it will be much more expensive than (feature wise) comparable mass products. Personally I still believe, 650 EURO should be the maximum of pricing, beyond that it will be quite hard to get it sold - even for NX enthusiasts. But this is only a personal point of view and feeling.
You should consider, that this talk is only theory till this moment, because the price also depends on:

  • how fast and accurate does AF work in stills with your adapter (comparable with Samsung native lenses)
  • how fast and accurate does AF work in video with your adapter (comparable with Samsung native lenses)

A good level of comparison is - in my eyes - the Metabones EF to E-Mount adapter (Metabones) or the MC-11, that works really well in Video-AF with Sigma lenses.

You should also consider, the Samsung 16-50mm f2-2.8 OIS (can be bought at about 1.000 Euros these days) and the Samsung 50-150mm f2.8 ED OIS (can be bought at about 1.300 EURO these days) are very good video lenses with fast and accurate AF and OIS and cover the demands of almost all NX owners, who need AF. Most serious / ambitionned / enthusiastic NX filmers own the Samsung 16-50mm f2-2.8 OIS, so an adapter costing over 650,- Euro will probably be too overpriced for a majority of NX-users, so most of them will prefer to manually focus with an affordable EF to NX adapter....Always consider, the NX1 / NX500 are "dead cams" at the moment, so most possible customers will balance reasons to buy or not to buy such an expensive adapter for the dead NX system...

I know, this is the crucial dilemma of every possible manunfacturer of such an adapter: Will they get enough customers to buy such a device in regard to the fact, that this adapter will probably never be a mass product for price X?

As I told you, I will buy the adapter even for 600 EURO, probably also for about 650 Euro. If I would pay more than that, depends on the points I mentionned above...(AF speed and accuracy compared to another camera/adapter systems like Sony EF to E Metabones Mark IV adapter...)...probably not. 650 Euro would be a production price (R&D, testing, buying and assembling parts) hard to achieve from a manufacturer's POV, but it's a bunch of money for every potential customer - considering that Samsung retired from digital camera business...

Another fact to be considered is, the GH5 is released - a modern device with a bunch of lens options and manufacturer support for the next years. So...I believe (my personal believe) many former NX users will probably sell their gear and move to Panasonic or wait for an A7R III / A9 / A7S III...Technology moves on and there is a "point of no return" for almost every NX enthusiast...Just my 2 cents...

For sure, there will still be many NX enthusiasts out there, but the question (from YOUR POV) is: How many, and how much money will they spend on such an adapter?

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Yes, you can clone the motherboard, but this requires the construction of many units and would also make it also necessary to build the electric motor and the gear housing.

The original motherboard is a single hardware component, consisting of table, engine, gearbox and sensors that operate the MF when turning the focus ring.

SAM_2077.JPG

This adapter would be very fast to found the focus, as the original Samsung lens because the camera would work with a 100% Samsung hardware.

The good news is that the conversion would be reversible, the original parts would remain operational if reassembled like the original lens.

This becomes a better investment, because it does not sacrifice the original samsung lens.

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@lucabutera

Quote

This adapter would be very fast to found the focus, as the original Samsung lens because the camera would work with a 100% Samsung hardware.

As I understand, the AF skills of your adapter base on the AF skills of the native 30mm F2 Samsung lens + communication unit between EF lens and adapter. One question (because I don't own or have tested yet this 30mm lens): As we all know the NX system has best AF with the two S-lenses. I can confirm this, because eg the standard kit lens (18-55mm OIS) doesn't deliver such good AF as the S 16-50 F2.0-2.8. So what about AF speed and accuracy of the 30mm F2.0 lens?

How do you plan adding EF-IS to the adapter?

Quote

The good news is that the conversion would be reversible, the original parts would remain operational if reassembled like the original lens.

I doubt that a normal Joe could reassemble the original lens without damaging functionality of the adapter/original lens. Therefore one probably needs some skills in optoelectronics ("electronic fingers") though...Or did I misunderstood something?

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40 minutes ago, Arikhan said:

@lucabutera

As I understand, the AF skills of your adapter base on the AF skills of the native 30mm F2 Samsung lens + communication unit between EF lens and adapter. One question (because I don't own or have tested yet this 30mm lens): As we all know the NX system has best AF with the two S-lenses. I can confirm this, because eg the standard kit lens (18-55mm OIS) doesn't deliver such good AF as the S 16-50 F2.0-2.8. So what about AF speed and accuracy of the 30mm F2.0 lens?

How do you plan adding EF-IS to the adapter?

I doubt that a normal Joe could reassemble the original lens without damaging functionality of the adapter/original lens. Therefore one probably needs some skills in optoelectronics ("electronic fingers") though...Or did I misunderstood something?

If you want AF S lenses, you must use S lenses, please do not insist on this point. The adapter has an independent motor so if you want to see its performance, inform you about the features of the Samsung 30mm f2 lens.

The Canon Stabilizer works with power of Pin, I can connect a micro Arduino to control the iris.

I think there is deep enough to mount Canon EF lenses, the gearbox is 9mm thick, this is close to the Canon pin and could be an obstacle but I am optimistic.

It is not very difficult to disassemble and replace the lens with an instruction manual, but it is possible to commission the work to any repairer of electronic equipment.

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While I recognize this being a tramendous and awesome work of creativity and technical skill, that's too far from what I'd want/need. As already said, my ideal item would be a metabones "clone" for NX. No more, no less. Besides, this product would rely on the slowest AF lens for NX (in my personal experience) and require additional external hw to operate aperture and OIS, which in my personal book is a no-go (again, for my personal needs).

Last but not least, the total cost to have a fully working item (I mean with AF, aperture and OIS) would be much greater than buying a Nikon D5500. Possibly even greater than a Nikon 7200, and the added bulk to NX1 would make it match the size/weight of these DSLR cameras.

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22 minutes ago, Marco Tecno said:

While I recognize this being a tramendous and awesome work of creativity and technical skill, that's too far from what I'd want/need. As already said, my ideal item would be a metabones "clone" for NX. No more, no less. Besides, this product would rely on the slowest AF lens for NX (in my personal experience) and require additional external hw to operate aperture and OIS, which in my personal book is a no-go (again, for my personal needs).

Last but not least, the total cost to have a fully working item (I mean with AF, aperture and OIS) would be much greater than buying a Nikon D5500. Possibly even greater than a Nikon 7200, and the added bulk to NX1 would make it match the size/weight of these DSLR cameras.

I'm tired of hearing about how Metabones Holy Grail adapter. I've had it with Sony A7s, I sold both for continuous camera crash, slow autofocus and always not accurate autofocus.

These are the technical problems of Metabones listed on the official website:

"Limitations:

Autofocus

Continuous AF and video AF are not supported. (Performance may be unsatisfactory.)

AF may not work if the maximum aperture of the lens plus any EF Extender or other teleconverter attached is smaller than f/8.

The first two autofocus attempts are used to calibrate the lens and as a result may not lock successfully on the target. Half-press the shutter release button again and autofocus will lock successfully.

Autofocus may have difficultly locking onto subjects which are very close to the nearest focusing distance of the lens.

Autofocus accuracy depends heavily on the design and working condition of the lens. Lenses with hidden problems which may not be apparent on Canon DSLRs will lead to inaccurate and unreliable autofocus on Sony NEX. Typical problems of this kind that we have seen include an unsmooth/erratic autofocus mechanism (e.g. getting stuck intermittently at a certain focusing distance), a faulty/worn-out distance encoder or other faulty/worn-out internal sensors.

Other

No support for lens corrections such as peripheral shading, CA and distortion.

The EF-mount lens may make audible noises during iris changes and autofocus, wich may be picked up by the built-in microphone of the camera during video recording. Use of an external microphone is advised.

Early Tamron VC lenses such as the AF 28-300/3.5-6.3 XR Di VC LD Aspherical [IF] Macro (model A20), AF 18-270/3.5-6.3 Di II VC LD Aspherical [IF] MACRO (model B003), SP AF 17-50mm F/2.8 XR Di II VC LD Aspherical [IF] (model B005) may not be able to freely switch between OIS and IBIS because they may not report IS activity status. Later Tamron VC lenses equipped with USD or PZD focus motors are fine.

Some aftermarket battery grips may cause the aperture to change erraneously. This is a bug of the aftermarket battery grip but NOT arising from the Metabones Smart Adapter. Turn off the aftermarket battery grip or use a genuine Sony battery grip."

The adapter I have in mind, it works perfectly with all lenses, regardless of the protocol used.
It turns every lens in a lens autofocus, including Samyang lenses, Cine, M42, Nikon and over all in autofocus lenses.

It works perfectly even in video mode, where Metabones can not do!
Besides the AF it IS Canon Stabilizer (OIS it's Samsung) and Aperture Control.

Finally the lens donor is not cannibalized but remains convertible to return to Samsung original state.

I paid 100 euro a 30mm f.2 now costs more than 300 EUR!

If you think that spending 400/500 euro for an adapter kit like this is too much, I think you did not know the counts.

Make an order of 1,000 pieces and I can build it for half the price.

You can also buy Nikon camera EUR 500, but if it mounts a lens of 100 EUR you have not solved anything!

 

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Well, if I want the adapter, that's for using lenses like these ones:

Tamron SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3
SIGMA EX 100-300MM F4
SIGMA EX 120-400MM OS F/4.5-5.6

So if no metabones alike adapter comes for NX, I'll eventually buy a canon/nikon/sony body (under 5/600€) and one of these lenses.

 

That said, I tested the metabones (for still shooting, that's the use I need most and for sure I'd need with those lenses) and I was really impressed. It was at least as fast as a 6D, but I'd say faster. And this was on an old A6000.

For the price, again (and for the last time): I'm not saying that 400/500 is too much for the adapter. I'm saying that if it costs more than that, to me it's more clever to buy a second body, especially when the adapter does not fit my needs and adds a lot of bulk and difficulty of use to the camera (slow AF, external aperture control, external power source...).

 

I hope you understand my points, I'm really a fan of your efforts and I'll eagerly follow them as a spectator.

 

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1 hour ago, Marco Tecno said:

Well, if I want the adapter, that's for using lenses like these ones:

Tamron SP 150-600mm F/5-6.3
SIGMA EX 100-300MM F4
SIGMA EX 120-400MM OS F/4.5-5.6

So if no metabones alike adapter comes for NX, I'll eventually buy a canon/nikon/sony body (under 5/600€) and one of these lenses.

 

That said, I tested the metabones (for still shooting, that's the use I need most and for sure I'd need with those lenses) and I was really impressed. It was at least as fast as a 6D, but I'd say faster. And this was on an old A6000.

For the price, again (and for the last time): I'm not saying that 400/500 is too much for the adapter. I'm saying that if it costs more than that, to me it's more clever to buy a second body, especially when the adapter does not fit my needs and adds a lot of bulk and difficulty of use to the camera (slow AF, external aperture control, external power source...).

 

I hope you understand my points, I'm really a fan of your efforts and I'll eagerly follow them as a spectator.

 

Tamron SP 150-600 Only manual focus above 450mm with Metabones.

Sigma EX 100-300 and 120-400mm it's no tested to fast phase focus.

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Also serious problems with GH5 Metabones, the Autofocus do not work!

http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/02/01/panasonic-gh5-with-metabones-speedbooster-xl-0-64x-tested-at-cvp-feat-kaiman-wong/

But this is not the place to criticize the Metabones.
They are the largest factory of adapters and this shows that the construction of smart adapter is very difficult.

What I suggest is to appreciate work that I do for Samsung small communities, without having ridiculous claims or make critical annoying and not useful.

Having everything is not possible, you can have good things but you have to pay.

If you are not satisfied you can no longer follow this Topic.

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Well, I'm surprised for your words, to say the least. I'm using nx since 2011. I have several nx bodies, almost all nx lenses. I really like nx, more than canon, Nikon, sony and even pentax.

 

Having different ideas is not bad, unless you are a dictator. And this is a free place. If my posts annoy you, you can ignore them.

I think the idea you have for this adapter doesn't fit MY NEEDS. It could work for others. I can well underline the weaknesses of a project, as well as the good parts.

 

I guess that ttbak has similar needs as mine, we'll see what he thinks about your idea.

Could you tell me one positive side of your approach, compared to a d5500+one of those lenses? I see only negative sides, apart for the technical "game".

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I read somewhere that the NX mount is based on K-mount since Samsung used to partner with Pentax and a lot of their earlier cameras were cheaper Pentax knock offs down to the sensor.

Samsung apparently had a prototype of the K-mount that supposedly had Autofocus etc here is a picture of it.
1_k-adapter.JPG52677d1264595460-k-mount-adapter-picture

 

Is it not easier to adapt the Pentax K-mount to the NX with autofocus?? I know majority wants Canon but lets face it, autofocus might not be the greatest on it if any at all.
and at the end of the day Pentax is still in the business making cameras and lenses, Samsung is not.

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@lucabutera

You say:

 

Quote

The adapter I have in mind, it works perfectly with all lenses, regardless of the protocol used.
It turns every lens in a lens autofocus
, including Samyang lenses, Cine, M42, Nikon and over all in autofocus lenses.

This sounds really exciting...Remarkable capabilities, because there is NOT something comparable on the market. Two questions on this claim:

  • Does this mean, if you touch your NX display for getting focus during video/still shooting (="touch focus" feature of the NX system), even a Samyang lens would be able to auto focus on the point you touched to?
  • Will your adapter have an EF mount to adapt lenses or some other mount?

When reading your statement above, I believe (when assuming that the adapter would have all the capabilities you described in this forum) this will be one of the most exciting/revolutionary adapters on the market, tranforming the NX1 in an "universal AF-lens camera". This would be for sure an unique feature from AF point of view...

Unfortunately we all have to wait ( as you say, about 2 months) for the completion of the project. I am very curious about AF speed and accuracy of your EF-2-NX-AF-adapter, when used with different EF lenses...Keep on your good work and innovative spirit...(But try to not react that irritated, when people ask different questions or reveal their thoughts...They want simply to evaluate and discuss as many aspects as possible...)

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1 hour ago, Arikhan said:

@lucabutera

You say:

 

This sounds really exciting...Remarkable capabilities, because there is NOT something comparable on the market. Two questions on this claim:

  • Does this mean, if you touch your NX display for getting focus during video/still shooting (="touch focus" feature of the NX system), even a Samyang lens would be able to auto focus on the point you touched to?
  • Will your adapter have an EF mount to adapt lenses or some other mount?

When reading your statement above, I believe (when assuming that the adapter would have all the capabilities you described in this forum) this will be one of the most exciting/revolutionary adapters on the market, tranforming the NX1 in an "universal AF-lens camera". This would be for sure an unique feature from AF point of view...

Unfortunately we all have to wait ( as you say, about 2 months) for the completion of the project. I am very curious about AF speed and accuracy of your EF-2-NX-AF-adapter, when used with different EF lenses...Keep on your good work and innovative spirit...(But try to not react that irritated, when people ask different questions or reveal their thoughts...They want simply to evaluate and discuss as many aspects as possible...)

Hello Arikhan,

There is a similar adapter on the market, is the Techart Pro, and when I asked what kind of adapter did have rated this.

However, even the Techart Pro has a motherboard that interprets the Sony commands and this could cause problems or slowdowns.
The Samsung adapter instead working on an original motherboard, the camera will believe more and work on a Sasmung lens, and in fact, it is so.
All focusing functions remain original, tracking, one touch, etc ..
I tested the 30mm lens VS S 16-50 lens, the difference in speed is very low and rarely wrong.
it is as if possessed a built-in camera autofocus system.

I like constructive dialogue, talk ttbek, OttoK, Kinoseed is always a pleasure, the differences in points of view is a good thing, it helps to improve, but I can not stand when someone just likes talking nonsense, give direction (as dictator) of as it should be, the size, the color, the weight, the power supply, the functions, as it would want to pay for it.
These useless and boring speeches by jerks, do not help me, they are like a fly that runs near ear, if you do not like my idea or not you like my work you can look elsewhere, which is why I recommended to change topic.

Soon I will publish a video of speed comparison of focus between 30mm F.2 and 16-50 S.

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8 hours ago, SMGJohn said:

I read somewhere that the NX mount is based on K-mount since Samsung used to partner with Pentax and a lot of their earlier cameras were cheaper Pentax knock offs down to the sensor.

Samsung apparently had a prototype of the K-mount that supposedly had Autofocus etc here is a picture of it.
1_k-adapter.JPG52677d1264595460-k-mount-adapter-picture

 

Is it not easier to adapt the Pentax K-mount to the NX with autofocus?? I know majority wants Canon but lets face it, autofocus might not be the greatest on it if any at all.
and at the end of the day Pentax is still in the business making cameras and lenses, Samsung is not.

I think this is just a concept.

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Lucabutera I like your idea and I have a nx 30mm please continue your experiments its wild to think that we may be able to use for example a old Jupiter lens, Nikon Manual lens etc. and have touch auto-focus?!!   

If the 30mm works as a host lens perhaps any pancake NX would work (16mm 20mm)

If you figure this out for us this may be your million dollar Idea... You would just have to hunt through all camera makers for a host lens and create an adapter universal autofocus adapter for.. Sony, Canon, Panasonic etc...

Be not discouraged 

Your our only hope!   

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