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On 2/9/2017 at 4:39 PM, lucabutera said:

Hello ttbek, how are you?

You must keep up to date, if you come on the forum every month you will always find new surprises.

The next series will predisposition of electrical contacts.

I will make a version NXL mute and a version with electronic controls.

Currently, for practical reasons, it is being tested, the Aputure Dec control that allows:

1) iris control Canon lenses;
2) Stabilizer Canon lenses;
3) WiFi Control focus;
4) recording 2 subjects for quick changes of focus.

Currently I started the study of a smart autofocus system, but this will take a little time.

How can you help me? Been programming?

I have been working with a digital logic analyzer and an Arduino nano.  Via this setup I can set the aperture and move the focus to min and max so far.  So the setup is

For gathering data: Canon Camera + EF extension tube with AF contacts + lens, I have wired the extension tube to sample the data via a USB digital logic anlyzer. 
For testing my control: Arduino Nano + EF extension tube with AF contacts + lens (no body for now).  So the aperture and focus max and min are working as controlled by the nano. 

Next step: NX camera + NX extension tube with AF contacts + Arduino Nano  and use the digital logic analyzer to find the focus commands from the camera, also spoof the lens data.  Here is where ihkim's work will be a big help with the lens initialisation, to hopefully successfully spoof the lens in a way the camera accepts. 

Final case: NX camera signal to contacts on close end EF -> NX adapter, these wired to the nano, then from the nano to the contacts on the other side of the adapter, then to the lens.  Then replace the adapter with wired NX-L for focal reduction. 

Stabilization seems to work automatically for the lenses I've tried, but I think the EF-M mount lenses don't have physical switches, but these are not among the lenses we're adapting. 

On 2/9/2017 at 4:39 PM, lucabutera said:

You want to finance my project? Or both?

My 10k offer still stands for anyone that can provide native-like camera driven AF.  The Apurture DEC does not do this, as I understand it doesn't listen to the camera half at all, in which case I'm only a few buttons away from doing the same with the nano (add button to repeat change focus command one way, another the other way, same for aperture).  Wifi would be a bunch of work though, but while nice it isn't on my own wish list.  The nano will allow more programmatic control, 2,3,4, etc... focus locations could be toggled, it's mostly a matter of adding physical inputs and writing logic into the nano code to handle them.  As I look back to your image of the upcoming system, the contacts are going to go just from the Apurture to the lens, I also need to get to the camera contacts somehow.  What I need is camera -> Apurture and Apurture -> lens (but with my nano instead of the Apurture).  With the current NX-L design I'm not sure how to get at the camera contacts, running wires even with a hole drilled through isn't great because of the rotating design, so they can be stressed or break if it rotates too far.  Solutions that come to mind would complicate the design quite a bit further (e.g. concentric rings for each contact on that part that rotates). 

On 2/9/2017 at 4:39 PM, lucabutera said:

P.S. If you ship me the NXL I can update it for telephoto compatibility.

That would be great, can you PM me the address, I didn't keep the packaging they arrived in so I lost the return address. 

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On 2/9/2017 at 10:37 PM, IKSLIM said:

In order to support Luca's development, i'd be happy to purchase NXL.v1 from ttbek. Please PM me if you find my attempt attractive. Thanks.

Hey IKSLIM, had I needed to buy a new one for this update I probably would have sold you one, but Luca's kind offer is keeping both with me for now.  Upon closer inspection the  Apurture design version doesn't have the contacts I need camera side, so unfortunately you're out of luck unless I end up acquiring a 3rd one. 

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24 minutes ago, ttbek said:

I have been working with a digital logic analyzer and an Arduino nano.  Via this setup I can set the aperture and move the focus to min and max so far.  So the setup is

For gathering data: Canon Camera + EF extension tube with AF contacts + lens, I have wired the extension tube to sample the data via a USB digital logic anlyzer. 
For testing my control: Arduino Nano + EF extension tube with AF contacts + lens (no body for now).  So the aperture and focus max and min are working as controlled by the nano. 

Next step: NX camera + NX extension tube with AF contacts + Arduino Nano  and use the digital logic analyzer to find the focus commands from the camera, also spoof the lens data.  Here is where ihkim's work will be a big help with the lens initialisation, to hopefully successfully spoof the lens in a way the camera accepts. 

Final case: NX camera signal to contacts on close end EF -> NX adapter, these wired to the nano, then from the nano to the contacts on the other side of the adapter, then to the lens.  Then replace the adapter with wired NX-L for focal reduction. 

Stabilization seems to work automatically for the lenses I've tried, but I think the EF-M mount lenses don't have physical switches, but these are not among the lenses we're adapting. 

My 10k offer still stands for anyone that can provide native-like camera driven AF.  The Apurture DEC does not do this, as I understand it doesn't listen to the camera half at all, in which case I'm only a few buttons away from doing the same with the nano (add button to repeat change focus command one way, another the other way, same for aperture).  Wifi would be a bunch of work though, but while nice it isn't on my own wish list.  The nano will allow more programmatic control, 2,3,4, etc... focus locations could be toggled, it's mostly a matter of adding physical inputs and writing logic into the nano code to handle them.  As I look back to your image of the upcoming system, the contacts are going to go just from the Apurture to the lens, I also need to get to the camera contacts somehow.  What I need is camera -> Apurture and Apurture -> lens (but with my nano instead of the Apurture).  With the current NX-L design I'm not sure how to get at the camera contacts, running wires even with a hole drilled through isn't great because of the rotating design, so they can be stressed or break if it rotates too far.  Solutions that come to mind would complicate the design quite a bit further (e.g. concentric rings for each contact on that part that rotates). 

That would be great, can you PM me the address, I didn't keep the packaging they arrived in so I lost the return address. 

I agree about the Aputure solution. As I wrote in older posts, this solution does not solve my issues as well. What I'd need is a real AF (autofocus) for Canon lenses, so that I can use it for the longer tele lenses (missing for NX). Any other solution will be, for me, useless.

 

I'm still confident that Luca can do the "real thing", sooner or later i.e.: an adapter converting the samsung protocol to Canon, and drive Canon lenses as if they were native NX ones. I'm only "afraid" that the required time and cost for this item are too high (making it more convenient to buy a "cheap" canikon body to use just for those lenses). I hope that the (very kind) 10k offer from ttbek could make the price more convenient for future buyers of the intelligent adapter if/when it comes.

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On 12/2/2017 at 3:31 PM, ttbek said:

Ho lavorato con un analizzatore logico digitale e un nano Arduino. Via questa configurazione è possibile impostare l'apertura e spostare il focus di minimo e massimo finora. Così l'installazione è

Per la raccolta dei dati: Canon Camera + tubo di prolunga EF con AF contatti + obiettivo, ho cablato il tubo di prolunga per campionare i dati tramite un anlyzer logica digitale USB. 
Per testare il mio controllo: tubo di prolunga Arduino Nano + EF con AF contatti + obiettivo (nessun corpo per ora). Così l'apertura e concentrarsi max e min funzionano come controllato dal nano. 

Il passo successivo: NX fotocamera + tubo di prolunga NX con contatti AF + Arduino Nano e utilizzare l'analizzatore di logica digitale per trovare i comandi di messa a fuoco dalla fotocamera, falsificare i dati sull'obiettivo. Qui è dove il lavoro di ihkim sarà di grande aiuto con l'inizializzazione lente, di falsificare si spera con successo l'obiettivo in un modo in cui la telecamera accetta. 

caso finale: NX segnale della telecamera dei contatti close fine EF -> adattatore NX, questi collegato al nano, poi dal nano ai contatti sul lato dell'adattatore, poi alla lente. Quindi sostituire l'adattatore con cavo NX-L per la riduzione focale. 

Stabilizzazione sembra funzionare automaticamente per le lenti che ho provato, ma penso che le lenti EF-M di montaggio non hanno switch fisici, ma questi non sono tra le lenti stiamo adattando. 

La mia offerta 10k si ferma per tutti coloro che possono fornire fotocamera nativa simile guidato AF. Il Apurture dicembre non fa questo, a quanto mi risulta non ascolta alla metà fotocamera a tutti, in questo caso io sono solo alcuni pulsanti di distanza dal fare lo stesso con il nano (tasto aggiungi a ripetere il cambiamento di comando di messa a fuoco uno modo, un altro dall'altra parte, lo stesso per l'apertura). Wifi sarebbe un po 'di lavoro, però, ma pur bello non è sulla mia lista dei desideri. Il nano consentirà un maggiore controllo programmatico, 2,3,4, ecc ... posizione del fuoco potrebbero essere attivati, è soprattutto una questione di aggiungere ingressi fisici e scrivere la logica nel codice nano per gestirli. Quando guardo indietro alla vostra immagine del sistema cui è decisivo, i contatti stanno per andare solo dal Apurture alla lente, ho anche bisogno di raggiungere i contatti della fotocamera in qualche modo. Ho bisogno di fotocamera -> Apurture e Apurture -> lenti (ma con il mio nano al posto del Apurture). Con l'attuale disegno NX-L non sono sicuro di come ottenere i contatti della fotocamera, in esecuzione fili anche con un foro attraverso non è grande a causa del disegno di rotazione, in modo che può essere sollecitata o rompersi se ruota troppo lontano . Le soluzioni che vengono in mente complicherebbe la progettazione di un po 'più lontano (ad esempio anelli concentrici per ogni contatto su quella parte che ruota). 

Sarebbe fantastico, si può PM me l'indirizzo, non ho conservare l'imballaggio sono arrivati in così ho perso l'indirizzo di ritorno. 

Hello ttbek,

given that, Aputure Dec is not a fallback of Metabones, is a different adapter that will appeal to filmmakers, I do not know filmmakers who shoot with autofocus and if it is used with Steadicam or crane is superior because it gives you the ability to remotely control the lens directly from the handle.

If you need the electronic contacts to transfer data between the camera and the lens I can do it. I have already designed this.

I appreciate the work you're doing, I hope it may be useful to get a smart adapter.

As for your offer of 10k, it's always too vague, I can build a "real autofocus system" but I believe that you are using money as the jockey uses the carrot with the horse, although he gallops the carrot is always one step forth from his face ..

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On 22/1/2017 at 9:49 PM, lucabutera said:

 

 

Luca, please don't underestimate what ttback says. He's the guy who offered a new nx500 to vasile as a burner camera, with no return from this. He's a real nx fan. If he offers 10k, he'll honor this, I'm 100% sure.

 

Rather, he should exactly define the 'goal' for those 10k. If I had to be the 'judge', I'd say that a working af adapter has to:

1) work with no external processing hw attached (eg Arduino or else)

2) has to be in the shape/size/weight of the metabones

3) has to use the internal af algorithms of nx1

4) has to be as fast as the original combo of canon+lens for af

5) has to control aperture with nx1 commands

6) has to enable ois if the lens has it

7) has to work with most (all) canon compatible lenses

8) has to use autonomous power (taking it from nx1 or providing it with batteries inside the adapter)

 

That's my list, you could have different ideas (I'm especially curious about what ttbek thinks of this).

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47 minutes ago, Marco Tecno said:

 

Luca, please don't underestimate what ttback says. He's the guy who offered a new nx500 to vasile as a burner camera, with no return from this. He's a real nx fan. If he offers 10k, he'll honor this, I'm 100% sure.

 

Rather, he should exactly define the 'goal' for those 10k. If I had to be the 'judge', I'd say that a working af adapter has to:

1) work with no external processing hw attached (eg Arduino or else)

2) has to be in the shape/size/weight of the metabones

3) has to use the internal af algorithms of nx1

4) has to be as fast as the original combo of canon+lens for af

5) has to control aperture with nx1 commands

6) has to enable ois if the lens has it

7) has to work with most (all) canon compatible lenses

8) has to use autonomous power (taking it from nx1 or providing it with batteries inside the adapter)

 

That's my list, you could have different ideas (I'm especially curious about what ttbek thinks of this).

Also I'm a big fan of NX cameras, otherwise I would have never created the NXL...
I have not taken lightly the offer of @ttbek, but I did not understand if his offer of 10k is an award given to those who first build it, or if this offer is a non-repayable funding to support engineering costs and design.

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I rather have true camera to lens connection than having to remote control this, its pretty safe to say that a good majority of us actually uses the autofocus in video quite a lot, because its superb and hits the target more often than not. 

If this was translated to a Canon mount, imao it be gold worth, its too much work going around with a steady cam and a remote controller just to get focus all the time, good for big video production but not so much for us who just have the camera with nothing else, run and gun style.

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6 minutes ago, SMGJohn said:

I rather have true camera to lens connection than having to remote control this, its pretty safe to say that a good majority of us actually uses the autofocus in video quite a lot, because its superb and hits the target more often than not. 

If this was translated to a Canon mount, imao it be gold worth, its too much work going around with a steady cam and a remote controller just to get focus all the time, good for big video production but not so much for us who just have the camera with nothing else, run and gun style.

Helo John, But you do not preferred a similar adapter to Techart Pro?

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1 hour ago, lucabutera said:

Helo John, But you do not preferred a similar adapter to Techart Pro?

Not if it does not support modern lenses and I wont be able to get stabiliser, no point in having only autofocus and no stabilisation going on, but it if it does everything damn, hell yeah.

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To be honest guys, @lucabutera has done (hardware wise) the most any other have since the beggining of the system, even Metabones LIED, telling us that it is not possible, and then had to re-phrase talking about business models and the such.

@Marco Tecno, your list is quite big! Even though I agree with most of your list, I am not anxious to see something same size as the Metabones (why? it can be bigger, if it does the job). Have you seen the piezo electric thingy for Canon lenses? Even Canon had to build a whole box under the lens, to accommodate their pz adaptor, why not Luca, just one person on a mission? I mean, everything is general and we have to support Luca, and eventually he is going there, the guy has some serious engineering skills!

@ttbek is a great NX user, no question about it, but where money are involved, there is always opportunity for misunderstandings, it would be wise to just declare what he wants to see for his 10.000 (or 5 or 2 or 1 or whatever), so people understand and maybe try to that direction.

TechartPro is an interesting concept, but it is something different than an active EF(-S) adapter. You did the speedbooster, that works, and people using it right now, now it is better for an active EF adapter, with AF, OIS and aperture control, and then, why not, a legacy lenses AF adapter, I have more than a couple of dozen lenses I could use.

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I totally agree, Kisaha, I didn't mean to undercut Luca's awesome work. He is actually a great fan and supporter of NX system and with his speedbooster he gave new life to NX1 for those not needing AF. It's actually because I trust his work, that I made that "bulleted list". I'm sure he can accomplish most of those points.

The size, TO ME, is a big plus. I actually went mirrorless for the size in the first place. Now, if you tell me that the size of metabones is impossible to achieve, I could buy the adapter anyway, if it does all the rest, but it hasn't to be too big (the Canon that you mention is actually on the big side, IMO).

As to ttbek, I also think he should set some marks for his "reward", and the questions fired by Luca are very interesting. I mean...perhaps, with those funds Luca at his disposal NOW, he could do the real thing, while he couldn't do it without them.

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Sorry if this already been awnsered, but wich mount comes with the NXL? It says its compatible with a whole lot of mounts (and i need Nikon) but when trying to purchase it don't get to say with mount i need and its not written anywhere with wich mounts it comes with

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@Rodolfo Fernandes you can add whatever mount with a simple adapter (usually go from 5-25$ on ebay, the cheap ones works well so far with my legacy lenses), NX-L is EF adapter, so then you go  from EF to whatever you want.

I would advise for K&F concept adapters, a bit to the expensive side (while the cheap ones go to 5$, these can found around 15$) but the quality is extremely good.

What Nikon do you use? You know that the adapter is not active (can't change aperture if you do not have the physical ring on the lens).

@lucabutera You said that NX-L with active control will be 500euros? and the Aputure for NX is 99euros? What the 99euros option do right now (if it is available)? Thanks

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Sorry, not familiar with any of those lenses (unfortunately I own lenses from 5-7 different systems, but no Nikon at all). I am not sure if Nikon are fully closed (the aperture) when adapted, Canon are fully open (so you can do most things, as the 2.8f I use adapted are pretty fine wide open), there is also a trick with EF if you have a EF body, you can make them accept a specific f stop. 

Anyways, do your lenses have an aperture ring (can you choose the aperture from the lens, not the camera?)? If they do not, then someone has to tell you what is the case with the Nikon adapter lenses, so you are certain of your investment.

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3 hours ago, Marco Tecno said:

Rather, he should exactly define the 'goal' for those 10k. If I had to be the 'judge', I'd say that a working af adapter has to:

1) work with no external processing hw attached (eg Arduino or else)

2) has to be in the shape/size/weight of the metabones

3) has to use the internal af algorithms of nx1

4) has to be as fast as the original combo of canon+lens for af

5) has to control aperture with nx1 commands

6) has to enable ois if the lens has it

7) has to work with most (all) canon compatible lenses

8) has to use autonomous power (taking it from nx1 or providing it with batteries inside the adapter)

@Marco Tecno your request is highly demanding.
A smart adapter of this type is undoubtedly a lot of work, it is not easy to have full compatibility with camera and various lenses, but at this point I ask myself this:
How much would you be willing to pay for a compact adapter with fast AF and stabilizer?

I beg you to give a balanced and realistic response.

1 hour ago, Rodolfo Fernandes said:

Sorry if this already been awnsered, but wich mount comes with the NXL? It says its compatible with a whole lot of mounts (and i need Nikon) but when trying to purchase it don't get to say with mount i need and its not written anywhere with wich mounts it comes with

Hei Rodolfo, I use Kiwi LMA-NK (G) _EOS AP 209.
This cheap adapter is well built, it has aperture control.

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

@lucabutera You said that NX-L with active control will be 500euros? and the Aputure for NX is 99euros? What the 99euros option do right now (if it is available)? Thanks

@Kisaha The modification kit for Aputure DEC is priced at 99 Euros and Aputure DEC modified to NX camera costs 500, but this is not NXL speed booster.
Aputure Dec lens regaing, costs about 750 euro and I believe that the final version of NXL WIFI control will not have a lower cost.

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Luca, I was referring to the 10k "sponsorship". And the list is to be seen as something to aim to, for an optimal goal.

If ttbek is ready to send you 10k for developing an intelligent adapter, I think it should be a state-of-the-art adapter. At least in the intentions (then, if the design goals are impossible, you'll be able to restate those points, explaining which of those and why are not achievable).

As to the final cost, always keeping into account that the development costs would be pretty much covered by the 10k, and also considering that:

- the metabones EF to E costs 399$ and has pretty much everything I described, and it has to reward the development costs

- a nikon body basically able to do what I'd need from the adapter costs about 500$ and is a whole camera (D5500)

I'd be willing to pay among 350 and 500 for the adapter (I'm referring to an adapter with no optics inside). More than that, and I'd prefer a second camera body to devote to telephoto shooting.

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@lucabutera

Quote

How much would you be willing to pay for a compact adapter with fast AF and stabilizer?

Personally I would pay 550 EURO for an Canon-EF to NX adapter with fully working IS and AF. If you complete this project, I will buy this kind of adapter immediately - for 550 EURO +/-. I still have some questions:

  • Is it for sure, that you will begin to work on such an adapter in next time?
  • How long do you think, the completion of this project could take?
  • Do you plan an updatable adapter (eg per USB) for eventual firmware updates / adding features/ bug resolving?

Thank you for answering!

For myself I think that is a quite small market, so the prices for such an adapter can not compete with "mass markets", like some of the Metabones adapters - because Lucabuetra will (probably) never sell thousands of such devices And still, NX users should try to support active and intelligent small manufacturers putting a lot of effort in a successful work, giving filmers by far more options to work with the NX system. Up to 600 EURO, I don't think this is overpriced. 

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3 hours ago, Arikhan said:

@lucabutera

Personally I would pay 550 EURO for an Canon-EF to NX adapter with fully working IS and AF. If you complete this project, I will buy this kind of adapter immediately - for 550 EURO +/-. I still have some questions:

  • Is it for sure, that you will begin to work on such an adapter in next time?
  • How long do you think, the completion of this project could take?
  • Do you plan an updatable adapter (eg per USB) for eventual firmware updates / adding features/ bug resolving?

Thank you for answering!

For myself I think that is a quite small market, so the prices for such an adapter can not compete with "mass markets", like some of the Metabones adapters - because Lucabuetra will (probably) never sell thousands of such devices And still, NX users should try to support active and intelligent small manufacturers putting a lot of effort in a successful work, giving filmers by far more options to work with the NX system. Up to 600 EURO, I don't think this is overpriced. 

Hello Arikhan,

before responding to your questions I want to express my respect for you, because you have hit the center of the problem of costs.

you can not expect to build a few pieces and have a lower cost than a Chinese production of tens of thousands of pieces.
Initiate a prototyping for small quantities in Italy is very expensive, we must consider that the costs are high, here I agree with @Marco Tecno about the 10k offered by ttbek can amortize the initial prototyping costs.

To answer your questions:

- Yes, I'm sure because I'm already working on smart adapter. I have devised various adapters, all AF and IS but with different characteristics;

- For the prototype I employ approximately 2 months;

- Yes, they can be updated via USB.

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