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Canon 1DX II - Video Camera Perspective - Mini interview on the missing details


Guest Ebrahim Saadawi
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Thank you @Ebrahim Saadawi. This gets me excited. I hope Canon will surprise us with 4K HDMI output. I shoot weddings which are long (on average 3.5 hrs footage/camera for wedding & reception). I need to have lots of cards to record 500Mbps when decide to move to 4K. Cost is one factor but carrying and changing all those cards is just hard while wedding is going on.    

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55 minutes ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

1- Yes the external clean HDMI feed is always ON as fast as you switch to live-view mode regardless you're pressing rec or not. If you'll get this camera or the 1DC for that purpose make sure you choose the 4K mode in the video resolution menu. It'll be an APS-H crop but a fantastic image,  Said to exceed the C100/300 HD image quality. while the output feed in HD FF is identical to the mediocre internal HD. A Ninja 2/blade/VA on top/side of this is a very good idea especially to get that HD as well as all the other missing features like peaking/zebras and starting shooting 4K when clients request in the future.

2- Battery life is about 25-30% longer than the 1DC (in video mode). @Andrew @EOSHD_Twitter or any 1DC owner can tell us how long does the existing one go?

Thank you @Ebrahim Saadawi. This gets me excited. I hope Canon will surprise us with 4K HDMI output. I shoot weddings which are long (on average 3.5 hrs footage/camera for wedding & reception). I need to have lots of cards to record 500Mbps when decide to move to 4K. Cost is one factor but carrying and changing all those cards is just hard while wedding is going on.    

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi
3 minutes ago, NM said:

Thank you @Ebrahim Saadawi. This gets me excited. I hope Canon will surprise us with 4K HDMI output. I shoot weddings which are long (on average 3.5 hrs footage/camera for wedding & reception). I need to have lots of cards to record 500Mbps when decide to move to 4K. Cost is one factor but carrying and changing all those cards is just hard while wedding is going on.    

Don't get your hopes up. The external HDMI output is capped at 1080p 60p. All the 4K is going to be internal and not really suitable for reality but more for cinema/film style shooting.

Shooting with this or a 1DC in 4K for a wedding should only be used only as B-cmera for beauty shots while having an actual video camera that has a very long recording time & battery & audio and ergonomics cover all the piece.

But a DSLR alone is a bad choice, unless heavily rigged (External power brick, external recorder, external sound recorder, tons of cards if 4K, etc).

The C100II or so is a much better camera for weddings. Or a small DSLR-like camera that has long recording time to small 4K files is the GH4, almost the only camera of that form that can carry a wedding bare-bones (because of battery life & no record limit & tiny high quality files)

If you really want to make it happen, a 1DXII + small HD recorder + two extra batteries will work to shoot a wedding piece. HD ProRes. 4K, add a punch of CF/CFast cards (up to 2-3K$ investment). This is the only way or a 1DXII/DSLR type camera to work in that environment. 

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13 hours ago, Taranis said:

Lookin' good.

 

Fantastically shot video with great sound, but tackily edited.

Picture quality looks great. Not head and shoulders above the 1D C though - it looks like the 1D C does when you turn off Canon LOG. Digitally sharpened in-camera and baked in colour.

5 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

Don't get your hopes up. The external HDMI output is capped at 1080p 60p. All the 4K is going to be internal and not really suitable for reality but more for cinema/film style shooting.

What do you think is Canon's reasoning regarding the lack of 4K HDMI, something even a £600 Panasonic G7 has?

I really don't understand it.

With Sony very keen to work with Atomos and Convergent Design, Canon seem to want to shun them.

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14 hours ago, NM said:

Two questions:

1.  I shoot weddings and very few clients are requesting 4K at this point so I will be shooting HD for at least a year. I would not be happy with HD 4:2:0 which is done internally.

But your clients aren't getting 4:2:2 anyways. Everyone looks at 4:2:0 images all the time. Everything on youtube/blurays is 4:2:0. Getting it originally at 4:4:4 doesn't matter if you don't do specific grading that uses those 4:2:2 sharper edges (like doing masks and mattes with color channels).

The things is, capturing at 4:4:4 and then viewing at 4:2:0 is the same thing as capturing at 4:2:0 and viewing at 4:2:0. There is no quality difference to be attained. Except 4:4:4 looks better in your edit suite when viewed at 100%. 

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On February, 11, 2016 at 0:53 PM, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

Yes referring to the HDMI output while in 4K mode. Can be recorded to any cheap HD external recorder like a ninja 2 or star. 

Didn't give a word about it, so I suspect 5D(s/III) quality. No surprises as they'd have been mentioned.

The 5Ds has a great HD though, not the best, but good. I assume this is no better, at least not too much. 4K is the deal here. 

Go to the pinned Native Camera files Thread on this forum. See if there's a 1DC file to download or if no just ask for it, andrew or one of the many 1DC owners will upload you one. Try that in your machine just to know exactly how the files will work if you get a 1DXII.

You'll probably want (not need) to transcode to ProRes for super fluidity and storage reduction. But try it. 

MJPEG 500mbps 4:2:2 is not a friendly codec for computers or drives, but it does give a hell of a lot of quality, just like having in-camera ProRes HQ in a DSLR quality wise. 

Thanks Ebrahim;  downloaded a 1dc clip to my maxed out iMac. No problems what so ever to edit in FCPX, even with adding plugins like Colour Finale, Lock and Load . 

So that will not be a issue. 

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to me this is exactly what I wanted specs wise since I do equal amount of video and photography. The only downside is price, but it's alright. This will last for years! But that price, haha... The rest, like the weight is only things that annoy me a little. I would love this in 5D style body and 2/3 of the weight. This tank is really stretching it for street photography and guerilla style shooting. Annoying, yes. But not something that would stop me.

I haven't used a Canon since the t2i and I just got angry for every new camera Canon came up with (along with many others). And after going trough the BMCC, Sony a7s and GH4 I want a well-built, reliable workhorse that is thought trough with a quality preserving codec and nice colors. I'm tired of overheating little bodies with bad battery life and weird menues. I'm sick of the 100mbit/s H264 and weird colors from small and noisy sensors.

Hopefully the rolling shutter will be improved and they'll add C-log (cause, why not? 4K DCI at 60p but no cinema PP?) and an aps-c crop in HD mode. Perhaps that will sharpen it up a bit alá a7rII? Never really liked FF for video, but love it for photography!  

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

the s35 mode on the 1DC is not really a useful feature since the 1.3x 4K mode downsampled is simply better. It's only a useful feature for matching the 1DC to gen.1 C300 & C100/C100II, as it gives an almost 100% identical image/mount/sensor-size/c-log/DR/HD and small file sizes. But the 1.3x 4K image is superior to these s35 cameras with a much thicker codec and the real selling point of the 1DC/XII. And C-Log2, a great number of 1DC users are using ProLost and the Portrait PS (best skin rendition) and with -4 contrasr, -4 saturation, 0 sharpness, you have a really good flat-ish platform to grade from. You can try Cinestyle for super flat. For the flattest & lowest contrast PS, the 1DXII has a new "Fine detail'' picture style with lower contrast than neutral. Not to say C-Log wouldn't be great and much better, just workarounds that limitation. And don't expect C-Log, it's reserved for C-designated models. 

Overall the 1DXII seems like an overall better camera than the 1DC.

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Of course, unless I need 120fps I'm sticking to the 4k mode! I was thinking that it would be easier to get a cleaner image in s35 rather than FF in HD mode like the a7rII. But then again, most FF cameras with s35 crop HD look a lot worse than FF mode (Nikon D750).

Lack of C-log isn't a deal breaker for me, from the footage I've seen DR seems improved (and it looks like they were shot on standard profiles)! I just think it's weird since the camera have other cinema features like DCI 4k and true 24p (something 1DC doesn't have, only 23,976 if I remember correctly?). Loads of flat profiles, but they were all made with the 5D2, so who knows how well they'll work? Can they reach the full potential of the new sensor and give a nice curve? I will try them all and probably try to make my own as well. Cool to hear about a "fine detail" PS :D

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Beautiful. SO clean in colour/noise/gradients/roll-off. There's only one thing I don't like in the images, It looks video-ish. Canon Picture Style sharpening left at default. It's that distinct Canon sharpening algorithm and while it looks way nicer applied on 4K detail I still much prefer to see a soft completely un-sharpened image, just detail, like the 1DC/RED/ALEXA/BM. I hope neutral flat prolost gives an organic rendering of detail. If Zero PS setting still gives this overly sharp image, the 1DC is going to have a way more filmic image and the 1DXII be a tad videoish in an nx1 way. However history shows Canon PS goes to no sharpening on all their cameras ever produced, so hopes are up.

60p 4K looks mind-blowing, here under the microscope:

 

12 hours ago, hempo22 said:

Of course, unless I need 120fps I'm sticking to the 4k mode! I was thinking that it would be easier to get a cleaner image in s35 rather than FF in HD mode like the a7rII. But then again, most FF cameras with s35 crop HD look a lot worse than FF mode (Nikon D750).

Unfortunately you'll need to use the 4K 1.3x mode for all recording except when 120p FF. Having a sharp small-filed s35 option as on the 1DC (scaled down internally from a 2.8K window) would have been something I'll use a LOT for long recordings and small quick HD projects, but it sadly isn't provided according to Canon. But if data is no issue, 1.3x is better anyway to just stick with at all times and buying enough large CF/CFast cards at purchase time as a part of the 1DXII system cost...

On mode variations, The 1DC has a crap FF image & a great S35 image, while the D750 has the opposite, lovely FF and terrible s35. The A7rII also has a better image in s35 mode than FF mode, A7s/A7SII have a much nicer FF mode vs the s35 (upscaled mode). D810 has consistently good FF & S35 images, identical. What a mess ha!

We don't have any idea on how the regular FF HD looks on the 1DXII but I sensed they're trying to say there isn't much of an improvement there (= crappy soft-ish HD like the 1DC/5DIII H.264). 

1DC's S35 mode and C-Log are the two bugging me out (s35 mode more, I love Canon picture styles filmic looks/colours) because of how much better the 1DXII is, it could've been complete with these two firmware add-ons

and some peaking edge dots that people are lined up for. Too simple.

Hey Canon? Satisfy the nerds for once pleease by not crippling ANYTHING in one camera, it's your flagship! Makes you wonder how much theyll take off the 5DIV, maybe 4K all together.

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3 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

Hey Canon? Satisfy the nerds for once pleease by not crippling ANYTHING in one camera, it's your flagship!

 

Amen to that, Ebrahim!

 

APS-H isn't bad, right between FF and s35, so I'm good. I just really dislike the typical 5D look where everyone shot wide open on fast telephoto lenses and barely got anything in focus. The footage from this camera is really clean (from what I've seen, even in low light), so stopping down a bit to get more of a s35 DOF is def possible, and we need lenses at their sharpest anyway now with 4K (just turn down the in-camera sharpening waaaaay down!) + give the focus puller a chance (sometimes that amazing autofocus isn't an option due to lens choices).

Speaking of the autofocus: Is their a difference in USM and STM lenses for this? Only seen 70D videos and the STM seems quieter, but I guess either would be fine if recording audio externally?

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi
5 hours ago, hempo22 said:

Speaking of the autofocus: Is their a difference in USM and STM lenses for this? Only seen 70D videos and the STM seems quieter, but I guess either would be fine if recording audio externally?

The difference in the sound is stark, STM lenses are dead quiet, ghost-quiet, no sound at all while operation, while USM lenses Roar in pride! The speed in stills AF the USM motor is stronger and makes powerful pushes, gets fast AF. While STM motors are physically weaker in built, and acquire final stills AF slower, all things being equal. 

There's something worthy of notion: there are no STM lenses for the 1DXII, (all of them are APS-C/S35 - so won't cover the 1.3x in most cases)

Except for the Canon EF 24-105mm STM IS, a variable aperture lens (not the f/4 L). (Which does send a message that Canon will release later STM FF lens)

However using the USM and all Canon lenses DPAF works 100% smoothly. Just any on-camera microphone will pick-up sound, real good ugly roaring sound...



 

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2 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

The difference in the sound is stark, STM lenses are dead quiet, ghost-quiet, no sound at all while operation, while USM lenses Roar in pride! The speed in stills AF the USM motor is stronger and makes powerful pushes, gets fast AF. While STM motors are physically weaker in built, and acquire final stills AF slower, all things being equal. 

There's something worthy of notion: there are no STM lenses for the 1DXII, (all of them are APS-C/S35 - so won't cover the 1.3x in most cases)

Except for the Canon EF 24-105mm STM IS, a variable aperture lens (not the f/4 L). (Which does send a message that Canon will release later STM FF lens)

However using the USM and all Canon lenses DPAF works 100% smoothly. Just any on-camera microphone will pick-up sound, real good ugly roaring sound...

Canon's 40mm 2.8 and 50mm 1.8 cover full-frame, and are STM lenses.

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi
7 hours ago, photographer-at-large said:

Canon's 40mm 2.8 and 50mm 1.8 cover full-frame, and are STM lenses.

Correct thanks, two little things that are easily forgotten, even in the bag!

Just some information about STM lenses that I've been discovering recently (will make a thread about them):

The 40mm F/2.8 STM uses a different very primitive type of STM motors to reach the pancake size, the lens makes pretty big noise with AF that when I got it I didn't understand why it was designated with the STM badge, then realized the two motor types of STM used for the 40mm vs. the others (Lead-screw type & Gear-type STM motors) So stay away from the Forty for a quiet STM. Otherwise (from sound) it's still a good 40mm pancake.

ef_03_stm.jpg

I sold the 40mm and don't see why anyone would buy it versus the lovely 50mm f/1.8 STM. Faster, quieter, not much bigger, doesn't have a usable focus ring (think old 50mm 1.8 II ring), maybe for those looking for an SL1 companion. Using both the 50mm f/1.8 STM is just a better lens in Canon's book for less money. Much sharper too when stopped down to f/2.8 with a bit higher contrast. No effective difference in focal length. Size may be more important to other than me. 

-The bigger 55-250mm IS (GREAT lens),10-18mm STM IS (Lovely lens), 18-135mm, 24-105mm IS are all dead lenses in term of sound and movement, And by the way the focus-by-wire implementation on Canon's STM lenses is nothing like Sony/Panasonic's, there's no speed shift and the focus throw is repeatable, 270 degree throw on my just bought 55-250mm with a perfectly smooth ring designed for manual focus, better than old nikkor & L glass rings, much larger throw. Zero breathing. Parfocal zooming (seems done electronically as it's not parfocal with the camera off)

Canon really designed these lenses for convenient video shooting. They just forgot a lens needs a camera body on the back as well :)

Two annoyances:

-Ring just keeps turning past the points so no marking unless you mark both the start and end points (and I just did a side by side showing identical sharpness and image quality of 55-250mm STM to the 70-200mm f/2.8 and better video IS, but more on that later, I must make a thread about these un-discovered lenses)  

-The other is that it needs power so Canon's or active adapters. 

Yup the nifty fifty will be a great toy on the 1DX II with super shallow DOF & STM no sound. 

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

The footage looks absolutely phenomenal as well as DPAF. Lowlight and DR and detail reproduction are well beyond the typical 1DC here on my 4K TV from Vimeo 4K..

 One thing I feared most however, is the in-camera sharpening at zero not having an organic soft ZERO sharpness effect, and this is the case, unfortunately I report, the 1DC with C-LOG eliminates ALL traces of digital sharpening but the 1DxII will still contain some to a degree even with Sharpness at OFF with ProLost, not as an organic of a render as the 1DC, but the other image quality and camera attributes seem really improved. This needed C-LOG! Damn you Canon. 

Cinestyle always had absolutely no digital sharpness or contrast, so that's my last hope. The in-camera sharpness of models really is a deal breaker for me and I know this sounds like nip ticking but the reason I am not shooting on the NX1 is exactly that, too much digital sharpening with the exact same detail as the beautifully soft 1DC as Soft 35mm film and Soft 6K R3D and Soft 2.8K ArriRaw, It's a big deal for me and C-Log might just win attracting me as a 4K long term investment with a rugged body that will never die. 

We need to get this 1DXII in @Andrews Hands ASAP! 

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the video above is what sold me on low light and autofocus. now I'm just waiting for a rolling shutter test! I like handheld, but I guess going back to sticks and glidecam would be a nice way to get creative again, haha.

The in-camera sharpness att zero isn't bothering me too much, but yeah. Eliminate it completely before releasing the camera, Canon, preferably trough c-log ;) 

"Help me, Technicolor Cinestyle, you're our only hope!"

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