FHDcrew

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

If you included MFT sized sensors (which are really only barely smaller than APS-C) then this question is easy to answer:

Secondhand Panasonic GH5 / G9! (you might even include the Panasonic G85 if you a "good" 8bit codec you feel is sufficient, as you'd still find it to be better than your 70D codec. But of course nowhere at the level of the GH5 / G9 10bit codec)

Otherwise, you're completely out of luck!

If you're going to ignore MFT, but want a camera which won't overheat, with IBIS & 10bit then you'll have to spend more to go with:

Panasonic S5 or Fujifilm X-T4 (or say the X-S10 which is sub  US$1K, but is 8bit 422 but you could pair it with an external recorder to get 10bit 422)

 

I will play devils advocate here and suggest what no one suggests. 
 

Buy a used Nikon Z6. Then buy a Ninja V. If you only need 1080p get an older, cheap Atomos recorder. Atomos Ninja Star is quite cheap and tiny, and you could also go with a ninja 2.  These all go less than $300 on the used market. Bam. No overheating, stabilized, excellent codec, great DR, very respectable video autofocus. Downfall is to get the nice, high dynamic range you have to use an external recorder at all times. So MAKE SURE you either like working with external recorders, or, as is my case, am begrudgingly willing to put up with them for the sake of the better image. 
 

It’s not under $1000, though can be quite cheap  

https://www.adorama.com/us1543931.html

https://www.adorama.com/us1549069.html

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

So many variables…

Native or non-native lens.

Prime or zoom.

Full frame or S35.

Type of AF selected:

Fine-tuning of AF.

Lighting conditions of subject, background, foreground (remember it’s contrast based).

Distractions such as is there something ‘more interesting’ nearby waving it’s arms about?

The user’s familiarity with the system.

Perfect? Hardly but then we know that.

Useable? All points above considered, definitely.

I wish I had this camera in my hands to test the AF for my scenario. Seems like it might honestly work for what I need. Basically would be using native Panasonic lenses, probably a combo of the 50mm 1.8 and the 20-60 kit, with the 20-60 being an acting duty 20mm prime for me. 
 

I would need basic AF to stick on to a face with some basic handheld motion, would need it to be stable enough to do basic gimbal tracking shots, and would need it to be able to keep a person in-focus, in a controlled, properly lit scene. 
 

I’d even be willing to accept a bit of background pulsing, as long as the subject isn’t going crazy out of focus. 
 

I would want to shoot 4k 24fps in full-frame mode. 
 

But might be willing to go super 35 and use a lens like a sigma 18-35 instead. 
 

Only reason I got a Z6/Ninja V combo instead was the superior AF

Edit: Has anyone tried shooting 4k 50 or 60p in the super 35 mode, then using optical flow in post to confirm it to 24p without changing speed?

Wait, so the original sigma fp autofocus isn’t unusable?  Could I trust it to keep a face in focus for an interview, shooting wide open at 1.8?  Could I do a basic tracking shot on a gimbal and not have any crazy pulsating?

Certainly preferable over the GH6. We get internal Prores PLUS PDAF. 

Well there is our GH6 killer!!

Yeah, that’s unfortunate. If it’s PDAF has matured enough to compare well to say my Nikon Z6 AF, it will be perfect. I even feel “ethically” inclined to it. It sits well with me that the camera just gives us the plain, simple uncompressed raw readout. All cameras are capable of doing this to some extent, the manufacturers simply don’t do it. I’d be willing to sacrifice storage to have such a tiny camera with that level of image, assuming the AF is decent. Please run some tests if you get it!

Resolve makes a lot more sense for independent video producers. Unless the client requires premiere. I use resolve for everything but fear I will lose jobs because I don’t use premiere. But premiere feels outdated, and lumetri color is much worse than resolve’s color. 

Interesting. It seems to be one of those cameras where no YouTubers are using it, none of us see enough content to have a good idea of the camera’s current performance, so no one buys it. This we don’t know the AF as well as we should. 

You mean the phase detect AF was usable?  That camera is my dream if so. Good enough for a tracking gimbal shot?  Better than Panasonic s5?

Has anyone played with the Megadap etz11?  I’d like to grown my lens setup for the Z6; being able to use all the cheap e mount lenses is appealing. In particular, how does it perform with the cheap Samyang primes, or even the sigma apsc prime trio?

That would be amazing and would solve all my problems with the camera. 

Crazy idea. Since the Canon R10 has HLG 10 bit support, could we in theory bring the footage into Davinci resolve and do a very accurate color space transform into C-log 3?  That would mean the camera is log capable!  
This guy did this with Panasonic S1 HLG before V-log was freely available:

Yeah letting the camera go fully auto is a bad idea. I like the aforementioned hybrid, guided AF approach. For example on my Z6 the auto area AF doesn’t always focus on or do what I want. Sometimes I just have to intervene….

One more thing, if you can live with inferior AF, the S5 I think is a better video tool. Having internal 10 bit is mighty convenient. Better IBIS, V-log DR is probably more than N-Log, you get 4k 60p, etc. 

But the Z6 plus an external recorder is the cheapest full frame 10 bit camera with useable autofocus. Can’t think of anything cheaper. Keep in mind Canon R6 and A7iv used prices are barely a deal over the cameras new anyways. 

Well it’s 2022 now, and seems like I’m the only person using this camera for video. Everyone likes to use a Sony a7sIII or a Canon R5C. The Z6 provides an interesting feature set for those who cannot afford a more expensive option. At an affordable price it has what I call the “triple Goldilocks” featureset.  That is, this camera is full frame, has 10 bit 4k, and has very respectable phase-detect autofocus. 
 

This camera desperately needs an external recorder. Without one the camera seems pointless for video. You lose both 10 bit and log, a big smack in the face. The internal files lack dynamic range. I’ve gotten decent results with the neutral picture profile and the contrast dialed down a tad, but lighting needs to be optimal. Highlight rolloff is terrible and I’d honestly prefer Sony A7iii 8 bit because we at least have somewhat useable log. 
 

However, if you do hook up an external recorder, you are in for a treat. You get full frame 10 bit 4k. You get a really nice log profile with solid DR, great highlight retention, and a gentle rolloff. You can pick up a Ninja V plus a used Z6 body for sub $2000. This puts you in similar territory to the S5, but you get better autofocus that I think is very useable with the right lenses. 
 

N-log grades quite well in post. It responds well to overexposure. For interview shots I put middle gray at 50 IRE instead of the recommended 35 IRE. For run and gun I just look at my scopes and make sure the image is overexposed by a good amount without clipping. 
 

For grading, Nikon’s 3D LUT is horrendous. It’s better than nothing, but it seems to ruin the solid highlight rolloff of N-log. You also get a purple tint thrown in for free. It is much better to use the color space transfer in Davinci Resolve. This gets you clean, accurate color. If you overexpose the shot, a great way to bring things back is to use Resolve’s HDR panel by setting it’s color space and gamma to rec2020/N-log. Then use the “global” slider to bring your exposure down. You don’t have to use any other HDR wheels, just adjust your exposure here. Then go back to your primaries in a new node, and grade as normal. Voila!

There is a hidden feature of this camera. With an external recorder you can get beautiful over sampled 1080p. By default the 1080 is pixel binning trash. Looks like an EOS R. But set your record setting to 4k, and then in the HDMI settings select 1080p. Now it’s downsampling the full sensor readout further, to output a 1080 signal. This works with the Ninja V, giving you easier times in post and 1/4 file size. It also opens the option to use the lovely Atomos Ninja Star. I just bought that thing. Paired with the oversampled 1080 hack, this is a killer combo. You still get the full frame 10 bit log, good autofocus, and detailed image. But now you have a tiny external recorder that sips through battery and adds little weight to the camera. The camera feels more compact and is much lighter. For me I’m happy with a clean 1080p image, and slo mo is rare for my work. As such, this setup works well…if you can manage to find a ninja star. I could fit a whole day shooting onto a 256GB CFast card, no problem. I use the ninja star most often. When I need 4k or slow motion, I switch to the Ninja V. 
 

The camera landscape has changed since I got it. When I bought the camera, if I wanted the aforementioned features and internal 10 bit, I would have been forced to pick up the overheating Canon R6, which was out of my price range. I could have sacrificed autofocus and gotten the Panasonic S5. That camera is better in every way, except for the autofocus and it’s micro hdmi. The Z6 has a somewhat better mini HDMI. I could have also sacrificed sensor size to get a Fuji XT4. That honestly would have been a good option, I sometimes wish I went that route. 
 

Nowadays, if you can afford a Canon R6 or A7iv (and can get decent glass and lighting equipment so your stuff doesn’t look crappy) I would get it over the Z6. I’m not a fan of being tied to an external recorder, and the Ninja V adds too much weight for me. 
 

However, if you can’t seem to afford a R6 or an A7iv, and you want one of the best full frame images WITH GOOD AUTOFOCUS, a used Z6 and an external recorder is worth considering. 

Nikon Z6 plus an Atomos ninja star, along with the right HDMI settings, gives oversampled 1080p 24 or 30p, full frame 10 bit with a nice log curve and tons of DR. That should be a 1080p contender. 

Nikon never follow through. I’m a Z6 owner. Sucks that they claimed we would get a Prores RAW firmware update. They hyped it up and made it sound like it was free. Then it ended up being delayed, costing $200, and oh yeah, we have to physically mail our camera away!  That combined with the poor Davinci resolve comparability is why I still use N-Log. And N-Log holds up well against PRR. 

Same thing here, Nikon says “hey, we are giving this Z9 camera free internal raw!”  Then later, “oh sorry, we infringed some patents. We know you spent as much as a decent car on this camera, but we now have to remove the sole feature that led you to drop much more than anyone needs to on a camera.  Thank you for using Nikon!”

Life sucks for Nikon video users. We either are forced into external recorders with the z6/z7, or have to mess around with the slippery slope that is the z9. 
Moral of the story: either commit to an external recorder or don’t get a Nikon. 

Well it’s 2022 now, and seems like I’m the only person using this camera for video. Everyone likes to use a Sony a7sIII or a Canon R5C. The Z6 provides an interesting feature set for those who cannot afford a more expensive option. At an affordable price it has what I call the “triple Goldilocks” featureset.  That is, this camera is full frame, has 10 bit 4k, and has very respectable phase-detect autofocus. 
 

This camera desperately needs an external recorder. Without one the camera seems pointless for video. You lose both 10 bit and log, a big smack in the face. The internal files lack dynamic range. I’ve gotten decent results with the neutral picture profile and the contrast dialed down a tad, but lighting needs to be optimal. Highlight rolloff is terrible and I’d honestly prefer Sony A7iii 8 bit because we at least have somewhat useable log. 
 

However, if you do hook up an external recorder, you are in for a treat. You get full frame 10 bit 4k. You get a really nice log profile with solid DR, great highlight retention, and a gentle rolloff. You can pick up a Ninja V plus a used Z6 body for sub $2000. This puts you in similar territory to the S5, but you get better autofocus that I think is very useable with the right lenses. 
 

N-log grades quite well in post. It responds well to overexposure. For interview shots I put middle gray at 50 IRE instead of the recommended 35 IRE. For run and gun I just look at my scopes and make sure the image is overexposed by a good amount without clipping. 
 

For grading, Nikon’s 3D LUT is horrendous. It’s better than nothing, but it seems to ruin the solid highlight rolloff of N-log. You also get a purple tint thrown in for free. It is much better to use the color space transfer in Davinci Resolve. This gets you clean, accurate color. If you overexpose the shot, a great way to bring things back is to use Resolve’s HDR panel by setting it’s color space and gamma to rec2020/N-log. Then use the “global” slider to bring your exposure down. You don’t have to use any other HDR wheels, just adjust your exposure here. Then go back to your primaries in a new node, and grade as normal. Voila!

There is a hidden feature of this camera. With an external recorder you can get beautiful over sampled 1080p. By default the 1080 is pixel binning trash. Looks like an EOS R. But set your record setting to 4k, and then in the HDMI settings select 1080p. Now it’s downsampling the full sensor readout further, to output a 1080 signal. This works with the Ninja V, giving you easier times in post and 1/4 file size. It also opens the option to use the lovely Atomos Ninja Star. I just bought that thing. Paired with the oversampled 1080 hack, this is a killer combo. You still get the full frame 10 bit log, good autofocus, and detailed image. But now you have a tiny external recorder that sips through battery and adds little weight to the camera. The camera feels more compact and is much lighter. For me I’m happy with a clean 1080p image, and slo mo is rare for my work. As such, this setup works well…if you can manage to find a ninja star. I could fit a whole day shooting onto a 256GB CFast card, no problem. I use the ninja star most often. When I need 4k or slow motion, I switch to the Ninja V. 
 

The camera landscape has changed since I got it. When I bought the camera, if I wanted the aforementioned features and internal 10 bit, I would have been forced to pick up the overheating Canon R6, which was out of my price range. I could have sacrificed autofocus and gotten the Panasonic S5. That camera is better in every way, except for the autofocus and it’s micro hdmi. The Z6 has a somewhat better mini HDMI. I could have also sacrificed sensor size to get a Fuji XT4. That honestly would have been a good option, I sometimes wish I went that route. 
 

Nowadays, if you can afford a Canon R6 or A7iv (and can get decent glass and lighting equipment so your stuff doesn’t look crappy) I would get it over the Z6. I’m not a fan of being tied to an external recorder, and the Ninja V adds too much weight for me. 
 

However, if you can’t seem to afford a R6 or an A7iv, and you want one of the best full frame images WITH GOOD AUTOFOCUS, a used Z6 and an external recorder is worth considering.