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5 hours ago, mkabi said:

 

I respectfully disagree that those specs mentioned will “exceed expectations” as it only brings it close (but not exactly) to being on par with the latest competition being the S1H - which also has 6K recording.

I don’t know... I know most of us don’t need 8K... But, I wouldn’t mind having it as an option. Look, I also know for most of us and what we do... 1080p is good enough... 4K is literally overkill for family vacation stuff (forget about cat & dog videos; vlogging for YouTube included). But, a big part of me has stories that wants to make something for Sundance and Cannes; to literally publish in those 4K+ resolution... bah... may be I’m sharing too much.

Anyway, did you guys catch the sales at BH from Sony, I know it’s dumb to insinuate from the sales something big is coming tomorrow... BUT something BIG is coming

 

How does 8K on the A7SIII work exactly? 

Rolling shutter will be major issue since the readout will be slower moving more information. 

Sony can't do 4K at 10 bit or RAW right now so how can they just jump ahead and do that at 8K.

Sony data rates are lagging behind the others and now 8K at 100mbps is going to look like what?

How do you go from 4K to 8K? What happened to 5K or 6K?

They need to get 4K right before they make a move up. 

8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Judging by the discounts and cash back incentives on virtually all of the brands, I don't think any of them are having a particularly bumper time sales wise.

The problem for Nikon is that the L mount is building momentum through the upgrade of the S1, the announcement of the FP, the availability of the new Sigma lenses, the release of the S1H, the upcoming Sigma FF Foveon announcement and I suspect the new Leica SL isn't far off being announced now either.

None of that makes the Z6 a bad camera of course but Nikon need to wrestle some of that momentum back and a statement on when the upgrade is actually going to happen would be a start.

There's probably never been a better time NOT to buy a full frame camera though as within a few months Sony might be along with something that could blow everything out of the water, the Sigma FP might just be the full frame version of the original Pocket Cinema camera or the S1H might tick every box of being a full frame GH5s, or... if none of those things come to pass then the deflating prices of the S1 and Z6 etc will have no doubt continued anyway and they will become fantastic bargains, particularly used.

 

What about the non Z glass from Nikon? It works flawlessly with the Z adaptor and Sony E glass now works with the Z.

24 minutes ago, Geoff_L said:

Oh, I promise  you I am in the same boat ahah. Waiting for the Z6 raw update to maybe buy one again. But the S1 ticks a lot of boxes compared to Nikon, Sony and Canon equivalent, as I place IBIS and body sturdiness above, for example, AF (I see the Z6 as a smaller and lighter S1, with better AF but less impressive IBIS, so just a matter of priorities - in any case I favor it a lot compared to Canon and Sony offering). It even could make a good combo next year with the Sigma FP. But tomorrow announcement  from Sony could make a big difference ; even if their current offering does not interest me, I am really curious to hear about it. I also read 1 or 2 persons on forums or sonyalpharumors website praying for a A7SIII announcement tomorrow, as it could, according to them, force S1 prices to be lowered in order to  compete (not sure if it is in Panasonic habits to do so) !
 

Reminds me of what I saw with the GH5-S : few reviews, but a lot of raving ones (mostly from filmmakers if I remember), and a lot of complaints concerning the lack of IBIS (and AF). For the S1 : few reviews but owners seem to love it, especially with the current updates ; on the other hand, some complaints concerning AF being behind the competition...

Maybe the VLog upgrade will help them selling the camera (as the Z6 raw updates could be a good boost) !

If Nikon releases 12 bit RAW pro res then the Z6 resale value will go up.  I like the S1 on color science and either way I won't be sad to keep the Z6.  I'm also looking at which camera has the best cinematic quality for video. Which one treats highlights the best and if we can tell the difference between the two cameras. 

PR for the S1 and Z6 doesn't do well for all Sony's fan base on You Tube.

On 7/14/2019 at 7:40 AM, BTM_Pix said:

I think they need the actual release of the ProResRAW update to happen pretty soon.

Probably by their own traditional measure of "how are we doing against Canon?" then Nikon might well be satisfied as the Z series has largely received a better critical response at least than the R series though who knows what that translates to in sales.

They can't live in that duopoly vacuum any more though.

In the time its taken them to not get that update out, Panasonic have moved the game on significantly on the S series and Sigma have given the whole L mount situation a big boost not just with the FP announcement but with the lens announcements. 

This is Sigma's lineup for release by the end of the year 

• 20mm F1.4 Art
• 24mm F1.4 Art
• 35mm F1.4 Art
• 50mm F1.4 Art
• 85mm F1.4 Art
• 135mm F1.8 Art

Where are Nikon's native Z lenses to match that lineup and at what cost ?

The politics of the L mount alliance probably means that those lenses might remain L mount exclusives for a while as well.

Obviously, ProResRAW isn't going to move the needle any for sales to stills people but if nothing else it will get the Z series a re-boost in terms of attention with all the YouTube videos from the "Hey whats happening, its your boy Fred Knows Zed" bros.

The TechArt adapter should have been the icing on the cake for the Z but without the actual release of ProResRAW its still all a bit "jam tomorrow" for a lot of video people.

I don't know which end the issue is coming from thats delayed it but I have to say Atomos have also not released two of the three AtomX modules for the Ninja V yet either.

 

I'm waiting on the 12 bit RAW 4K update for the Z6 before I buy the Ninja V and this update will either keep my with Nikon or I will move to the P4K or S1. 

On 7/14/2019 at 7:40 AM, BTM_Pix said:

 

In the time its taken them to not get that update out, Panasonic have moved the game on significantly on the S series and Sigma have given the whole L mount situation a big boost not just with the FP announcement but with the lens announcements. 

 

 

Word is that the S1 is not selling very well either. Is this true as of July - ?

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

The Sony Venice Is a FF Cine Camera. And s35 is going to be around longer than you think. Too many lenses for them, and not enough FF Cine lenses, let alone will you be able to afford them.. So I don't think it will hurt Cine sales no matter what they come out with. And I don't think Sony gives to much of a crap about Consumer APSC cameras down the road anymore. Probably one of the announcements next week will be a cheap FF camera to compete with the Canon RS. Nobody is going to buy a APSC camera for 50 dollars less than you can buy a FF one. There will be 800 dollar FF cameras or less down the road.

Even Canon is probably going to have to give up on their cheap APSC cameras. Smartphones are now eating into them. And the M50 is doing well. No reason for them anymore.

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/digital-cinema-cameras/venice

I agree with your post 100%.

Is the Sony Venice relevant and the future? If so how does the glass issue come into play? 

The A7SIII seems to be painted in the corner.

I agree with Andrew in that the A7SIII has to stand apart.

Here's my prediction:

The A7SIII will come in alone the lines as the Lumix S1H -

• bigger body and new media cards are a must
• 4K 60fps 10 bit internal
• 4K 60fps RAW external
• Cine features
• Price $4,500
• Great AF
• Great color science

If Sony does this they exceed expectations along with pushing the retail price up. 

They would also promote this as a cine entry level camera. 

This would push back against the P4K and S1, S1H while improving quality performance.

On 7/13/2019 at 5:49 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I think this is genuinely a HUGE step.

Rarely, do we get such a big leap out of nowhere like this. I've never felt like any other camera was anything other than just good, or expected in 2019. This is different. It's like having a full frame Pocket 4K with nobs on... from the future.

This image sits in the cinema world, not the video one.

I've shot some S1 10bit V-LOG with it this weekend. Here's a frame:

Compared to the X-T3 10bit F-LOG, dynamic range seems wider and shadows cleaner. Image is creamier, and less noisy at high ISOs. Base ISO is 640 in V-LOG, but extended ISO can go a bit lower.

Compared to A7 III S-LOG 2/3, the codec is far more robust, less banding and compression, it looks like ProRes.

I'll upload the original MOV files soon.

How does the S1 update compare to what you see from the Z6 ?  I like what Panasonic is doing with it's full frame line up.  Great looking footage.

On 7/13/2019 at 11:04 PM, webrunner5 said:

Yeah as of late it is VERY un Sony like. There must have been a big shake up in the Mirrorless side. They were rolling over everyone for awhile. Now They are getting rolled over,. Very odd. It must have been they were starting to step on the Cine, Broadcast peoples toes at Sony.

I think Sony thought they would control the full frame mirrorless market all the way to 2020 and the Olympics.  I don't think Sony anticipated other companies willingness to unlock 4K sensor readout at 10bit.  The S1 looks really good with the latest firmware update and it goes beyond specs but image quality. 

Sony's in a pickle because how good do you make the A7SIII full frame sensor without Sony's non full frame Sony's cine line up taking a hit? 

And you have the S1H full frame moving even further into the cine world. 

And how future proof is Sony's cine line up if they don't go full frame with a new cine camera. 

11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I think Nikon is meeting same problems as before with Nikon 1.

A bit too much aimed at consumers, pricey lenses, not pro enough.

We enthusiasts all know the Z6 is a very capable camera, but I don't think it's selling very well.

Nikon 1 was a total failure by the end.

Is full frame alone and fancy specs enough to stop Z series from a similarly miserable fate?

Do we ever get global sales reports or only from Japan? I don't think any full frame mirrorless is selling well right now outside the A7III. 

S1 sales did not take off and I think Canon and Nikon total sales have gone up in Japan.

Great Z7 footage - 

On 7/7/2019 at 8:20 AM, Geoff_L said:

Yes true, and economics is a field I know nothing about so I won't presume anything ahah ?
But still, in your examples, canon and fujifilm are deliberate sales, cashback etc. Here, with Nikon, it is just the market prices going down or some shops that deliberately cut the price in a surprising way...
But as you said, maybe the point is to establish a users basis, pushing the adoption of existing Nikon dslr users, and quickly move to a 2nd generation that will be really above competition (which the z6 already is in a lot of areas).

Anyway, this is good news for us customers ?
Oh, and we can add to your examples the flash sales of blackmagic some years ago, with a pocket cinema camera almost sold for half its regular price (if I remember !) ! We can dream the same thing with the bmpcc4k...

Except Nikon resellers are not allowed to drop the price of Nikon gear below set retail prices. This includes the Z6 and Z7.  Nikon controls this just like Honda controls the price it's cars can be sold at independently owned Honda dealerships. 

Everyone looked around when you first said the sky was falling with the Z7 and Z6 and you either lied or got caught in a mistaken comment that wasn't true.  I looked at eBay use, eBay in the UK, resale Facebook groups and no one is sailing the Z7or Z6 for the prices you claim. 

And now another post with a dig at Nikon and it's falling prices.

I think you're what we call a "paid market influencer". You're paid to keep making these comments about the Nikon Z series to you erode consumer confidence. 

3 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

1) Buy an external recorder so you can get n-log or buy Andrew's log profile. 

2) I am not employed by Atomos or Nikon, so I have no idea

I thought you tested the profiles. Really? I thought you were employed by Nikon for some reason.

I messaged Andrew about log profile and no response yet.

I'll be getting the Atomos recorder once I get the P4K and 12bit Raw comes out for the Z6.

7 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

Portrait Profile and change these:

Sharpening -3

Mid-range sharpening -1

Contrast -2.5

I have given up using log or flat profiles in 8-bit. It is never worth it, and you loose color information. The increase in color information is worth loosing some DR.

Which profile is best for DR?

And any idea when 12bit Video RAW is coming ?

On 6/21/2019 at 10:32 PM, Geoff CB said:

Default Sharpness on Nikon is very high and needs to be turned down out of the box for video. 

One thing that no one has mentioned is the Mid-range sharpening setting on the Z series. Turning it down a little bit softens skin and an create a more creamy look. 

I tested the camera before the upgrade and it fell short of my D750 for AF, the new firmware brings it on par with that camera. Good enough for me! 

Have captured white balance data as a preference? And for video what settings give you the best color and dynamic range with the most cinematic look?

On 6/8/2019 at 12:24 PM, DBounce said:

Yes but most of the video centric versions ditch IBIS.. GH5S(No IBIS) S1H(No IBIS) etc... Certainly no professional cinema cameras have IBIS. For me I see IBIS as great for stills... horrible for video; it can sometimes warp the image and ruin the shot. This is understandable as the sensor is also correcting for yaw and pitch. If IBIS only corrected for X Y axises. I believe this would not be such a problem. I feel ultimately, EIS, as seen on the Osmo Action and GoPro... but with better quality, will be the future for cinema. And with large sensors like this, it would be very feasible. 

Cine cameras are huge and not run n gun so IBIS has never been considered. IBIS is also new for video and on the Nikon Z6 IBIS is great for video. Not perfect but great.

I thought the S1H is going to have IBIS? 

On the Nikon Z6 you can turn off IBIS so I'm not sure what the issue is. Turn IBIS is you don't want to use it. 

On 5/26/2019 at 7:42 PM, webrunner5 said:

Yeah the main takeaway in Northrup video, and I agree, is that it is no secret that cameras companies make their money off of lenses. And there as of now is not enough people that is going to buy Canon, Nikon Mirrorless cameras to justify making 5 models of them. So they are depending on DSLR sales and lens buyers to make the real profit. The problem is that is going to hell also. Sony was smarter than they look by dumping the A line DSLR cameras years ago. And they pretty much only have 1 mount for all their stuff. They are in a great position compared to a lot of others.

But as of July 4th ( Happy Independence Day everyone) the gimmick of the day is lens adaptors and using Sony or Nikon on the Z series body. The same goes with other companies. So how are lens sales to one company the bottom line for survival? 

6 hours ago, Geoff_L said:

Aaaaaahh it was Joe, sorry... "lol".

You jump on everybody here when someone dare to question something concerning the z6, and with a pathetic, disturbing way. You should browse your past interactions with others here, on many forum posts, maybe it will give you a hint on your problem.... I've got a mean spirit with strange internet paladins like you, that read nothing of others, except what you want to read in it, and attack blindly to defend... I don't even know what ahah.

I was browsing the entire post concerning the pana, by interest for the subject (yes I love pana... maybe you will interpret that as an attack toward the z6?), and I came across one of your glorious arguing...See, the problem of living smelling tracks everywhere...

Anyway, you were on my block list for a while, so I normally can't read you, but this time I was browsing and loggued off... My bad, won't happen again !

You had issues with me telling you to stop saying the "sky is falling" with the Z6 and that prices weren't dropping like you say they are.

Fast forward a month or so and you're still making comments about the Z6 and that you can now get it for half the original price. You also keep making personal attacks toward me for calling your stupid obsession with the Z6 prices that don't exist. 

You have some bent anger towards any Z6 owner because you had to sell your gear. get over it, the prices don't match what you claim.

7 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

Prores raw from the z6 is one of four options. 1. It is a 4k crop (likely). 2. It is 4k full frame using line skipping or binning, probably producing bad artifacts 3. It is 6k full frame. 4. It is oversampled and really should not be called raw.

See it's these little comments about "artifacts" and "should not be called raw" that shows all the doubt in the world.  Why? People get tech on this like they know more then the people working on this. 

10 hours ago, Skip77 said:

I believe they said it would be 14bit RAW.

So that might mean a slight crop into the sensor and full sensor readout?

On 6/9/2019 at 1:23 PM, KnightsFan said:

 

So if it is FF is it 6k or does it line skip? I assumed it must crop for 4k.

Z6 - It does not line skip now or with RAW.

"Z6 full sensor in 4k video uses full 6k oversampling to create 4k footage."

24 minutes ago, Geoff_L said:

Man, you are helpless. I thought you were out since many days in order to offer yourself a well needed cure.... too bad....

And that is a pity you still don't get my hyperbola, as you seem to like them :

 

Do you have a link that shows the technical reality of the "x24734 crop" of the eosr you talked about ?

See, that is easy to play the dumb game instead of arguing, right ?

My comment was Joe and your comment was not and was followed by a "glorious fail" comment by Andrew.  You seem to get your kicks off by taking personal shots at me.  What's the point? except that you're a mean spirited guy if someone calls you out. 

Glad you're keeping still image of my post since you like me so much. Go stalk someone else tough guy.

20 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

Its 12 bit prores raw.

I dont think there are any cameras on the market under $20k excluding the RED cams and Sony Cine Alta F5 that do 14 bit raw video. 

You are correct. 

On 6/10/2019 at 2:47 PM, thebrothersthre3 said:

I just doubt its going to happen considering prores RAW has been 12 bit not 14. Nikon hasn't hinted at anything more. 

I believe they said it would be 14bit RAW.

On 6/13/2019 at 6:02 PM, webrunner5 said:

I think the blending of the sea and land shots were a bit clunky, but I would expect that transition. Kind of uneasy inserts. I thought the CS was better than average from previous videos on one I have seen. I will give her credit for that. Maybe she come from more of a Photography background? Hard to move between the two.

This stuff is hard. There is a reason when the credits roll at the end why there are about a Hundred people or more listed on top notch films. But we are beginning to shrink down that list if a person takes their time and thinks things out. Slow and easy is the trick. You can't rush video. You can spray and pray in Photo, rarely happens with video.

Trouble is at 24p there are 1440 frames in a minute.  That is a lot of shots and data.

The footage looks great and can only look better with RAW. I agree about some of the editing choice as they could have had less shots play out to tell the story. Less is more in this case. Some shots didn't make sense at all. It was a good watch.

On 5/23/2019 at 2:14 AM, Geoff_L said:

For those interested to buy it in Europe.

Today, in a German store, with sales and rebates : z6 + 24-70 + ftz = 2169€

https://www.foto-erhardt.de/kameras/vollformat-kameras/nikon-z6-plus-24-70mm-plus-ftz-objektivadapter-kit.html

(Do not evoke the falling prices...Do not evoke the falling prices...).

Used prices will dive a little more ! My hyperbola talking about "half the price" was in fact a prophecy ?

No that's still not half the price and you've provided no links that show used Z6 or Z7 prices at "half the price" of original retail.  Keep that sky falling though no one is listening. 

On 6/20/2019 at 5:12 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Fuck, this camera is a glorious failure.

It only hurts for me and other early adopters. The rest of you are going to get a bargain!!

How is this a glorious failure? The quality is above the other full frame cameras and they've kept the promise of firmware updates for Eye-AF. 

12 bit RAW is coming and Sony E-mount was just released. Price adjustment is not a failure.  The market for cameras above 2K does not push that many cameras for any brand. 

Nikon Z6 sales are also going up while Sony's is going down. Sony also just lost market share to Canon and Nikon for full frame mirrorless. 

And last thought - Show me where to get the P4K and rig it up and I will buy one asap.

The S1 is a bigger glorious failure then the Z6 if you count sales on, right?

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I am on the very low end lol as are most people on here, at least from what I've seen. Except maybe webrunner

Lol.... I'm on the low end also trying to create great work.....

I also edit, storyboard and handle creative so the word "try" covers a lot of areas. 

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't personally know a single narrative filmmaker that uses auto focus even when using cameras that have good AF. They all use manual lenses, which gives them complete control over focusing. 

I know what manual focus is used for. That means you missed the point. I said AF on DSLR and mirrorless was not the reason Pro's don't use those cameras. You guys mention AF and say Pro's don't use that and won't use that camera and that's not the reason they don't use that camera. 

4 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Should see and do see are two different things though. Of course you can use a camera in manual mode but nothing out there right now can compete with a RED or Arri image quality wise. Most hybrids don't have proper SDI or anything either which alone would turn me away from using one on a bigger production. 

I just don't think the demand is there which is why companies like RED or Arri aren't pursuing auto focus tech. The only people that really care are people on the low end. 

You pros are always putting down the people on the low end for some reason.....hmmm.