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5 hours ago, Emanuel said:

S1H can't be anything, it doesn't exist yet : D MSRP is not street price. $500 more when Z7 was announced.

Thus, you only pay $500 more for internal 6K 24p / 5.9K 30p + 4K DCI & UHD 4:2:2 10-bit 60p FF and you even complain? LOL

: -)

Nice trolling on your part. 

You don't know the price of the S1H right now. The Z7 was never built as a cine level camera. 

The S1H is roughly $4,000 and could be higher. The S1R is $3,700 so do the math.

The full frame readout Z6 with 12 bit RAW video at $1,700 or the S1H at $4,000. Again do the math and compare the two in cine money.  

I'm not building my camera rig based on the S1H and 4K 60fps ( most likely having a crop).

5 hours ago, currensheldon said:

S1 = A7III, Z6, EOS R (but is vastly superior to all of those IMO, so is really playing in a field by itself).

Did you say the EOS R is vastly superior?  

5 hours ago, Emanuel said:

I guess the S1H is in the Z7 range as much as S1 goes to Z6.

Nothing against the brand. I am a convicted Nikkorist, one of my first loves was a Nikon F3, the beginning of my collection and still in my hands, one day for my heirs : D but no less brand agnostic and picture lover.

4K / 60p is such a tremendous of a feature! (E : -)

 

If that would occur, it would put Z6 at some other level indeed, I'd really hope so!

Correct -

Te Z7 is in the S1R range not the S1H range.  How could that be a possibility? The Z7 body goes for $2,996 and the S1H is $4,000 and $5,600 when you smack a lens on it.

21 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Cliff, good points here for video shooters on the actual hybrid panorama, Sony related too, not only Panasonic.

Funny he didn't even mention the most recent Nikons, I guess for the same reason already pointed out countless times... lack of 4K/60p ; -)

The S1H looks like a beast of a camera. It is also $4,000 and the Nikon Z6 is not $4,000. 

This video mentions the A7III as a camera on the market but we all know that is not a camera that's leading the market for video in any way, at all.

The Nikon Z6 could get 4K/60p with an update like the S1 so you never know.

Again for $4,000 you're in cine camera money and cine cameras don't over heat like the S1H is said to do from Panasonic.  

Not sure why you're taking digs at Nikon.

26 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

This was my FS5, which unless I'm shooting HLG I hate the color it pushes out.   What do you mean CS? 

Color science 

12 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

I think I might go back to Film Convert Pro, I had it on Premiere Pro and it was pretty good. The official Slog 2 conversion luts from Sony are absolute booty trash I really don't like the color EOSHD gives off.. 

Prob use this for my Slog stuff and HLG 2 for quick turnaround. 

Which Sony model do you have? And how do you find the CS?

7 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Canon produces nicer colors than Sony, yes, but no newer camera really "destroys" any other newer camera. They're all capable of producing good video, even Sony. The major difference is personal preference and workflow. Which is the best tool for your type of work? 

@Mattias Burling has always had the right attitude, I think. He uses the Canon EOS R because it's the right tool for him and his work. Nothing more, nothing less. He's not going on about how it "destroys" this camera or that camera, because even if it were true it's not really relevant. What's good for you might not be good for me and features that are important to you might not be important to me. 

All of these cameras will still be able to produce "good enough" images 5 years from now, even as new cameras with better specs get released, just as there are people producing good videos today using old GH cameras or old Canon Rebel cameras. 

You ask what camera can touch the Z6? Pretty much all of them, honestly. And that's okay. 

Almost all of the things you praise about the Z6, including the sensor size, are "specs." ?

The difference is the things a praise about the Z6 can be backed up in picture quality. 

These improvements over the A7III include:

- Better IBIS

- Better color science 

- Higher data rate for video which gives you more information

- Better 10 bit video that you can see with you eyes. No banding

- 12 Bit RAW is coming so check this on the list

- Better media card

- More future proof

Again this is 2019. You want invest in Sony A7III or the GH5 m 4/3 go ahead. I'm not. No way. Most others are on the fence also. 

Also - bad color is bad color no matter if it's stills or video.

25 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Yeah, that's a spec you can find going with several MFT camera models.

The hardest you'll try, you won't find any smartphone with such sensor size anyway ; )

 

And several of them from distinct manufacturers, not only one : P

Why bother to even mention? It is so obvious what Z6 cannot offer.

 

Hey, I guess we've already had this conversation before, no? Sounds a déjà vu feeling BTW : -)

Why are you bringing up smartphone sensor size compared to m 4/3 ? 

That's my point that m 4/3 is not full frame. M 4/3 can't do what full frame can do just like smartphone sensor can't do what m 4/3 can.

47 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The GH5, with its 4k 60p and much better stabilization.

When did hyperbolic nonsense pass from camera manufacturers to the actual camera users? These are cameras, not sports teams. Give it a rest with the "x destroys x!" stuff. 

It's not that at all except this is 2019 and if I'm putting $2 - 3 -4K on a camera I want to do my homework. 

If I had the money I would buy a pure cine camera because of the S1, S1H and Z6 RAW market. It's unsettled right now.

My Z6 has worked well and paid for itself already but I'm not one to invest in glass if I'm not sure of a system. I never ever thought I would own a Nikon camera for stills or video. 

Andrew proved Canon color science destroys Sony color science and if I has a Canon I would shout it out loud also. It really is a beautiful thing. Canon color science is also better then Nikon but Nikon holds the second spot in my opinion. 

Update:

My views on the P4K has changed for the better because of this message board and so has being open to other camera brands that I don't own. 

13 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

 

4K @ 60p

That's a spec.  Smartphones do 4K @ 60p. 

Full frame 4K 30fps ful sensor @ 10 bit - what m4/3 can do this? None because they aren't full frame. 

22 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Pretty much because Sony innovates and the rest sit on their ass and copy them. Nikon was just about on their death bed, may still be, before they decided to finally dump DSLR's for the Twenty First Century Tech.  You have tied your wagon to a dying horse. Why would you buy a Z6 for Photography? You might as well go m4/3 if you want that kind of MP count. Hell of a lot more convenient. That is a reason the Panny GH5, EM1 mk II is so popular.

  Here's the info about the Z6 that you must not know or acknowledge:

- The Z6 has better CS then the GH5

- The Z6 has full frame sensor readout at 4K - 10 bit 

- The Z6 will do RAW Pro Res soon

- The Z6 had AF that actually works unlike the GH5

- The Z6 has EYE AF

- The Z6 has a ton of Nikon glass you can use and the same with cine glass you can rent.

I never said I bought the Z6 for photography.  

The Z6 actually destroys the GH5 for photography all the way around.  What m4/3 camera can touch the Z6 for video or photography? 

I am open to the P4K and S1 as other options for video and will wait and see. That means I'm not tied to Nikon unless I want to be. I do have the Z6 so I am in the game. Do you own a Sony A7 series camera? It's helps if you do because then we would understand why you defend bad CS from Sony.

Sony hit a home-run with the A7III because it was the right time behind the GH5 and before the P4K.  The same Nikon that you claim is dying is the ONE company that put out a full frame mirror-less camera with 4K full sensor read out with 10 bit. Not Sony, not Canon but Nikon. 

"That is a reason the Panny GH5, EM1 mk II is so popular." <<< These cameras aren't that popular in 2019. The market has changed and people are waiting and using what they have. 

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well it is out of my Budget as they say, but sure leaning toward Video I would wait the the Panasonic S1H. But if I was into photography I would get the A7 mk IV. Why not , way cheaper than any sort of MF camera is overall cost wise, and most are not by Any means FF MF. Not counting now that Sony has just about any kind of lens you need now, and they all have the latest tech.

I think the silent shutter is a bigger deal than most people think, at least to what I like to do photography wise. It is not a groundbreaking camera Video wise for sure, but the eye focus in video, now that can be really pretty huge.

You seem to push Sony for photography but you called that out as the shits and that no one does that. That the EOSHD was for videographers. It's ok I'm just trying to remember your comments about photography and say the Nikon Z6. 

CS in photography is mega important in everyones book. Sony is good or great at PR and you seem to have jump in all the way. PR is great and other companies are lacking at it but Sony PR has become paying YouTube influencers to promote half truths while flat out lying about Nikon and Canon so Joe public sways his opinion just based on a talking Sony You Tube review. 

Sony pushed it's gamma and curves way up past the point of colors being unbalanced all for the purpose of controlling low light and de-noising it's image. 

Doesn't silent shutter introduce rolling shutter for photography? 

Video AF tracking works great on Canon and Nikon and EYE AF for video is another gimmick. Are you telling me your focus when using video is so locked on that we need EYE AF for video? C'mon.  

AF video tracking has been solid for a while except for the GH5.  

36 minutes ago, nickname said:

I do. He slaps a film convert preset on them that makes all colors orange and thinks it looks cinematic in slow motion. Well, it doesn't and it looks awful. 

This.

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

There are a few on here, a very few, me included that think most of this new stuff is more of a sort of a joke CS wise and a step backwards I think. 

If the new stuff is a joke CS wise then why are you tying your horse to Sony? 

Geoff - you posted two of the crappiest YouTubers of all time.  

21 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I will be the first to admit that a 1DC is a Really serious camera both photo and video wise. I don't know if it is from compression or whatever, they do not look right to me.

I will agree that Canon CS has always been geared to facial CS. But they have went from a orangish to a redish CS and I really not a fan of the new CS. It is getting cartoonish like an Olympus is at times.

And  have owned several Ferrari's and they were not that Red of a Red. It just isn't accurate. Now Maybe on an Apple screen it is perfect, who knows. I just re calibrated my Monitor 2 days ago. So YMMV.

Red is that Red. 

The 1DC images might be oversaturated but nothing plastic about how those faces look. You could defiantly grade them to your liking but good accurate color is just that. Take is talk and posting images that show Sony color is up to par with Nikon and Canon is another thing. 

We can do the all day long and Sony would come in third place out of Canon, Nikon and Sony. And I like Canon color over Nikon from what I've seen. 

Sony A7's color sucks ass all day long.  You can't argue with the picture Andrew posted and if you've used a Sony you know this is true.  

Nikon CS and Canon CS are the top companies right now and Sony doesn't have a clue or they would have fixed it. 

Sonly pushes it's color curves around and they disrupt the color balance in a picture.  With Sony you have a small window to get color correct if at all. This is why you have colors that are just off in Sony images. 

If you get good skin tones with Sony something else will be off. The blue sky, brown woodwork or blue jeans will be off. 

And the EOS-R doesn't speak for Canon because that camera is falling in line to what Canon is not the other way around. 

Canon or Nikon shooters are not switching to the A7RIV - they will all wait and see what their brand is doing. 

14 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

At this point, any camera that can do internal/external raw and have variable NDs inside will be worth the money. 

Yes, a lot of people use mirrorless cameras because they are cheaper and more affordable (and there are a ton of options for those users). But I also think there are plenty of people who would buy an S1H-sized camera for $6k+ if it included internal raw, internal NDs, timecode out, and all the nice EVA-1 codecs.

No need to cannibalize other cameras - just charge more and they both make money no matter which one people buy. I'm guessing you would see a lot of independent doc filmmakers, journalists, traveling cinematographers, etc picking up the mirrorless-sized version. I know I would personally love this. 

 

That camera you describe does not exist even at $6k in a smaller form factor like the Z6 or S1, S1H.  

I like the Atomos / Nikon combination if the team up helps us get RAW 4K. 

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Did they? Could have fooled me. I don't think they said anything as specific... They just announced it, then fucked off.

Atomos said NAB "but"...

Do you think we Nikon Z6 owner jumped to soon to Nikon?  I haven't looked up the S1 limitations but Nikon RAW could be great when it comes out. 

Is it worth jumping over to the S1 ?  

It would be great to get your opinion on this.

21 minutes ago, Geoff CB said:

In regards to the future RAW a huge problem with it's future is that the Ninja V has horrible audio. Seen tests and it's very bad. So to get RAW with decent audio when it's available you will have to pony up for a $1500 Shogun 7. 

 Audio would be picked up just like you would for the Z6. Like most you have a separate audio set up. 

No need for the $1500 Shogun 7

Just now, webrunner5 said:

Because it does not cover a FF sensor. It is a s35 lens.

Well then FF cine lens with E mount then. Wire crappy thing solved. 

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

In crop mode yeah.

A lot of money to spend just to get mechanical focus.

Do you know that older lenses do exist, right?!

This was meant for the wire comments and to show cine lens on the Z.  

Why do we have to use crop mode for the Fujinon MK18-55mm T2.9 Lens?

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Focus by wire doesn't have to suck, if only they got the programming right. EF lenses don't have hard stops either. The mechanical feel is very good in the clutch-mode Olympus lenses.

Can't we use Fujinon MK18-55mm T2.9 Lens (Sony E Mount) lens on the Z6 with the E mount  adaptor?

22 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh the Sony Venice is really taking off IF you can  afford it. The big reason is the Venice CS, but the main kicker is the Sensor Head unscrews and you  can just mount the Sensor Block anywhere you want. So it can get in really tight spaces because of it. Not sure the cord length, like 6 feet or more I think.Have no clue why others haven't done it before? Lenses I have no clue.

I think the Sony A7s mk III is going to be a lot like the Panny S1H. Probably Raw, 6K, heck maybe 8K. It will be ground breaking I bet.

I also think it will be like the S1H.  Based on today's announced A7RIV I think Sony is the new Canon on holding back specs. The A7S IV will be like the S1H and 8K but it will not be 10 bit or RAW. This is what Sony does these days. Not that it couldn't have 10 bit or RAW but Sony wound give us that.

I have to rewatch this again to see if they are any clearer about a date.  This is a great video about Nikon RAW if you haven't seen it. 

https://livestream.com/accounts/22293757/events/8598177/videos/189750242

11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

"Nikon Z6 filmmaker's kit is first camera to shoot 12bit RAW"

"When?"

"Later this year........... Proooobably"

"So is it available to buy now"

"ABSOLUTELY! ON DEALER'S SHELVES NOW!!"

This is an interesting thread.

Have you reached out to Atomos or Nikon with your connections?

35 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Did they? Could have fooled me. I don't think they said anything as specific... They just announced it, then fucked off.

Atomos said NAB "but"...

This was from an interview: At the 2:43 mark.

No one from Nikon owes anyone anything at all. People don't own a Nikon Z camera but still comment and ask for cine specs in the Z series for under $2K.

Blackmagic is great but with the P4K announcement we still have to wait weeks or months for delivery. 

Nikon has always said summer / later this year for the 12 bit RAW video update. 

The Eye AF was the improvement they promised and this next one will be the same. 

It's tough to wait but it will happen.  

I specific firmware release date would help.

Still 100Mbps ? Wow.  Talking about holding back.

Here's Sony's problem. By making the S and R series, what happens when the A7SIII or A7SIV has to be so great at video (market specs) that the stills photography functions now become better then the A7RIII series?  

This is why the A7R IV was announced first. 

10 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but none of them are great when using video. That is even the problem with EF Lenses. Great for Photos, sucks ass for video. The EF-S lenses are better for video.

I've seen great results. What's the sucks ass part.............please explain.

18 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Isn't the A7III 6K right now, down sampling to 4K?? Same with the A6500??

Yeah it is but output at 6K is an issue with heat and data. We can't get 4K 30fps full sensor readout on a A7 series Sony.  If they can't get this right then 8K will have the same flaws as their 4K does.