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51 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

That is because Nikon doesn't know as much about video as well as Panasonic does. Pretty simple. Panasonic has been making Broadcast Cine stuff for hell 30 years, or more. Mostly 1/2" sensor 3 CCD stuff in the early years. Way cheaper price than Sony, Ikegami was charging.

Yeah Nikon made like VHS type consumer video camcorders for years long time ago, I had a couple. They had really good lenses on them. They got the job done, but they were not as good as Sony Camcorders, really nothing was at the time was as good to be honest. But hey you gets what you pay for.

Done as much or knows as much are two different things. 

The photography side from sensor on DSLR and smaller cameras, Nikon does know very well.

- The Z6 and S1 video footage looks almost identical. Until someone shows me footage to prove that's not true then it's just lip service.

- Nikon knows enough to be the first full frame camera to do 10 bit 4K external.  That's before Panasonic and Sony and Canon.

- I'm all ears and eyes to see that the S1 is better then the Z6. 

- 12 bit RAW Pro Res is coming from Nikon.

So not sure what your point is. Nikon stepped up and delivered not only great spec'd video but great looking video quality.

Nikon knows video now don't they? 

5 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Its not a sensor lock or any hardware restriction, it's a "legal" contractual restriction. Sony believes that the industry value of their sensor is higher, the more feature liscensing modes you purchase. Its a modular sales contract. 

In theory, if you want to buy a Sony sensor for a photo camera "only" with no video use modes at all,...that sensor will be cheaper than if you purchased 10bit 4k 60p add on. That same sensor liscensing will now cost you more. (Brcause its industry value is now higher in Sony's eyes) 

You don't know that and are guessing at best.

The S1 and Z6 share the sam sensor.  Look at the footage from both cameras. 

27 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

I know two people that are in the sensor industry. One of them has purchased sensors from Sony for his company. He is under NDA but he has told me that this is how Sony sensor liscensing works. Its not "buy a sensor and get everything" deal. You buy the sensor and license what features you want. If you pay for and licence 8bit 30p and you turn around enable 10bit 60p....you get sued! Your license is specific and affects the price you pay.

On the IMX410....we dont know if its that sensor! Why?....because that sensor has dual pixel phase detect architecture! That sensor requires pixel masking...that Panasonic says they HATE doing and wont do on a Panny camera. (Part of their excuse as to why the "prefer" contrast detect AF...even though every moden camera makes the dead pixels on every sensor today)

Maybe it is a IMX410 variant with the dual photosite grid removed in the die. We will never know untill Tech Insights x-rays it.

The HILARIOUS thing is that every year at NAB, the Panasonic booth continues to say that the GH5 and GH5-S are "Our sensors that are made by Panasonic"....yeah right! Nikon says this too!

Why do camera companies HATE admitting they are buying common Sony sensors for their cameras? Is it really THAT embarassing?

Didn't Nikon say Sony specially built the sensor that the Z series are using ? 

The agreement part between Nikon and Sony might be wide one also. The companies share some tech but Nikon wouldn't let Sony call the shots either.  Ye I'm sure Nikon paid a price for the Sony sensors but it might not be limited like you think it is.  

Getting 10bit 4K is not limited controlled by the sensor out put or unlocked like you claim. Taking full advantage of a sensor like Nikon is doing with Atomos doesn't seem like it's restricted by the type of license they bought.  This is just my take on this. 

2 minutes ago, androidlad said:

They are all based on IMX410, but not all of them uses the particular CQK SKU. The CQK one does not have PDAF mask.

What's the CQK part?

16 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Nikon didnt catch Sony off guard. Nikon Z6 is a Sony IMX410. When Nikon purchased the sensor, they would have paid for the 10bit liscensing cost in the contract of sale. When you buy a Sony sensor, the functions you get are negotiated in the contract. So 8bit 4k 30p = $$ AND 8bit 4k 60p = $$$ and if you liscense 4k, 60p 10bit, your cost is $$$$$. The chip cost is higher as you add higher feature liscenses from Sony.

The big question is: Did Panny go with an IMX410 for the S1?  Or did they avoid Sony complety and go with Samsung?

If Panny went with another sensor supplier than Sony was TRULY in the dark over what the S1 and S1H were going to have. If Panny DID buy Sony, than Sony was 100% aware of what Panny was building maybe a year ago or longer.

Rumor has it the S1 does use the IMX410.

https://www.l-rumors.com/the-panasonic-s1-probably-uses-the-new-sony-imx410-sensor/

Sony built the Nikon sensor to Nikons design specs. 

The rest of the Z6 specs had nothing to do with Sony, - body design, heat displacement,  IBIS, color science, processor, and 144 Mbps.  You make it sound like Sony is calling the sots.  

We don't know how the camera industry works behind the scenes. You don't know what Nikon negotiated with Sony and how it worked. That's what Nikon and Sony work with NDA's

IMX410CQK

These cameras  Sony A7 III, Panasonic Lumix DC-S1, Nikon Z6,  and Sigma fp  use the IMX410CQK sensor. 

IMX410CQK - Spec PDF

IMX410CQK_Flyer.pdf

4 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

They found space in an E-mount camera for one already.

They may say that, but are they going to play a numbers game for no benefit to end user... crap 8K, bigger numbers on the box, all about specs... Or are they going to deliver a proper filmmaker's tool instead?

Maybe they Weill surprise us. I think they will do crap 8K and they can say they were the first to do it. 

I ask this before:

How does the S1 compare to the Z6 in pure cine video quality?  Do you still have your Z6?

And this Is one reason the A7SIII is delayed. 

How long before Sony takes down his video?

And to be fair to Sony if you select 'higher heat level" or whatever that is, it actually makes a big difference. The A7 III would have hit the 30 min record mark.

You have to think Panasonic or Nikon surprised Sony with video specs they produce with the Z6 and S1.

Nikon has more to 144 Mbps, 4K 30fps no crop, 12bit RAW external, better IBIS and upgrade in XQD card.

The S1 went even further internally. 

That's seems to make the most sense for the delay. Sony was caught off guard and they said the A7SIII would be better then everyone expected. 

Nikon just released firmware update 2.01 for the Z6.

Nice tweaks and I'll go on record to say the AF and EYE AF are at the Sony level now. 

(My honest take on this is Nikon should have had the Z6 at this level at launch. I am almost positive the Z6 had focus plane issues that weren't working right when the camera was released. I'm not a tech guy but it was just off.  This was fixed in the last version and 2.01 just went further with the tweaking.)

For all the Z6 owners what's your take?

11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh I was never that big time. I did local commercials and spots for TV. Carry over from my ENG work.  Had a lot of contacts in the "business".  So I guess I was like you. Chief, cook, and bottle washer. It was Super big money even for used stuff. We are talking 100K cameras new then. Miller tripods, fluid heads cost 1000's used. Only thing worth having at the time.

All that footage is Long gone. Like I said some of that stuff my daughter still has in California. 720i was the best she has yet I guess of it. It's a joke now, but with skill it can be pretty good. It was the cats ass at the time. Tube and CCD stuff, tape decks and all. I guess she still keeps it because it sent her through 8 years of Collage. Made a Lot of money with it. I used her as a actor in some of it. It was a ball buster to do to be honest. Like I have said on here 100 times, Video Is Hard. Photo is a walk in the park compared to it.

Video is hard.  Lol

38 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I spent that much and more 35 years ago every year doing video. Sounds to me you are pretty clueless about this craft. Hell that is hardly 2 great Tripod setups in this day and age. I guess you rent that shit also. I thought you were a director? Why would a Director rent anything. Isn't that what a Producer does?

As I said before when I direct a job I get the whole job. My production, my production insurance. I'm hands on.  I'm also the creative on all my jobs. 

How is this clueless about this craft? 

On smaller gigs I handle the above and am the DP.  I also edit and grade my work. 

Hey send us some of your work it would be great to see your IMBD.

38 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Sounds to me you are pretty clueless about this craft. 

I'm here to learn as much as I can.  I love directing, creative, editing, cinematography and photography.

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

If you are serious about this stuff you Own Cine Glass. The average person on here is just a Hobbyist. People that make a living doing this stuff are the opposite of the average person on here. They probably have WAY more money tied up in 3 to 5 lenses than people ever thought about camera wise.

So yeah the GH5 is just Chump Change compared to the rest of the stuff they own or need. If normal lenses were that good all these Other company's would be out of business.

They don't have ANY matter. They are a Plastic Blob. I think they are close to the worse photos I have ever seen. And I have seen a lot trust me.

They don't look plastic. They look better then Sony color and skin tone. Seriously take a phone picture of you computer screen because you must have the settings jacked up. 

Just now, webrunner5 said:

That tells me all I need to know about you then. Grats.

And what does that tell you about me? 

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

If you are serious about this stuff you Own Cine Glass. The average person on here is just a Hobbyist. People that make a living doing this stuff are the opposite of the average person on here. They probably have WAY more money tied up in 3 to 5 lenses than people ever thought about camera wise.

So yeah the GH5 is just Chump Change compared to the rest of the stuff they own or need. If normal lenses were that good all these Other company's would be out of business.

As I've said before when I needed I've rented the RED with 40K value in cine glass and the full package with a DP.  You can keep making old man comments about who and what people are on these boards but you don't have a clue. Go hand out on the cine pro forum and let us hobbyist do our thing. 

And I'll rent gear all day long before I event 30K in glass or 30K on a RED or other set up.

On 7/16/2019 at 9:44 AM, webrunner5 said:

Good and great is a Big difference.

You said those lenses "suck ass for video".  

Suck ass is not close to good or great is it.  How much cine manual glass do you see on the GH5 or P4K? It's defiantly not the majority.  

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah that is the stupid ass photos I was talking about. You are crazier than I thought if you think that stuff is even piss poor, let alone good.

Dude you said a few weeks ago your monitor was just recalibrated.  

Instead of quoting Jethro with "it sucks ass". Tell us why the color is off and stop using the words too dark and moody.  This board is suppose to have discussions and it seems 'sucks ass" in not a very cinematic was to express how good or bad something is. 

Oh and also read the comments from that link and the other EOSH posters that disagree with you.  You also a Nikon hater and not a photographer.

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah that is the stupid ass photos I was talking about. You are crazier than I thought if you think that stuff is even piss poor, let alone good.

And to be clear I never said the photo's had amazing subject matter or were perfect photo's but the color is not off and not like Sony and not wrong. 

On 7/29/2019 at 3:46 PM, webrunner5 said:

Jesus the detail in faces is just a blob. Plastic fantastic. Dark as heck to boot. Maybe that was shot by the guy that did that stupid dark as hell mini series. Game of Thrones.

 

What link are you commenting on? 

This one ? https://alikgriffin.com/nikon-50mm-f1-8-s-lens-review-sample-photos/

The color and color photo's are on target. You're monitor or flat panel tv color is off or your a Nikon hater like previously. 

25 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

It's funny. Zillions of people are waiting and waiting for the A7S-III. Its like Charlie Brown in his field waiting for the Great Pumpkin!

The A7S-III is HERE and it's right under everybody'nose!

It has:

Full frame sensor (Very likely Sony Exmor)

6k full pixel readout to 4k scaling

14+ stops of dynamic range

10bit 4:2:2 4k with clean HDMI out

4k 30p 4:2:2 full frame no time limit internal recording.

4k 60p in "Hollywood" Cine super35 frame size.

Full size HDMI with 4k raw on the way.

Waveform scopes

Huge battery

Varicam color science....so delicious!!!

NO OVERHEATING!

Boom!.....that's 99% of what we wanted in the A7S-III....yet nobody is paying any attention to the S1 yet. (Only some people)  The S1 should be the industry talk of the town but too many people seem to be unaware of it still.

Sony is going to target the S1, not the S1H. I dont know if they can match the S1 using their tiny A7 bodies but lets see how far they go. 

S1H?....haha...Sony wont touch it! With 6k raw, Its going to be WAY over spec'd for Sony to even attempt to try. They dont have the bawls and XDCAM + Sony internal politics will never allow Alpha the chance.

 

Panasonic doesn't have the You Tube influencers to make a splash yet.  It's all shifting though and Andrew is doping his part. 

You Tube reviewers need to do a deep dive and show what the S1can do against the RED or Arri. Cine industry takes a while to catch up. 

When the S1 and S1H are used in higher profile products the truth will come out. People are wait to make the move to Panasonic with the S1 or S1H.  How can you buy the S1 when you don't know what the S1H gives you. 

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

Cell phones use variable frame rates to do it, as well as other compromises. That would not be acceptable on a proper camera. Comparing them is apples to potatoes. Cellphone processor development, especially the ISP portion, is funded by the sales volume those items have. Proper cameras have nowhere close to the same sales volume, so it is far more onerous to make the sort of investment necessary for constant improvement.

Sure, you could make a camera that had a cellphone processor in it, but it would shoot cell phone video, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone here would be screaming outrage if a camera did that.

The delay is due to the need for higher specs, such as 4K60p, and the inability of the current Bionz X to deliver that in a hybrid body. They needed to wait because the existence of Panasonic's latest cameras with their 4K60p specs meant that the a7SIII would not be competitive if it did not have that spec, since it's selling point is that it is a video centric camera. They have to have specs that at a minimum match Panasonic or the camera will be a commercial failure.

Not rocket science dude.

You keep saying it's the processor but it's more then that. Nikon and Panasonic upped the video game with 10 bit external and internal and this is an issue with Sony's body style and small form factor and overheating. 

Sony could go with internal or external 10 bit and if they could do either no one would be upset if 4K60 wasn't part of the A7SIII.  it's called getting into the game. So the processor is one part of the story and what Panasonic and Nikon did is the other.

And both Nikon and Panasonic are rumored to have the same sensor as the A7III, at least the Z6 is. So given that information it only make Sony look bad for not being to deliver. Remember you said all the other companies don't just design their own processors and that it takes years.

You really need to say you work for Sony or that your just taking wild guesses at what they delays are with Sony.  

You have commented that body size of the A7SIII is not the issue so that means you think it's going to be the same size as the current A7III. Sony cameras still have overheating issues that no one else has.

Everyone on here has said Sony has to have specs that match Panasonics but you. Sony won't match Panasonic because they have better AF. 

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

Sure, you could make a camera that had a cellphone processor in it, but it would shoot cell phone video, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone here would be screaming outrage if a camera did that.

 

Dude you don't know what your talking about. Video Hummus know 100x more then the three books you posted. 

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Its funny. These BBC and Netflix requirements are somwhat silly. They want content at these specs but its impossible to even DELIVER that same content at even 1/4 of what they are asking for! I have been working at the same global media company for 23 years now. (Our social media policy strictly forbids me to say the name as I'm not an offical representative...I will just say that we are showing a ton of sharks on your TV right now)

We also have very high deliverable standards too from our vendors. The problem is that we broadcast in 1080 at 12-14 mbps. Cable affiliates take tha in and turn arround and recompress us to 8mbps for their cable systems and even lower if you have DirecTV. There goes all that high quality 4k standard! It's all WASTED on delivery!

Netflix gave the EVA1 clearance. The S1 matches the EVA1 in DR and completely destroys the EVA1 in signal to noise ratio! Aside for rolling shutter, the S1 is phenominal in VLog.

Sounds like a good gig.  

With Netflix the delivery is ONLINE and at high speed connections. So Netflix has higher delivery quality then the compression chain thru cable or direct tv.  This is a good thing.

I deliver my spots thru Extreme Reach to NBC and CBS the standards are high. 

DVD was always better then viewing the broadcast version and the same with BlueRay.  I think the traditional networks want content close to the source for a reason. 

Netflix and the networks now are broadcasting online and what's delivered will only get better.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I-Frame capable...

So an ALL-I codec then?

If so, 240MBit is pushing it a bit.

10bit LOG in 150Mbit Long-GOP would probably look better.

Yes correct the 10bit codec on the S1 is same as EVA1 offers... However the EVA also has an ALL-I option I believe.

Netflix probably want hassle free editing and workflow, without computational overhead of a Long GOP codec.

Netflix wants timecode and proof it was shot to it's standard. This disqualifies many cameras.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I-Frame capable...

So an ALL-I codec then?

If so, 240MBit is pushing it a bit.

10bit LOG in 150Mbit Long-GOP would probably look better.

Yes correct the 10bit codec on the S1 is same as EVA1 offers... However the EVA also has an ALL-I option I believe.

Netflix probably want hassle free editing and workflow, without computational overhead of a Long GOP codec.

Andrew you have or had the Z6. How does the S1 and Z6 compare? 

If the time becomes right and depending on 12 Bit Raw from Nikon, I will be getting the S1. 

2 hours ago, Mokara said:

Delays in getting the new ISP ready have likely led to delays in these cameras as well, since Sony wants their flagships to have competitive video included, especially the a7SIII. Body size and shape has nothing to do with it. Nor does "deliberate crippling" and "holding back". The tech they have available at the moment simply can't do what you want.

 

You are 100% wrong. "have likely led to delays" is a sly way of making people read your opinion as fact.

Nikon and Panasonic have pushed video capabilities on the Z6 and S1 way above what Sony has given us.  Body size for the Sony has to change because of past heat issues.  If Nikon and Panasonic can give us new better cameras then no excuses for Sony.  

Sony making processors years and years before they hit the streets is what big companies like Sony do. Sony's cine line up would also benefit from smaller faster processors. Panasonic said the S1 had been in development for years and the idea and move toward full frame was like 6 years ago. 

No one really knows what Sony delayed the A7SIII but at least to the public it's delayed or long over due.  I'm even very curious about what the A7SIII will be and how far they will push it.

If what you say was true then the A7SIII might be 4 months away or 2 years away from hitting the streets. That's not how it works. 

Sony know how to make great cine cameras and processors, they just have to decide what to please and how to make it in a smaller form factor. 

How long before the P4K was released did the first announcement happen? 

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Phones, especially Apple phones get updates hell nearly every 2 weeks. You don't think they don't improve things, add new features with the updates? Only "real"cameras cameras do? And I think camera manufacturers Had better bring out new models every year now or they are toast. Stuff changes big time now in a year.

I never said iPhone and smartphones don't make improvements or add new features. I never said either thing.

2 hours ago, Elias said:

Here's one more thing that's needed: Depth Information.

It amazes me that I get depth information from an iPhone but can't get it from my $3,000-dollar DSLR or Mirrorless cameras.

Camera manufacturers in general should get on the depth-information bandwagon because it simply is *very* useful and something that cellphones are getting very good at.

From a photographer's perspective it allows us to re-light a photo *after* it has been captured, which I use creatively to great effect on my iPhone.

And from a cinematographer's perspective it can aid on doing green-screen effects *without* a green screen.

Computational photography can be very useful in the DSLR/Mirrorless market, but it seems that camera manufacturers are lacking people with vision on where to drive the industry forward.

And btw, I actually have done a couple of jobs using my iPhone which I'd rather have done otherwise on my large camera bodies with larger sensors, which is a great example of why cellphones are eating away slowly on camera sales. The camera manufacturer dinosaurs have to wake up or die.

iPhone has to talk about processor power. Cameras talk about sensor size. The life cycle to market is also different. 

Camera makers are changing with firmware updates and getting more from a camera instead of just bringing out a new model.

The original processor comment that was made was not correct about Sony.

1 hour ago, Mokara said:

The reason is that those specs are determined in hardware, specifically by the ISP used in the Bionz X processor. They have not upgraded that since about 2014, that is why specs have not upgraded. There is no mystery here. They can't "just do it", and they are not "holding stuff back". Magic does not exist in the real world, waving wands and doing wishful thinking will not make stuff that is not there magically appear.

That will be the case until they introduce a new processor with an upgraded ISP. Basically a redesign of the entire processor. That is not realistic in the camera industry on a regular basis because they don't sell enough units to be constantly redesigning the processor like Intel or AMD do, and that is the only way specs will go up. That is why Sony specs have "stagnated" for so many years. It is the exact same reason why Canon took so long to implement hardware 4K in consumer cameras. In their case the processors they had eventually were capable of doing 4K, but not without active cooling, which was not practical on a stills camera. Hence no 4K for the longest while. But they were not "holding tech back" or "being conservative", they simply could not do it with the processors at the time.

You are not going to see an improvement in video specs until they introduce a new processor. That may happen with the a9II and a7SIII, perhaps even the rumored a7000 (although I am dubious about that particular one's chances). In fact, this may well be the reason for the delay in introducing the a7SIII, namely that the processor was not quite ready yet and they did not want to release the camera with the lower specs that their current cameras have.

Nikon introduced a new processor with the Z6 and Panasonic with the S1.

You don't think Sony can create and release a new processor since 2014? That's 5 1/2 years. In camera time that an incredible amount of time. 

Sony has it's cine line to learn from and I'm not buying what your selling. Sony has the resources to produce a new processor since 2014 and they knew the day would come. The S1, Z6 have pushed video quality and specs beyond what Sony currently offers. By the time Sony does update the processor and specs the S2 and next Z video geared cameras will be released. 

It's not as hard as you described to create and release new processors. In fact I would say Sony already has built the next two processors they would use but are reluctant to change body size and style. 

It's simple: Sony had a road map that kept the current A7III style body and hardware on the market thru 2020-21 and that's why they got caught sleeping.  Sony also said they didn't want to make the A7 line up into a bigger body style when they had overheating issues. They basically said this is mirrorless and not DSLR. 

On 7/27/2019 at 12:46 PM, Media Kat said:

No doubt regarding Youtube being an advertising platform...but the point I made earlier, aren't these same influencers also paid or flown all over the world when Canon, Nikon and Panasonic release new cameras? 

The difference is Canon and Nikon and Panasonic influencers are not negative and dishonest about other brands. Sony influencers do reviews about Nikon and Canon and Panasonic and they flat out lie about these brands. Flat out. And it's on You Tube for all to see. The compared the Z6 and S1 to the A7III and they lie even when the results on screen show the S1 and Z6 are better then the A7III.

39 minutes ago, Media Kat said:

I do have E lenses and I'm hoping the A7S3 has 10 bit just because everyone says it should, though I honestly do not understand the benefits. How much of a difference does it really make? I've read it really comes into play with doing green screen and heavy color grading. Is this true? What other scenarios will it be useful?

It makes a difference because with 10bit unlocks more data in the video file. Sony has been maxed out at 100 Mbps while Nikon is at 144Mbps and 12 bit RAW will be higher. 

More data goes a long way for video. 

It's not all for heavy grading or for not having banding in the sky. More data gives you better left to high panning, better sensor read out, etc.

This is what you see in the S1 and Z6 video. 

7 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Sorry, that was aimed at the person that clearly didn't.

Yikes at the $7K.

In the UK, the used price is currently equivalent to $3K, pre haggle

With the way the pound is devaluing as well it wouldn't surprise me to see that get to $2.5K post October 31st.

My bad.