A_Urquhart

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

So the 4K/60P in RAW only goes to 10 seconds to the best CFast 2.0 and Samsung T5, so looks like we'll have to wait for BMRAW to get longer record times in that. The data rates are just too big for the current media in DNG.

You can record 4k60p in RAW on the Pocket4k with no problems. You just need to use 3:1 or 4:1 RAW, so no need to wait for BRAW (another compressed RAW format).

I really don't know anyone who needs uncompressed RAW though. The Red Weapon doesn't do uncompressed RAW at all, only compressed at 2:1 and up. Is there anyone here that would say the Weapon is not good enough for them?

IF the Pocket4K's USB port is USB3.1 Gen 2, then maybe we'll see an external drive like an NMVE drive, be able to record uncompressed but again, you really don't need it.

Generally, you need two SSD's working as a RAID configuration to get uncompressed RAW. The Convergent Design Odyssey can only record uncompressed RAW CDNG  at 4K60p when there are SSD's in both slots and your files end up needing to be merged afterwards. Wile it's not technically a RAID config, it does send every second frame to the second SSD as the data rates are just too high for a single SSD to handle. Same as Ursa Mini Pro, you need two CFast Cards in the camera for Uncompressed at 60p

 

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

These cameras are or should be designed to be operated for a single shooter at any rate or some other doesn't mean much else : ) We are in 4Q 2018... : -)

Maybe 2018 has made people soft. I don't know when it started that people had to have Autofocus and IBIS to be able to shoot on their own. Remember the Canon 5D that started this whole DSLR video revolution, it didn't have usable AF in video mode or IBIS and we all shot fine with that.

15 minutes ago, Chrad said:

The shutter can't be at 180, but you can fine tune it till the flicker disappears with the Synchro Scan feature.

I'm no expert on the GH5 (never used it) but yes, I think the synchro scan feature would just adjust the shutter speed in finer increments than usual to find one that works with the lights you are using. So yeah, your shutter would not be at 180 anymore.

3 hours ago, CaptainHook said:

The overexposed super saturated LEDs are clipping the gamut. This will happen with Gen 4 on 4.6K too. You can reduce the issue by soft clipping the gamut using the colour space transform Resolve FX plugin. Here I am using the Broadcast gamut because the Pocket 4K option isn't in the colour space transform plugin at this time but they are actually the same gamut/primaries anyway.



Without soft clipping the gamut:

Thanks Captain Hook, that looks much better.

2 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Sorry about the detour then...

Can the GH5 shoot 60p at 180 with no flicker?

 

Not in a 50hz country.

2 hours ago, Slothorp said:

Last test : 
 

 

Hmmm, not liking the look of that. 

I haven't done any shooting into red lights at night but will have to test it out tonight. If it's a common P4K issue, hopefully it can be fixed with firmware.

1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

Hi Turbo, I too would love to move over to BMC user but while I am registered there, have never been given permission to post and have contacted the mods countless times but no-one seems to be home.

Looking forward to a forum that isn't run by a Nazi. Andrew closed the topic I created directing arguments between the GH5 and Pocket4k to another thread. It's his way or the highway here at EOSHD! ?

 

7 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Well then I jumped the gun with my response, sorry about that.

If 60p at 216 works for you, crack on. Personally I’d stick to 50p and have more flexibility, both while shooting and in the edit. 

No worries and for most scenarios, I completely agree that 50p is a safer option.

I love how when you toggle the HFR function on the camera, the shutter angles all change to reflect the project and HFR speed you have set.

5 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Ah - but you edited you post while I was replying haha. 

I did, but I didn't change anything that you referred too. I stated 216 degrees from the start. Never edited that.

4 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Beacuse then you limit all your clips to slowmo only. If you want some realtime or do a warp it will look like a porly made stop motion. 

 

Yes, shooting at 50p gives you more flexibility in post but if you know what you are trying to achieve when you are shooting, 60p is a viable option and can be used without flicker if need be.

3 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Mostly, but it’s more of a ‘only use multiples of project frame rate exclusively’.  

The shutter angle/speed introduces or reduces motion blur. So if you shot at 60fps with 90deg you’d also loose (hide) the flicker. In that scenario though, you won’t have sharp slowmo which mean ugly footage. 

I actually read for nicer slow motion, you should use more than 180deg. The sharper the better. 

Motion blur at real time allows the footage to look realistic, but slow motion by nature is not realistic and so shouldn’t live by the 180 rule. 

But the 216 degree shutter angle I suggested IS more than 180degrees. I wouldn't suggest shooting slow at 90 degrees.

13 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Right. You could also shoot at 30p with that shutter angle and the lights won’t flicker. I still wouldn’t do it though haha. 

Why is that? Do you only use 180 degree shutter exclusively?

Not sure why you would want to shoot 30fps though. If you wanted a very slight slowmo effect you could shoot at 33fps which eliminates flicker at 180 degrees with LED's and incandescent. A bit of rolling flicker with Flouro's though at 33fps and 180 degree but this is fixable by choosing 237.6 degrees

When shooting 60p, it is more for slow and a shutter angle of 216 is perfectly acceptable. 

12 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

To everyone who asked me why they shouldn’t shoot 60fps (or 120) for a 25p project. This is why. Everything is so flickery. 

I live in a 50hz country (Australia) and just did a test here at home. Setting the HFR frame rate on the Pocket4k to 60p (but keeping the project rate at 25p) does result in flicker at 180degree shutter as would be expected. But, If you change the shutter to 216 degrees, the flicker goes away. Just tested this with a flouro tube, domestic LED's and incandescent bulb and no flicker with any of them.

1 minute ago, deezid said:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lYduNOHyHSZj_SZPlRy96GJdZUFj8L6Z

A short dynamic range comparison by @tidefilm
Matched the source files (the shadows of the GH5s are completely desaturated) and added a bit of blur to take away the edge.

Please download the file. The Pocket 4K smokes the GH5s in this test, it's not even fair. Not only no sharpening but also way cleaner. The GH5s shows some horizontal noise patterns (was shot at 25p)

Good find. Yes, the lack of sharpening on the Pocket is another huge plus. I love the smoothness of the image while at the same time not lacking detail at all.

1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said:

Do you work for Blackmagic?

And isn't it my job to moderate the forum?

Nope, I don't work for Blackmagic. I just own their camera and want to discuss it with people and share experiences but the constant arguments comparing it to other cameras is getting tiring.

I suppose it is your job, I just made it a little easier for you. It's OK, you don't have to thank me ? 

6 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

Its not better than P4K only because the 2 simply shouldn't be compared. The GH5 is a video camera and the P4K is a cinema camera. This is another apples to oranges comparison..

I'd go one further and say the GH5 is a stills camera with great video (Hybrid camera really) while the Pocket4k is a dedicated video/cinema camera but same, same.....

Just now, Turboguard said:

Wow, this tread is like, I don’t even know what to say. At least people are civilized over at BMCuser, so will do the rest of my P4K chat over there and people can keep there GH5 chats here.

. Ciao

Hi Turbo, I too would love to move over to BMC user but while I am registered there, have never been given permission to post and have contacted the mods countless times but no-one seems to be home.

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Sure the codec will make it's mark on all of the above (apart from sensor size and optics).

But honestly, there's a reason most Alexa shoots are ProRes, not raw. Because the image quality gain is minor (in terms of the end result)

You were are big advocate for speed boosters and how they closed the gap on MFT vs Full frame. I really think the sensor size with a speed booster is a non issue and actually is a huge bonus over FF unless you need fast AF.

In terms of Alexa shoots being ProRes, good DP's have good Gaffers and good budgets. They can control light much easier than solo shooters so don't really need the benefits of RAW most of the time. Yes, image quality is not that different but flexibility in post is.

Also, many (not all) Alexa shoots shoot ProRes444 which is a 12bit codec so doesn't compare to the 10bit codecs now found in mirrorless cameras like the GH or X-T3.

So, rather than fill the Pocket4K thread with useless arguments, lets argue here. DBounce........fire away!

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

GH5/S can both show custom luts or use baked in Luts (picture profiles).

A Picture Profile is nothing like a LUT.

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

Erh...  GH6

Nope, people will still make great home videos/ low budget films etc on the GH5 once the GH6 is out.

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

GH5S has this option

 OK, so the GH5s has TC input but you lose IBIS. Which camera are you comparing here?

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

this is optional on the GH cameras

Yep, needs an iditional add on making it a bigger, more expensive and heavier camera.

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

XLR input with phantom power capability - this is optional on the GH cameras.

Again, bigger, heavier, more expensive

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

Internal RAW - so a codec

This is so much more than a codec and it's a massive advantage.

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

Build quality is arguable too. The Pocket4k uses a polycarbonate / carbon fibre mix. My $6000 mountain bike that gets a heap of abuse has a frame that is also made of plastic/ carbon fibre! It's extremely tough stuff and lightweight. To the uninitiated, the lightness can be confused with 'cheap feeing'. - These are cameras not mountain bikes

No but it suggests that the materials used are strong. 

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

Should I list all the features of DaVinci Resolve Studio here? Should I list all the features of FCPX, Adobe PP and AE? How about you just list the bug where it changed aspect ratio after making edits in Fusion

Last time I checked, FCPX, Adobe Premiere and AE were not included with any Panasonic cameras. Has this changed?

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

USB-C recording - never wished for this option on a GH5/S.

Thats because you can't shoot raw on the GH5. I wasn't all that interested in this feature either when they announced it but having used it, it's actually really handy.

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

Warranty wise, I had issues back in the day with a GH3 and Panasonic were a PITA to deal with for warranty. Had an issue with an UMP and BMD promptly fixed it.

So you had an issue with a 6 year old Panasonic camera and Panasonic wouldn't fix it? Hmmm?

?‍♂️ Good grief.......obviously (or maybe not to some people)  the GH3 was not six years old when I had issues with it. It was less than a year old. 

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

So the $1k P4K should be thought of more like an Alexa mini than a hybrid. That's fantastic.  All you need is a full crew to run it and a multimillion dollar budget. No pesky things like IBIS, OIS or Gimbal compatibility no longer matter. And since you have a team of colorist you can focus on what really matters... RAW!

You can use OIS lenses on the Pocket. You can put the pocket on many gimbals. I really don't know where you are getting your info from?

I'm not sure of your background, but I've shot on many cameras from BetacamSP (Manual Focus Only, no weather sealing) to the Red Weapon and Alexa (Again, MF only and no WR) and operated all the cameras without a crew. Just because you don't have AF doesn't mean you need a focus puller. Have you not seen operators pull focus off the barrel while looking through the EVF? It actually works!

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

The guy in the skate park. He'll keep up with the fast paced action with manual focus and no crew

Skate videos have been shot without AF for years.

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

That said, you do need to capture the shot... and that's where those features you dismiss become important. 

Personally for my work and even just my creative standards, getting the shot but seeing some AF hunt is personally not acceptable to me. I'm pretty happy with how my eyes and focus ability are though and will trust them over AF.

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

I believe in the primary camera role this camera will need a crew. If this is not you... the GH5/S is a better choice with it's useless practicality.

Ive had the camera for two weeks now and used it without a crew. It's an easy camera to operate. I do wish the screen would tilt, it seems a shame to have such a nice big screen and not be able to use it all the time. At the same time, while most mirrorless cameras screens do tilt, I've always found them too small so like to rig a bigger monitor or EVF anyway. Even just the fact that the screen is so big on the Pocket means that using the touch screen is such a joy. Can't say the same about the touch screens I have used on mirrorless cameras. 

 

6 hours ago, DBounce said:

And since you have a team of colorist you can focus on what really matters... RAW!

Ive always maintained that most people don't need RAW due to the large file sizes, hardware requirement etc. 10bit is enough for most people.

After thinking about Blackmagic RAW recently, I've now changed my mind. While large budget productions have much more control over varying conditions, solo shooters do not. A solo shooter has a lot to think about and it's more likely that a solo shooter is going to have to compromise on DR due to not having a gaffer on hand, or is going to forget to set the WB correctly for a shot due to lack of time and having so much to think about. If that shooter could now shoot RAW but in a flavour like BRAW which is easy for most modern computers to handle, can be shot to cheap SD cards and requires less  drive space than many 10bit codecs, then why wouldn't they want that? For run and gun shooters, BRAW makes a lot of sense where CDNG raw didn't. BRAW doesn't make a bad shooter great, but it can be used to fix mistakes easily......Good shooters, bad shooters.....we all make mistakes every now and again.

 

DBounce, this camera is obviously not for you and you have made that quite clear. I just don't understand why you feel the need to get on the Pocket4K thread and constantly argue about why the GH5 is better. I haven't felt the need to get on the GH5 thread and talk up the Pocket or shit can the GH5. Can we keep this thread about the Pocket4k, it's getting really tiring trawling through pages and pages of silly arguments.

I have made a new thread.....feel free to continue the argument there please. I'd like to converse here and share information with others that want/ have the camera.

5 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Make it simple. Buy weather sealed lenses ; -)

But many here shooting MFT like to use Speedboosters. Speedboosters are NOT weather sealed and a camera is only classed as weather sealed when both the body and compatible lens are both sealed. A speedbooster breaks that.

I can make it even simpler..... use protection!

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

Sure it can. But the GH5s is weather-sealed - dust, splash and freeze resistant; the Pocket 4K isn't.

No the Pocket isn't but then, are your Veydra primes dust, splash and freeze resistant? No they are not.

You're seriously not going to sacrifice your expensive lenses out in the weather unprotected just because your cheap body that will be outdates in a few years is weather sealed are you?

2 hours ago, DBounce said:

Sure,  for one thing the build quality is much better... magnesium alloy vs plastic. Weather sealed body. Dual SD slots that can act redundantly. OIS supported correctly. Works 100% with many gimbals with full control of  focus, rec/start stop etc... Full remote app support.  3 year warranty.  Multiple still shooting modes. Support for battery grip. Flip out screen.  Flash support.  Wireless and NFC support. 10.2 MP stills with usable AF in stills mode. 12 fps burst rate. Not to mention a ton of monitoring tools. And much much more...

Now, other than codecs what does the P4K bring to the party that the GH5s doesn't and how reliable will it be with its plastic build? And don't get me started on the ridiculous crop in high frame rates.

Ah, shame on me for having a few drinks and getting sucked back into this constant debate about what is better!

Firstly, lets just get this out of the way. No camera is better! Is Panasonic still going to sell plenty of GH5's? YES! Is BMD still going to sell plenty of Pocket4K's? YES. 

Hasn't everyone learnt yet that no single camera is a 'GH5 Killer' or '>insert other camera model here< killer?

Now that that's out of the way other than codec the Pocket4k has the following that the GH5s doesn't:

- 5" 1080p screen

-  LUT support for viewing or also can be baked into recording

- Timecode input

- XLR input with phantom power capability

- USB-C recording

- CFast recording

- Editable metadata for every shot/ file including lenses used, focal length etc etc in each file

- Internal RAW

- Soon to get, Internal Blackmagic RAW for 12 bit RAW to SD Cards. BMD have confirmed it will be getting BRAW.

- Proper False Colour (not a silly LUT hack)

- Arguably, but seemingly better colour science.

- A far superior and easier to use menu system. This is a really underrated feature. Shooting with and operating the Pocket is just so much faster than any mirrorless camera.

- Build quality is arguable too. The Pocket4k uses a polycarbonate / carbon fibre mix. My $6000 mountain bike that gets a heap of abuse has a frame that is also made of plastic/ carbon fibre! It's extremely tough stuff and lightweight. To the uninitiated, the lightness can be confused with 'cheap feeing'. 

- A far superior workflow from capture to edit.

- Should I list all the features of DaVinci Resolve Studio here? 

I could go on and on. The Pocket4k is in it's infancy as a product. There is no reason why a battery grip couldn't be made for it.

Warranty wise, I had issues back in the day with a GH3 and Panasonic were a PITA to deal with for warranty. Had an issue with an UMP and BMD promptly fixed it.

Comparing a mirrorless hybrid to a camera designed more for cine use is really silly. You know most mirrorless cameras also have heaps of features that the Alexa doesn't? Alexa doesn't have AutoFocus, flash support, or NFC, or or dual SD card slots, or work on 100% of gimbals.........is it a bad camera? But where Alexa does win is image, codecs and ease of use for shooting video so it's a bit ridiculous to dismiss these in the Pocket4k as that is what is most important in a cine style camera. Video Codecs are NOT the priority in a hybrid mirrorless camera. While you may look at a spec sheet and see a long list of features on your mirrorless camera, I guarantee that a proper DP, editor or Colourist is not going to give two shits about 99% of those features. 

But hey, if the feature you find on the GH5 are important to you, then just buy a GH5. The great thing is, you can choose what works best for you.

But ultimately, all those features do not contribute to a nice 'cinematic' (I hate that word) image.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes. I have a professional obligation to my readers.

It's a shame you don't show any professional duty to the person hosting your comments, by the way.

One day you might realise that a forum is only as good as it's members. It's a two way street.

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I haven't got a fucking camera, genius boy!

Can't see where I shouted expletives at YOU.

You have no respect for anyone here Andrew.

Goodbye all, it was fun while it lasted

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes. I have a professional obligation to my readers.

It's a shame you don't show any professional duty to the person hosting your comments, by the way.

Sorry, did you take offence to one of my comments? I'm not sure where I was being unprofessional toward you. 

20 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

No, I have the camera sitting right in front of me right now. Let me just show you how to grade it. In fact I'll have a book on it ready by 9am tomorrow!

I look forward to it. The problem for me though is, since 'Manchestergate', with all the negativity you have pent up toward the pocket4k, can you still be objective about it?

And I'm being serious, while I have the camera and am loving the images from it, it's a shame that many of your forum users who don't have it or are relying on good thorough reviews on it before they buy it won't get an objective view from someone they look up to in the technical regard.

1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said:

I haven't got a fucking camera, genius boy!

Didn't you cancel your pre order?

40 minutes ago, MurtlandPhoto said:

The best IQ comparison I've seen yet.

Great comparison and really shows the lovely images the Pocket4k produces and what I'm seeing with mine. Much richer images compared to the GH5.

Secondly,  and what I've been saying all along is that a camera only produces a certain percentage of the 'cinematic look' everyone is so hung up on. Most people who want 'cinematic' here, also want autofocus and IBIS but neither of these features lend themselves to 'cinematic' qualities.  IBIS only does so much and you still get a small amount of jitter here and there. Same as AF, it's never perfect with electronic SLR lenses and nothing screams SLR more than small amounts of jitter in the lens or movement of the camera. If you want 'cinematic' with the Pocket4K or any mirrorless camera really, you need to rig them. Being on a Gimbal, a Tripod, a Slider, a good shoulder rig etc. 

You can always rig the Pocket to get great steady shots, can you improve the GH5 to get the same DR, colour response and flexibility in post?

14 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The problem with tests like these is they may as well be a review of the tester's grading skills.

Ever since RAW and LOG first came out we have had the same issue - are we watching badly graded footage or is the camera to blame?

So why don't you do a comparison and show them all how it's done?

The same person would have graded the shots in that video. If they are amateurs , this shows that the Pocket 4K was easier to grade for an amateur. Not a bad thing?