newfoundmass

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Increrible if you think about it..when mirrorless started, the Sony had serious limits on their lenses line up, and right now it is their biggest advantage! Way to go Sony..

They really were smart to open up e-mount to anyone that was willing to make lenses for it. I think it had a huge impact on the growth of the system. That the third party options were also excellent quality didn't hurt either! 

9 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Maybe I'm blind but I've now looked at all three of these videos on my monitor (as opposed to on my phone) streaming at 4k resolution and pausing the video on relevant frames. I'm sure there is a difference but I don't see anything that I would object to in the S5II shots. If anything the moire control seems to be working because I saw some in the standard profile S5 shot that wasn't in the comparison shot for the S5II!

I definitely see a difference. The image isn't completely unpleasing. I think the issue isn't so much that it's there if you want that level of denoising, but that you can't turn it off. I'm personally opposed to having less control over how the image looks, so it'd be very much appreciated if Lumix could give people the option to adjust how much denoising is going on.

To me, it just makes sense to release power zooms as video has become such an important part of the mirrorless market. I miss the ergonomics of camcorders in general, but I especially miss the ability to do smooth and repeatable zooms. For event work it'd be a huge deal for folks, I think.

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

On the switch this is really nitpicking... R5c has the switch on the left side. R5 does not even have the switch but you need to program a button and imo is worst as you can hit it by mistake as I do sometime and I hate it. So imo on the switch R8 > R5.
R7 has two wheels one for the index finger and one on the back but place much higher .... R8 has two wheels too one for the index finger and one that you can reach with your thumb on top like the R5, R5c, R3 and so on... it seems to me that the R7 is the strange one here.... if the R7 would have had 3 wheels maybe but it again it only has 1 joystick more....
 
I can understand that for your usage or preference you like the ergonomics of the R7 better, but claiming that the R8 has bad ergonomics is a bit of a long shoot.

You've been dismissive and combative with everyone that has been remotely critical of this camera. Give it a rest. If you want to disagree with people, fine, but do it without accusing them of just parroting Andrew or being "fanboys" of another camera company. 

It lacks customizable function buttons of other cameras in its price range. It lacks dual card slots, which is also available in other cameras in its price range. Likewise, it lacks IBIS, which is also available in cameras in its price range. That it's so lightweight also doesn't do it any favors when it comes to stabilization. It has a worse EVF than many cameras in its price range. It has micro HDMI. These are all ergonomic issues that make the camera less efficient in a working environment. They might not matter to you, but they matter to a lot of people and are enough to make some of us say that this camera has poor ergonomics/design. 

Hopefully it's something they can fix in a firmware update.

GX85 maybe? 

Calm down and stop being so defensive. I've said nothing that others, including a Canon user in @herein2020, haven't said. That it annoys you so much that people aren't impressed with this camera says more about you than any of us. I've been as hard on Panasonic these past couple of years as anyone. It's such a lame excuse to accuse people of fan boyism.

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

You wouldn't be able to buy anything in your life, ever! Have you ever bought a car??!! That would be a nightmare for you!

I'm filming on two S5 bodies and a GH5. I don't care about using the latest and greatest. I'm merely pointing out, in response to people insisting on comparing the R8 to 3 year old cameras to point out how great it is, that someone before long will inevitably come along and release a FF 4k60p camera but without all the compromises for under $2000. 

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

IBIS being so important is just laughable for me..does the Pocket cameras have IBIS? Did your cameras for 3-4 years ago? Your Canon C cameras of yesteryear? The Alexa's of this world? I have to work with GH5 sometimes and they make me work with IBIS and I hated it.

I've had a GH5 for 6 years, so yes, I've had IBIS for the last 3-4 years. I've also had no recording limits/overheating, two card slots, good battery life, a body capable of tons of customization, etc. To me these are just as important as the image quality, because they make my job easier. 

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

IQ and speed are the number 1 in video cameras, and this one has those 2 sorted.

How is this camera built for speed? 

4 hours ago, ade towell said:

Lenses - I got the 20-60mm and 50mm 1.8 with the S5ii at a good price. They are both great lenses for video - well built, silent and fast AF and come with good quality lens hoods. Drives me mad that with Canon you have to buy an L lens to get a hood. The 20-60mm is surprisingly good, 20mm is a great bonus when traditionally these zooms start at 24mm. The zoom ring is quite firm but solid and won't extend under gravity like my 24-105mm L lens is prone to do. I love the 50mm it has a nice big dampened focus ring and is a good size and weight on the S5ii, feels nicely balanced. Am using it way more than I ever did the little plastic 50mm stm lens I have for the R6 which was slow with AF and cheap feeling focus ring. I think these silent focusing Panasonic lenses are better for video than most of the noisy Canon lenses i have.

That 20-60mm kit lens is the best kit lens I've ever used, and is a genuinely good lens. When I bought my first S5 used I planned to sell the kit lens but then when I got it I decided not to. When I bought my second S5 body I ended up buying a second 20-60mm because of how good it is and in the event I needed two wider shots. Usually I use the 24-105mm on one body and the 20-60mm on another, but it's worth having that extra 20-60mm in my case for when I need it. 

My next lens will be the 35mm f1.8, I think.

4 hours ago, ade towell said:

Audio - this is the first mirrorless camera where I feel comfortable recording sound internally on important stuff. The 96khz 24 bit with line level and decent preamps I think make all the difference. I use Sound Devices mix pre-d for XLR on the base of the camera. I know Panasonic and Sony and now Canon using Tascam have an xlr audio adaptor you can attach to the hotshoe but that seems a crazy place to hang xlr cables to me and looks like an accident waiting to happen. Am very happy not using external audio and syncing up.

The Panny XLR adapter is great, but if you're feeding it a line in there's not much of a reason to use it over the mic jack. You'll get good audio either way, since Panasonic pre-amps have been pretty good since the GH5. 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! 

On 2/9/2023 at 7:11 PM, Al Dolega said:

I don't think adding a motor, controller, and rocker/buttons would make the lens any cheaper, especially since it would certainly sell way fewer units than the regular 24-105.

Which I think is great, btw. Seems parfocal enough to me, maybe it's "fake" parfocal where it's programmed to adjust the focus as you zoom, but that's good enough for me. The only real improvement I can think of would be for it to go to 120mm like the Nikon equivalent does.

When I said cut down on the price I meant by not needing it to be parfocal. I wouldn't expect a power zoom version of the 24-105mm to be cheaper than the current lens. I'd pay more (within reason) to have a version of that lens with power zoom capabilities. 

Video has come such a huge part of the industry that everyone should be making power zoom lenses. 

With all the hubbub over raw I do think we're pretty close to it being irrelevant for all but major productions. The images we're able to record these days internally, without using raw or an external recorder, are really good. The gap has narrowed so much.

19 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Are you serious?
We should compare to cameras that may be released in the future and thus we should be here saying that is meh release because it will be surpassed in the future?!? Because you, alias Nostradamus 🙂, thinks that in 6-12 months there will be (and I actually hope so) better cameras in this class?

But yes if you remove the super sampled 4k with no crop 24-60p, the great AF, the fast still fps, the 10 bit log, the good rolling shutter, the hybrid hot shoe, it is a crappy release... but guess what great AF and great 4k 24-60 image with AF is what many people want.  

I have also a prediction then, with the "next 6 to 12 months camera on the same price brackets" people can take artifacts free, rolling shutter free and noise free image, by using 0 space on the card compared to the R8 because it does not exit 😁

You don't like canon and is fine but I really don't get what is your contribution here as it not facts based and only hypothetical future predictions that does not help anybody that needs a camera today. 

Canon has changed a lot on the video side and most of the new release have really good video capacity with great AF:

C70 4k RAW
R5 8K RAW, 4k 120
R5c 8K RAW 60P with Cinema OS
R3 6K RAW 60p
R6, R6 II, R8 super sampled 4k 60 10bit CLog 3
R7 super sampled S35 4k 60 10bit CLog 3

Times are changed from the Canon that was not innovating and holding back tons of features on the video sides. Are these camera perfect no, are their competitive in their respective price bracket yes. Just a few years ago RP and R where really meh released for video.

The fact that a 1500$ gives you most of the feature that the others much more expensive cameras give you is the good story. And let's not discuss on the stills side that for the sports/actions photographer a R8 will do better in many scenarios than 6k$ 1Dx III (and I owned the 1Dx III)

 

Yes, I'm serious. And if you don't think a FF camera at a comparable price point with better specs won't be announced in the next 6 to 12 months then you don't follow the camera industry. 

My comments aren't because I'm a Canon hater, they're because it's an average release with one standout feature. The R7 is a better option, and I gave Canon credit on this forum when it was announced. 

If you're fine spending $1500 on a camera that lacks IBIS, has only one card slot, terrible battery life, poor ergonomics, etc. because it has full frame 4K60p then cool. But your opinion is no more valid than mine. 

Parfocal would be nice, but honestly I'd be happy with the 24-105 f/4 but with a power zoom function, especially if it would cut down on the price. The 24-105 is so close to being parfocal anyway that it's not that big of a deal.

5 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Happy to see your comparison with other FF in the same price range.... Nikon Z5 😁 ? 

 

One camera was released in 2023, the other was released in 2020. A 2023 camera shouldn't be comparable to a camera released nearly 3 years earlier, regardless of the price.

Canon doesn't deserve a ticker-tape parade for releasing an average camera with one great feature (and several handicaps) just because they priced it lower than a bunch of cameras that are 2-3 years older than it. It's a pretty damning indictment of Canon that people think they do simply for not releasing a lemon.

2 hours ago, Django said:

It's the most entry-level FF model, that's why it should be compared to the similarly priced A7C. Not a Z9, A1 etc.

An entry model camera that was released three years ago! Within 6 to 12 months there will be a FF camera that exceeds what the Canon R8 can do, and probably significantly, while priced competitively. 

2 hours ago, Django said:

And yeah Canon should be praised for not gimping the video specs and giving it FF4K60p & 10-bit.

You are laser focused on that one spec and just ignoring everything else that was cut from this camera. Outside that one spec, and the better autofocus, it's not even a more capable camera than the 2 1/2 year-old S5 that now goes for $1000 used and the same price brand new as the R8.

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I guess I just look at it the other way, I don't consider the crop sensor to be a compromise at all and I use it with FF glass every day; in fact, I did not buy a single new lens for the R7, even my EF-S glass works with it.  I actually consider it a strength since it produces identical IQ as the R5 up to 3200ISO, but with better battery life, better IBIS, and better heat handling.

The obsession with full frame has become so entrenched that functional cameras are completely dismissed by some folks because they have crop sensors. It's just crazy.

1 hour ago, Django said:

I still think FF4K60p in 10-bit with Clog3 is quite a nice surprise in an entry-level FF mirrorless. Yeah its no big deal for all those of us with R5's, A7SIII's, S1Hs etc but think of the little guys 😉 

It's not so much that it's not a big deal because of those cameras, it's just not that big of a deal because it's the natural progression camera companies have been moving toward, except most of those companies are moving towards that without removing camera features like Canon does.

Ultimately Canon accomplished what they wanted by including uncropped 4K60 because that simple fact has blinded some people into thinking this is some great release/super value camera. To be clear, it's not an awful release, but let's stop praising Canon because they're doing more than the bare minimum finally. 

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

R8 has the hybrid hotshoe.

Expensive RF lens like the RF 100-400, 600 11, 800 11, 24-105 7.1, 24-240, 16, 24, 35, 50, 85 STM, 24-50, 15-30….

I don’t think people buying an entry level R body will buy 28-70 2.0 or 50 1.2

Yes canon should have included IBIS, a bigger battery, a bigger body and call it R6 II….. boy it cost 1000$ (40%) less it cannot be the same.

The Sony a7c cost 300$ more has no dual card neither, max 10fps vs 40, 4k 30 max and with a 1.2 crop at 30, 8bit only, half the res touch screen…. people should get real…

The A7c is like 3 years old. We're setting the bar awful low if "it's a better value than a 3 year old camera" is all it takes to praise Canon. It seems like any time they don't release a complete lemon people feel the need to praise them like you'd praise a dog for going to the bathroom outside while potty training them. (sorry, I'm currently potty training a pup!) 

Canon is confusing because their releases can sometimes feel random. Releasing the R50 makes sense, since it's the uber low cost entry level camera that will get the normal user into the RF system. We all know people that are the R50's target audience. I really don't know though what the target audience for the R8 is, and if anything it feels like it's competing with Canon's own cameras, namely the R7. 

I've seen people repeat some variation of "they'll sell a ton of these" all over the place, but to who? This feels kind of like the replacement for the RP but did that camera really sell well? I don't know anyone that bought one. I feel like the R8 will be much the same. The R7 feels like a better overall option for people needing a b-cam for professionals or enthusiasts. Maybe it'll be useful as a permanent "studio" cam for Youtubers? But they don't need uncropped 4K60p for that anyway. 

Indeed, there are quite a few troubling signs when it comes to AI and the way it will be used in the future. To me, there is a lot of promise in AI as long as it's used as merely a TOOL or aid to the person. It's disappointing, but not at all surprising, that it is being viewed as a replacement for the person completely.

I think people confuse a low price with "being a good value." To me, the only thing that really impresses me is the uncropped 4k60p. But if you want any stabilization in that mode won't it crop into the sensor anyway? Not as drastic as an APSC crop you'd get on other cameras, but a crop nonetheless.

11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Pretty much any 4K FF camera from last 5 years currently over £1000 on eBay would be better choice for manual focus glass... Pana S1, S5, Nikon Z6, Sony A7 III, A7C, Sigma Fp, etc.

S5 bodies are going for absolute bargains right now. I kinda wish I'd waited a few months before buying my second one even though I got a pretty good deal on it!

This camera illustrates the significant difference between Canon and everyone else. Even when putting out a compelling package, and for some folks this is a compelling package, they can't help themselves from holding back something significant like IBIS. Meanwhile, others are putting everything they can into even their entry level options. To me this feels like a stop gap more than anything. It's not compelling enough for most serious users, but might provide an upgrade path for RP or R users who might be eying the exit as other companies offer better value and those cameras continue to become long in the tooth.

30 minutes ago, Beritar said:

I hope you will find this test useful : 
 

 

Thank you! Quick question/comment though: I've never had a problem with the S5 being so jittery on the y-axis like it is in your clips. I've used the kit lens, which doesn't have OIS, and the 24-105mm, which does, for the last year. What lens did you use? 

1 hour ago, Al Dolega said:

This! I can't stand this trend. It seems to me  this was born of laziness and now is actually expected. Like shooting separate B-roll doesn't even occur to people anymore, since whichever Sony ZV-whatever introduced "product showcase" mode. Now people think holding something up in front of your face at F1.4 is the way it's done, and any camera that doesn't enable this is trash.

There's a lot of things you can criticize the YouTube crowd for but these are the things that bother me most. I get that they are an important target for camera marketing and profitability, but it does feel like they've played an oversized role in the direction camera companies have been taking and that's frustrating. All it has done is enabled laziness and stunted creativity. 

I'm sure as more people get their hands on the S5ii we'll see more "comparisons" between it and other cameras where people will do the same stupid tests where they jump in and out of frame, and if it doesn't stick to them like the Sony cameras do they'll devote several minutes to it even though it will function perfectly for what 99% of people need. Meanwhile legitimate issues, such as the over processing in the non-log picture profiles, will get significantly less attention (notice how none of the folks that got early copies of the camera mentioned this at all and it wasn't brought up until actual customers got their hands on it?)

I would never argue against better autofocus BUT...

It has made people so incredibly lazy, especially on YouTube. Little things drive me nuts, like holding up something to the camera instead of taking the time to film proper B-roll that looks more pleasing and shows us the object in more detail. People also "need" autofocus because they insist on filming wide open and if they move half an inch forwards or backwards they're out of focus. It's obnoxious. 

Okay enough ranting, haha.

4 hours ago, Django said:

Its quite logical really, most Youtubers shoot solo so they value things like face/eye AF. Whereas Hollywood uses manual glass and DPs have dedicated focus pullers. AF is not at all necessary.

What's "manual autofocus" by the way?

At least on Panasonic cameras you can put the camera in manual focus and then press a button to autofocus when you want to focus. I do it a lot on the S5.