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I think there's a chance that they'll implement the other flavours of Prores in a firmware update. They've promised to have Prores HQ in 4K and 1080p in a firmware update, and adding the other flavours would make sense at that point. I suspect that they pushed to get the 5.7K Prores HQ in-camera for the pre-production models because it's a headline feature, so that would have been a priority. I'm working on a Prores vs H264 test now, so depending on what I find I might be posting a new thread on it if I find something worth sharing.

I think that's a smart decision. Financially, sure, but also for the final results. Better cameras are great. but only if you know them and know how they shoot and how to expose to get the best files, and any gotchas around annoying features or battery issues or whatever that can screw things up and lose footage over. The best camera in the world, used improperly, is worse than the camera you know and trust.

It also works well if there just isn't much motion in the shot. You'd have to play with it to know how far you can push it, and subject to taste as well, but things like a slowly moving shot of a still scene or a wide landscape shot without a moving foreground, etc can work quite well. I've seen wedding videographers use SS to expose like this and although some scenes it's obvious, other scenes they completely got away with it, so it's really subject dependent.

OOPS! Yes indeed! lol. So used to comparing everything to FF 😂😂😂 F2 lenses are even easier to get than F1.4 lenses, so there really are lots of great options around. It's not ideal, but it could get the job done. If I was literally limited to a P&S then I'd try and get one with nicer video and nicer low-light (real-life happens after the sun goes down) so maybe an RX100 might be a good fit. Having a super-zoom is nice, but a 24-70 would cover the vast majority of situations - there's a reason that the kit lens is that coverage. Smartphones now with their 2 cameras are almost the same focal lengths that I like to shoot with in manual primes.. ~16mm 35mm and 85mm FF equivalent focal lengths. Being able to shoot Prores on a phone might give it a real boost and not look thin and over sharpened. It all depends what you're trying to do. I had a FB "disagreement" the other day with a guy that said that amateurs don't have requirements, only pros have requirements, and amateurs only have preferences. In a sense there's no minimum standard for amateurs, but also no absolute minimum standard for pros either, unless you're shooting for Netflix or commercial TV where there are standards to hit (for better or worse). However, having said all that, amateurs only have whatever standards they set for themselves, and my minimum standard is to capture images rather than not capture them, but I'm interested in getting the best image I can so there's no way I'm going to accept a 90's miniDV handicam when I can have a mirrorless for only a few thousand!

There's a huge difference between Prores RAW and Prores, and it's a big one for me, who shoots at a lower resolution than the sensor for smaller files but still getting the benefits of downsampling in-camera. In terms of sensor size, it depends on your lenses. FF really sucks if all you own is S16 or MFT glass, and if you own S35 glass and can mount it and shoot in crop-mode then sure, but you're losing the benefit of the FF sensor and could just have a S35 sensor. Shallow DoF is nice, and MFT can definitely do it with the right lenses, of course acknowledging that FF definitely does it more easily than MFT.... BUT, shallow DoF is far less common in films than is often talked about. The average shot in most films will push the background out of focus a bit to give nice separation, but it won't be a big blur unless it's a long lens, which makes getting more blur easier on any format. The workhorses of the S35 cinema world are f2.8 lenses, which require an f1.4 equivalent on MFT to get the same DoF, but ironically the proliferation of cheap Chinese FF f1.4 lenses has meant that it's easier than ever to shoot on MFT with super-fast lenses. I think that the specs game is like any other social media bubble where once you're in it everyone seems to be talking about it and you lose perspective. I've been concentrating on editing more recently as that's my overall weakness as a film-maker, and the more I look at editing the more I think I could shoot really great travel films with a half-decent P&S. The things that make the award winning shows great is the overall content and storytelling and sound design etc. If DoF was really the defining feature then Army of the Dead would be an Oscar Winner, but actually, no..... https://ymcinema.com/2021/05/28/zack-snyder-shot-the-entire-army-of-the-dead-on-wide-open-aperture-f0-95/

@Marcio Kabke Pinheiro wow - that is sharp - was that wide-open?

The way I see the OM-1 / GH6 / GH5S / P4K distinction is how flexible they are for video (ie, shooting video in uncontrolled conditions. From this perspective the OM-1 and GH6 are in the "very videography ready" category because they has IBIS and the others don't, with the OM-1 having the advantage because of its PDAF. It's all about speed, and shooting with sticks, or even a monopod or gimbal is a much slower and heavier way to shoot than handheld, so this is really the defining feature that separates these from the GH5S and P4K. The "somewhat videography ready" category has the GH5S in it because it can expose with the shutter up to very short exposures - enough to shoot wide-open in full sun, whereas the P4K doesn't have this capability. This means you don't have to use NDs, which also slow the shooting process. It can also take photos, which videography frequently coexists with and is expected from the same camera. The "it is actually a cinema camera" category is the P4K without IBIS or fast shutter speeds available. It's not the least useful for video out of all cameras due to its good high ISO performance, unlike true cinema cameras where they basically never get changed from their base ISO, but it's still much better suited to shooting where you have control of the conditions and have time to setup and expose and bend the subject to the camera. There are obviously other factors in here that effect things, but if you got tasked with shooting an event video that was completely chaotic with things changing at every moment, where you had to get everything and had no re-takes, I'd much prefer the OM-1 set to full-auto than the P4K. I'm sure they'll tinker with the GH6 AF but I'm not optimistic about it getting that much better. I'm no expert, but AI typically gets better as a function of how much processing power you give it, which I think is why it's better than the GH5, but there's a real limit to it I think.

Ok, I think with your explanation this is starting to make some sense. When you outlined it before you didn't provide nearly enough information. Maybe it was a mistake to unblock your profile.... 🙄🙄🙄

Here's another video with test footage that isn't all slow-motion... So, if CineD tested at ISO800 and 250 is the native ISO, it'll have more DR than their test found? Even better! What would the difference be of having a 4K S16 sensor camera, or a 6K MFT sensor camera that you can set to by 4K 1:1 crop? Assuming the codecs and features were all the same of course.

I think it's probably a feature that would be advertised heavily, but in a sense it's a natural evolution of the tech and will eventually just form part of a baseline spec. Plenty of features in the GH6 that would have been headline features of the GH5ii had they been included in that camera, but in the GH6 are just part of the whole package. There's a saying "People will never understand what they're paid to not understand". Unfortunately, even beyond this, the ability of "camera tech experts" to understand actual camera tech is saddeningly thin at times. or let me put it another way, when I, a Dad who shoots home videos, know more about camera tech than you do and that's your actual job, then you're in real trouble. Unfortunately that's actually the case with disturbing regularity. Even beyond those, when I tried a few weeks ago to bring up the concept that EIS requires short shutter speeds, I was shouted down by a number of forum members who not only didn't understand the tech, but thought that it wasn't possible for anyone else to understand it. They often say that in democracies we get the leaders we deserve, and applying that to the camera industry, how low we have set the bar.....

Yes, this is exactly the challenge I was talking about - the direct support in NLEs so they will adjust the image appropriately. I know you said that it can be done with V-Log-L , but I don't have that and considering how old the GH5 is I didn't think that it was worth the huge asking price for the upgrade, so I'm looking forward to having that ability.

Yeah, if you're set on AF then there's the OM-1 and if not then there's this. Maybe the zombie apocalypse is actually thousands of people running around outside making films with dead-format cameras having a great time and the FF purists huddling in their fortified caves afraid that they'll get overrun by the impure hordes!

Fair enough, it was a stress test after all. I'm guessing it will look much nicer in its sweet spot. I'm looking forward to seeing how it looks with the Prores in FHD and DR boost mode, which is how I'll shoot with it. Getting the benefits of down sampling with the grain and texture retention of Prores and the full VLog capability will be an interesting mix. I'm also keen to see what treatments there are for VLog around, both LUTs and power grades. Maybe Juan Melara will give it his Alexa matching treatment, etc.

Awesome - that makes sense - DR is about latitude and so the over/under tests are where it's at. Maybe the GH5 has so little DR that I've not paid much attention to the thing I didn't have! 😂😂😂 The addition of full V-Log is excellent as I'm assuming it will mean you can do severe exposure and WB changes without running into tint problems. That has been my problem working with GH5 (and the S1) footage - when you're pushing and pulling it has these colour warps in the shadows and highlights. Makes sense, I'll have to read a bit more about it. A few reviewers mentioned it would get Prores RAW in a future update. It's not something that will entice me, but seems a pretty good thing to offer now that people expect RAW from cameras at this price-point. The Media Division review contains a test short near the start of their review. It was in the tunnel they use for testing, and isn't exactly a nicely lit environment, but the footage looked pretty nice actually, so that's worth a watch if you haven't seen it yet. Also, PotatoJet filmed the talking head part of his review using the GH6, including using the AF which he said did an awesome job, and that's a nice lighting environment for skintones etc. The GH6 isn't an "upgrade" to the P4K, they're fundamentally different cameras. People think that because they are similarly sized and priced that they're comparable, but not so - different cameras for different tasks. The GH5 in 4K is about a S16 crop using the ETC mode (1:1 readout), I haven't done the math but the GH6 will likely be something like that. The new frame guide function (that looks MUCH improved from the GH5 one which was pathetic) would help you shoot within the s16 frame if the crop was a little wide. You'd have to crop the files in post, but that's easily done. Yeah. Just a matter of buying a fixed ND that takes the Base ISO down to the normal non-boosted DR Base ISO, then you can use your normal NDs. I also liked that they have a new super-fast maximum shutter-speed, which may be necessary for shooting wide open in that mode in Aperture priority (how I shoot).

I suspect that it'll take a while to really understand what this tech is, means, and how to get the most from it. It's a different way of thinking about things compared to 'normal' or dual-ISO sensors. Yeah, the delay in their video was huge! Firmware version perhaps? or a resolution / HDMI version mismatch perhaps? I can't think of what else would cause such a big difference.. It is a little confusing... One thing that's interesting is CineD tested the GH6 to be 11 with Prores, and the P4K at about 11.6-11.7. (Source is from the CineD test on the P6K where they talk about the P4K in passing: https://www.cined.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-6k-lab-test-dynamic-range-latitude-rolling-shutter-more/ ) So, the P4K with same sensor area and only a single gain stage gets better DR, which supports the idea that the GH6 sensor isn't the latest tech, but a smarter architecture and an older tech perhaps? If it is a BSI sensor - what advantages would that have?

Ah, that would be perfect too. So really then, have a 3.5mm mic jack with two 32bit ADCs, and then have it so that with a switch in settings you can swap the headphone 3.5mm jack to be a second mic jack also with two 32bit ADCs. I'd happily make a little mic array on the top of the camera by adding a couple of 3.5mm lavs to either side of the shotgun mic. EIS doesn't work well with a 180 shutter, it's only really good for very small amounts of movement or a very low shutter angle. Stabilised glass is a real limitation, which is one of the reasons I went to fully-manual primes. I shoot handheld at (the FF equivalents of) 15mm, 35mm, 85mm, and 400mm. Those are the primes I use, almost exclusively. Ah, ok. Lots of log / codec combos don't get good bit-density on the highlights or shadows, putting more of their bandwidth into the mids where the 'proper' exposure band is, so that makes sense. Interesting, I didn't know that those RAW codecs were RAW log and not Linear. Even better. The more bit density you can put in the skin tone range the better!

Ha! Wouldn't that be hilarious... "oh, the GH6 doesn't use AF because it's got sensors from the same place ARRI gets theirs!" ....still wouldn't shut up the people who can't focus their lenses by themselves 😛

@Tito Ferradans shows the latency here and it seems like there isn't any... linked to the timecode: CineD have their results up: https://www.cined.com/panasonic-lumix-gh6-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/ Other modes do a little differently, but one highlight was that the Prores didn't do much NR and they found they "show a very nice, organic noise floor with additional stops that can be retrieved in post-processing". Considering that the GH5 combination of features suits me better than any other camera, and it's got 2 full extra stops of DR, which is cool. Yeah, Media Division are spectacular. Plus all sorts of other little cool things too. So many things while watching reviews that made me think "oh, that's super useful - I'd use that".

+1 for Media Divisions review. I looked through the dozen or so GH6 videos in my feed and stopped when I saw Media Division had done one and just watched that. They are the most level-headed film-making centric channel out there - both technically capable and also film-making aware so don't get caught up in tech for its own sake. It looks like an absolute cracker of a camera. My impressions are that although it's not teaching FF lessons like the GH4 and GH5 did on their release, it'll still be a solid presence in the market, especially for people who don't need AF. I'm also looking forward to Andrews review.

I definitely did that to myself. I messaged @mercer asking for opinions and the "Camera for India" discussion hit triple digits, and I ended up buying the camera locally for RRP and I had one day to test it before I hit the road. I even had a lens shipped to a post office near where I was staying in Sydney as I didn't want to risk that it would be late and I'd miss it! This is a huge topic and I'll resist the temptation to rant, but I think this is a hugely under-developed part of camera design. My ideal camera would have the ability to record all these simultaneously: 3.5mm input 1 L&R to two audio channels (ie, normal) 3.5mm input 1 L&R to two audio channels (at -20/-30/-40dB as safety tracks) 3.5mm input 2 L&R to two audio channels (ie, normal) 3.5mm input 2 L&R to two audio channels (at -20/-30/-40dB as safety tracks) in-built speakers L&R to two audio channels with auto-levelling One thing that travel film-making really benefits from is ambient sound, and being able to record a shotgun (at normal gain and also a safety track) plus a stereo track would be killer. I basically never remember to unplug the on-camera shotgun to get stereo sound, so I'm having to do a lot of work in finding ambient soundtracks to liven things up in the mix and if they were just there then it would be spectacular. ...and yet those people will then have to buy a monitor anyway.... which will just be a monitor because it can now record internal RAW, so no need to go external for better codecs. *sigh*. Once again, camera size suffers because people won't do the right thing. IBIS is all the rage, and I love it for shooting manual primes (which I use almost exclusively) but OIS can be incredible too. I chose my Sony X3000 action camera over a GoPro because of the OIS and it's just incredible. The combination of super wide-angle lens (15mm FF equiv?) and OIS means that if I hand-hold a follow-shot from as high as I can reach looking down then people think it's a drone. The other piece that's missing from ARRI is that it records RAW in LOG format, not Linear. Is there any talk of that trickling down too? There can be some tricky stuff in the data pipelines, but also strange manufacturer limitations coming from the "it's all too hard" department. For example the GH5 uses UHS-II card slots, and the 400Mbps codec won't record continuously onto a UHS-I card, despite using UHS-I cards that are rated for well above that data rate and the fact the standard will allow it too. It might be worth trying to ETTR? I worked out that it's a bad idea on the GH5 as the HLG profile has a pretty aggressive rolloff and so anything you expose up there ends up pretty thin, but it does give you lots of room in the shadows....

Well, whaddaya know... it does have one. I take it back! I saw multiple YT videos where people said it had no audio on the body, not even a 3.5mm mic jack. I remember specifically because I was pretty stunned at how short-sighted it was. Apparently the camera reviewing YT gaggle gets it wrong for Sony as well - who knew!? Yeah, that concept of putting all the features into the smallest form-factor makes sense. Things like internal NDs really make life interesting, and although I can go out with a pocket full of batteries, really it's something that should be included on all decently sized camera bodies. My GH5 regularly does a full-day outing without me having to swap to a second battery, and I'm not sure I can remember a time when it needed the third. I only carry two spares, but I'm careful to always put them back on charge each night.

I think maybe @Andrew Reid is too taken by his NDA GH6 to worry about anything else! At least, that's what I'm telling myself 🙂

That camera is interesting in a number of ways, but the fact is has no audio capability at all without the huge top-handle really makes the very compact form factor very compromised. It's like taking a matchbox and having the only audio option be a shotgun microphone... permanently mounted to a boom! Obviously it's a cinema camera and blah blah blah, but not even capturing scratch audio while on a gimbal is a bit of an oversight I think.

Yeah, and compare it to the other two. If it has huge amount of noise because of the X-Trans sensor then we'll know, and if it doesn't, we'll know the chroma processing isn't for NR.

Considering you have access to the camera, maybe you can do a noise test by taking a few RAW stills at a few ISO settings of a dark blank surface? It would be interesting to see what the levels of noise are between the R, G and B channels. If you have another camera from a different manufacturer handy then a comparison would be useful too. Then we'll know if there even is a big noise problem with the sensor or not. Maybe it's terrible and such heavy-handed processing might be understandable, even if the severity might not be justified.