Beritar

I agree and I think this idea is nonsense.
I use m43, Panasonic/Sony FF, and yet I preorderer the G9II.
So why the hell I bought this "big" and "expensive" m43 camera ?
There are a few reasons :
- Neither my A7IV or S5II can give me the fantastic stabilization of the G9II with "relatively small" telephoto and super telephoto lenses.
- Neither of these FF cameras have an acceptable rolling shutter or 60fps Open Gate/120fps 4K. Yes, the A7SIII has good rolling shutter and it has 4K 120fps, but there are always trade-off (much more expensive, low MP, no crop mode,worse details in 4K 120fps).
- While they are a lot of really excellent lenses of the FE mount and a few on the L mount, m43 has a lot of jewels as well. 
I can't see me stopping using some of my Panasonic Leica or my Oly Pro lenses. Some are irremplacable like the 100-400mm PL, some are outstanding to the point that even comparable FF lenses are no match, like the two f1.7 Panasonic zooms (contrast and colors are wonderful). 
I also tried to replace my 12-32mm, 12-35mm and 35-100mm with some FF lenses on my S5II and my A7IV, I can't. There are some options for Sony to replace the 12-35mm but they are not compelling for me (weight, price or features associated with the camera).
- This is subjective but I love the colors from the GH6 and I expect the colors from the G9II to be almost the same. I don't like the colors of the S5II as much, even less the colors of the A7IV.
So at the end of the day, there is no perfect camera and system, but they have strengths and weaknesses.
No, we can't get the low light performance of the S5II on the G9II. No, we can't get the FF look at some focal lenghts (like the 50mm GM f1.2) with our m43 cameras and lenses. 
But as pointed out above, m43 gives a lot of advantage as well. And if we should use m43 only with small cameras, we could not get everything this system can offer with the G9II.

There is an optimum resolution and sharpness.  More is not always better.  
This is why movies aren't all shot with the highest MTF lenses currently available - DoPs choose the optimal lenses and apertures for the scene / project.
However, I shoot with cheap cameras (iPhone, GX85, GH5, etc) which are far too sharp, and look video-ish.  Luckily, we can reduce this in post.
This thread is me trying to work out:
What the range of optimal resolution / sharpnesses are actually out there (from serious professionals, not moronic camera YouTubers or internet forum pedants) What might be a good point to aim for How I might treat iPhone / GX85 / other cheap shitty video-looking footage so it looks the least video it can be These techniques will likely apply to all semi-decent consumer cameras, and should be able to be adjusted to taste.
I'm still at the beginning of this journey, and am still working out how to even tackle it, but I thought I'd start with some examples of what we're talking about.
Reference stills from the Atlas Lens Co demos from their official YT channel, shot on Komodo and uploaded 6 months ago:
(You have to click on these images to expand them, otherwise you're just looking at the forum compression...)


Reference stills from the Cooke SP3 demos from the official Cooke YT channel, uploaded 11 days ago:


I've deliberately chosen frames that have fine detail (especially fly-away hair lit with a significant contrast to what is behind it), in perfect focus, with zero motion blur.  I think this is the most revealing as it tends to be the thing that is right at the limits of the optical system.
So, what are we seeing here?
We're seeing things in focus, with reasonable fine detail.  It doesn't look SHARP, it doesn't look BLURRED, it doesn't look VINTAGE, it doesn't overly look MODERN (to me at least) and doesn't look UNNATURAL.  It looks nice, and it definitely looks high quality and makes me want to own the camera/lens combo (!) but it basically looks neutral.
But, that's not always the case.  This is also from the same Cooke SP3 promo video:

The fine detail is gone, despite there being lots of it in the scene.  Is this the lens?  Is this the post-pipeline?  We don't know, but it's a desirable enough image for Cooke (one of the premier cinema lens manufacturers in the world) to put it in their 2.5 minute demo reel on their official main page.  It also has a bit more feel than the previous images.
Contrast that with these SOOC shots from my iPhone 12 Mini:

I mean....  seriously!  
(If you're not basically dry-wrenching then you haven't opened the image up to view it full-screen.. the compressed in-line images are very tastefully smoothed over by the compression)
More:



and my X3000 action camera also has this problem:

Those with long memories will recall I've been down this road before, but I feel like I have gained enough knowledge to be able to have a decent stab at it this time.  We'll see anyway.
Follow along if you're open to the idea that more isn't better...

Great post and well made points.
I'd suggest that MFT is more suitable for any form of film-making that is focused on story/plot/emotion/meaning because it protects you from moronic ideas like shooting with a 50mm lens at maximum TONEH, which beyond shooting a scene where someone is on serious drugs, is creatively inappropriate.

I don't think anyone is questioning the future of Panasonic though ?
It is where they are at and/or heading within this specific format that is under discussion as they are in rude health within the FF market.
Again, the camera (which as I've said umpteen times looks very good) and the form/format are very different things.
The idea of a compact system that offers the "optimal balance of high image quality, compactness and lightweight in cameras with interchangeable lenses" to quote the actual MFT organisation itself is surely challenged when it becomes the same size as a full frame system from the same manufacturer.
We need to examine the word 'dead' in the context of what it actually means to a camera system.
It isn't 'dead' as in the absolute discontinuation of all MFT products.
Which means it isn't yet 'dead' in terms of the stated ethos of it as a format by the MFT organisation as, if nothing else, BMD have just released a camera that actually fits within those aims. We also don't know whether Panasonic might also have a camera up their sleeves (or in their pocket) that will more closely align with that ethos.
I'd say that a more appropriate word, as it currently stands, would more likely be 'moribund'.
In a hippier time, it might be described as the 'scene' being 'dead' (man).
Indicating that what it was is not currently what it is.
But what it is might well work for many people so thats all fine too.
I was using it to provide some light relief to this thread 🙂
And to show my own innate hypocrisy and how you can't really rely on the meanderings of a random old fella on the internet.
 
I emphatically agree with both of you that the notion of all MFT cameras having to be small is both a nonsense and ludicrous.
Which is why I haven't actually stated that.
Equally, the notion that all MFT cameras having to be the same size as a FF camera is also both a nonsense and ludicrous.
There is room for both.
Its just that Panasonic haven't released one for three years which was the ill fated (but actually not without its merits) G100.

With the 12-32m kit lens it was around £600 before it was discontinued and it really did fit with the ethos of MFT as we originally understood it and how the MFT organisation still describe it.
It showed that when motivated by hatred (Sony's dominance of the vlogging market) that Panasonic could still do it despite the intervening four years prior to that (the G80 launch) they had been making ever bigger bodies.
Time marches on, of course, and things change so if the price that has to be paid now (physically and literally) to move the story along from the G80 (which unlike the G100 had IBIS) in terms of video spec then so be it.
Of course, Panasonic are not the only MFT player in town so maybe Olympus will offer that alternative.
Yes, the extra reach of the 100-400 on MFT would need the Sigma 150-600 to equal on FF L mount which results in a significant size disadvantage.
This is an example where it makes sense both as a format in general anyway but also as a camera itself, if the price to pay for that performance has to be that form factor.
Thus far, it appears that it must because there is no alternative with that spec.
Maybe I will pre-order one after all 😂

I agree and I think this idea is nonsense.
I use m43, Panasonic/Sony FF, and yet I preorderer the G9II.
So why the hell I bought this "big" and "expensive" m43 camera ?
There are a few reasons :
- Neither my A7IV or S5II can give me the fantastic stabilization of the G9II with "relatively small" telephoto and super telephoto lenses.
- Neither of these FF cameras have an acceptable rolling shutter or 60fps Open Gate/120fps 4K. Yes, the A7SIII has good rolling shutter and it has 4K 120fps, but there are always trade-off (much more expensive, low MP, no crop mode,worse details in 4K 120fps).
- While they are a lot of really excellent lenses of the FE mount and a few on the L mount, m43 has a lot of jewels as well. 
I can't see me stopping using some of my Panasonic Leica or my Oly Pro lenses. Some are irremplacable like the 100-400mm PL, some are outstanding to the point that even comparable FF lenses are no match, like the two f1.7 Panasonic zooms (contrast and colors are wonderful). 
I also tried to replace my 12-32mm, 12-35mm and 35-100mm with some FF lenses on my S5II and my A7IV, I can't. There are some options for Sony to replace the 12-35mm but they are not compelling for me (weight, price or features associated with the camera).
- This is subjective but I love the colors from the GH6 and I expect the colors from the G9II to be almost the same. I don't like the colors of the S5II as much, even less the colors of the A7IV.
So at the end of the day, there is no perfect camera and system, but they have strengths and weaknesses.
No, we can't get the low light performance of the S5II on the G9II. No, we can't get the FF look at some focal lenghts (like the 50mm GM f1.2) with our m43 cameras and lenses. 
But as pointed out above, m43 gives a lot of advantage as well. And if we should use m43 only with small cameras, we could not get everything this system can offer with the G9II.

I agree and I think this idea is nonsense.
I use m43, Panasonic/Sony FF, and yet I preorderer the G9II.
So why the hell I bought this "big" and "expensive" m43 camera ?
There are a few reasons :
- Neither my A7IV or S5II can give me the fantastic stabilization of the G9II with "relatively small" telephoto and super telephoto lenses.
- Neither of these FF cameras have an acceptable rolling shutter or 60fps Open Gate/120fps 4K. Yes, the A7SIII has good rolling shutter and it has 4K 120fps, but there are always trade-off (much more expensive, low MP, no crop mode,worse details in 4K 120fps).
- While they are a lot of really excellent lenses of the FE mount and a few on the L mount, m43 has a lot of jewels as well. 
I can't see me stopping using some of my Panasonic Leica or my Oly Pro lenses. Some are irremplacable like the 100-400mm PL, some are outstanding to the point that even comparable FF lenses are no match, like the two f1.7 Panasonic zooms (contrast and colors are wonderful). 
I also tried to replace my 12-32mm, 12-35mm and 35-100mm with some FF lenses on my S5II and my A7IV, I can't. There are some options for Sony to replace the 12-35mm but they are not compelling for me (weight, price or features associated with the camera).
- This is subjective but I love the colors from the GH6 and I expect the colors from the G9II to be almost the same. I don't like the colors of the S5II as much, even less the colors of the A7IV.
So at the end of the day, there is no perfect camera and system, but they have strengths and weaknesses.
No, we can't get the low light performance of the S5II on the G9II. No, we can't get the FF look at some focal lenghts (like the 50mm GM f1.2) with our m43 cameras and lenses. 
But as pointed out above, m43 gives a lot of advantage as well. And if we should use m43 only with small cameras, we could not get everything this system can offer with the G9II.

I agree and I think this idea is nonsense.
I use m43, Panasonic/Sony FF, and yet I preorderer the G9II.
So why the hell I bought this "big" and "expensive" m43 camera ?
There are a few reasons :
- Neither my A7IV or S5II can give me the fantastic stabilization of the G9II with "relatively small" telephoto and super telephoto lenses.
- Neither of these FF cameras have an acceptable rolling shutter or 60fps Open Gate/120fps 4K. Yes, the A7SIII has good rolling shutter and it has 4K 120fps, but there are always trade-off (much more expensive, low MP, no crop mode,worse details in 4K 120fps).
- While they are a lot of really excellent lenses of the FE mount and a few on the L mount, m43 has a lot of jewels as well. 
I can't see me stopping using some of my Panasonic Leica or my Oly Pro lenses. Some are irremplacable like the 100-400mm PL, some are outstanding to the point that even comparable FF lenses are no match, like the two f1.7 Panasonic zooms (contrast and colors are wonderful). 
I also tried to replace my 12-32mm, 12-35mm and 35-100mm with some FF lenses on my S5II and my A7IV, I can't. There are some options for Sony to replace the 12-35mm but they are not compelling for me (weight, price or features associated with the camera).
- This is subjective but I love the colors from the GH6 and I expect the colors from the G9II to be almost the same. I don't like the colors of the S5II as much, even less the colors of the A7IV.
So at the end of the day, there is no perfect camera and system, but they have strengths and weaknesses.
No, we can't get the low light performance of the S5II on the G9II. No, we can't get the FF look at some focal lenghts (like the 50mm GM f1.2) with our m43 cameras and lenses. 
But as pointed out above, m43 gives a lot of advantage as well. And if we should use m43 only with small cameras, we could not get everything this system can offer with the G9II.

I agree and I think this idea is nonsense.
I use m43, Panasonic/Sony FF, and yet I preorderer the G9II.
So why the hell I bought this "big" and "expensive" m43 camera ?
There are a few reasons :
- Neither my A7IV or S5II can give me the fantastic stabilization of the G9II with "relatively small" telephoto and super telephoto lenses.
- Neither of these FF cameras have an acceptable rolling shutter or 60fps Open Gate/120fps 4K. Yes, the A7SIII has good rolling shutter and it has 4K 120fps, but there are always trade-off (much more expensive, low MP, no crop mode,worse details in 4K 120fps).
- While they are a lot of really excellent lenses of the FE mount and a few on the L mount, m43 has a lot of jewels as well. 
I can't see me stopping using some of my Panasonic Leica or my Oly Pro lenses. Some are irremplacable like the 100-400mm PL, some are outstanding to the point that even comparable FF lenses are no match, like the two f1.7 Panasonic zooms (contrast and colors are wonderful). 
I also tried to replace my 12-32mm, 12-35mm and 35-100mm with some FF lenses on my S5II and my A7IV, I can't. There are some options for Sony to replace the 12-35mm but they are not compelling for me (weight, price or features associated with the camera).
- This is subjective but I love the colors from the GH6 and I expect the colors from the G9II to be almost the same. I don't like the colors of the S5II as much, even less the colors of the A7IV.
So at the end of the day, there is no perfect camera and system, but they have strengths and weaknesses.
No, we can't get the low light performance of the S5II on the G9II. No, we can't get the FF look at some focal lenghts (like the 50mm GM f1.2) with our m43 cameras and lenses. 
But as pointed out above, m43 gives a lot of advantage as well. And if we should use m43 only with small cameras, we could not get everything this system can offer with the G9II.

I have to humbly Disagree with the idea that All M43 Cameras must be Tiny or Pocketable. That's Lucrous.
Apple has the distinction of making smartphones that make claims that they can shoot Arri Video Quality or Prosumer or Professional Photo Quality, at a fraction of the price, but there isn't really much truth to that. Regardless of what Hollywood director, whose film has been sponsored by Apple, tells that to you.
 
While almost everyone ALSO wants a GM5 sized Panasonic (especially since Fuji and Ricoh make some superb point and shoot cameras), all Panasonic need not be tiny. They would have issues with overheating, and other issues and look rather amatuer on a Professional shoot. 
 
I am comparing the GM5 to the Netflix Approved Sony FX3, the A7Siii, and the Fuji X100v.
 
Panasonic needs the GH, the G and the GM lineups (hopefully something with the GX85's IBIS, but much smaller, probably with 10 minutes recording times).
 

Right, now I get it.
Throughout this thread I thought that people were saying "Look how huge it is.....   by giving it the body of the S5 they made it huge" when actually they were saying "Look at how the mk2 is the same size as the mk1 - that's outrageous - every camera update should be drastically smaller!"
TBH, if we're going to judge everyone that didn't give us what they could have given us, we'd all better be saving up for an Alexa, because the people who worked on every other camera released in the history of the world are going in front of a firing squad tomorrow at dawn.

Respectfully, if you are a fan of the format, you wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops that it's dead.
I understand that tough love is a pillar of journalism (and one that is sadly lacking at the moment) but there's a point where it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.  Your blog likely has more influence than you think, and if so, you're adding nails to the coffin instead of making it stronger.

Yes I'm on the latest firmware. I was very keen to see what the 6K/5.9K looked like...glorious! Anyway, yes I think bringing the highlights down might be my own undoing, thinking it's "better" in a way when it's probably not. Just knocked it back a touch to -1 to see if that helps. Boosted saturation back a touch too, I find when underexposing the colour tends to disappear so anything I can do to negate that helps.
I do like Cine V, colours are nice especially skin tones, but still just a touch too punchy for my liking when I am grading on top later. I use a slightly tweaked Cine V for quick turnaround jobs where no grading is required. 

Yes like I said (a lot of times 😅) the S5II uses nasty temporal noise and chroma noise reduction in low light with the 709 profiles even at -5, the difference with the S1 and S5 is stricking, especially on skin. There is also too much sharpening in 6K with these profiles, even at -5, it's night and day with the S1.
This is the first thing I noticed when I bought the S5II some months ago. Maybe (I'm not sure) the S1 and S5 use slight temporal noise reduction with the 709 profiles but it doesn't impact the details at all unlike the S5II.
Now I only use V-Log on the S5II because of the smearing and the over-sharpening of the 709 profiles, and I always overexpose by two stops like you did, it can change the colors and the highlights rendering a bit but this way it definitely gives lower noise, and like you said V-Log is free of smearing as long as you use 0 NR and 0 sharpness. 
Thank you for the Lut, I will try it.
Yes I hope Panasonic will fix the 709 profiles, for now I still use the S1 for low light but I miss the S5II AF.


 

I have some more good news and spoiler alert: You may want to get the paid RAW update.

BRAW is now completely fixed it seems. No more sharpening, no more filtering and mushy textures.
Instead more texture, both luma and chroma than recording internally and at least 1-2 stops of more usable latitude since the shadow areas are clean now and highlight recovery seems to give one extra clean stop of highlight range.
 
BRAW with highlight recovery

 
Internal H265/H264/ProRes

Z8 does make R5 look dated, Canon and Sony better have stacked sensor for their next cam at this price range with 45mp+ sensor.
 

For me, the S5 (and the S1) is still a great camera, the AF is good for photos. For video it's OK if you have enough DOF or if you use 4K 60fps. 
I have both the S5 and the S5II and I much prefer the video quality of the S5 with most profiles. The S5II has too much details processing for my taste, except in V-Log.

For me, the S5 (and the S1) is still a great camera, the AF is good for photos. For video it's OK if you have enough DOF or if you use 4K 60fps. 
I have both the S5 and the S5II and I much prefer the video quality of the S5 with most profiles. The S5II has too much details processing for my taste, except in V-Log.

Why ? To see that both the A7III and S5II can't be sharpened (in camera or in post) because of the huge amount of noise reduction and detals filtering. The bad light is used to see how the cameras perform in difficult situations and how they use their noise reduction algorithm.

Seriously I can see the difference even when viewing in 1080P, both the A7III and the S5II smooth details a lot compared to the S5, to the point that adding sharpness in post just look like upscaled from a lower resolution.
If you can't see the difference and use the Panasonic standard profiles, you can buy the camera with confidence, but personally I see a big difference with the previous Panasonic S cameras. It is the most aggressive NR, and over sharpening (especially in 6K) i've ever seen on any Panasonic camera to date.

guys, just grab an R7 and go outside and shoot already!

I believe they will, or will at least be surprised if they do not.
My ‘prediction’ is they will skip the direct S1 replacement and go for a twin pairing of next gen S1R and S1H with the S5ii fulfilling the place of the S1.
I have zero idea re. their figures but the sales of the S1R especially cannot have been great? That camera is criminally under-regarded.
Ditto the S1H. My second one turned up today and is charging. 1800 euros, condition ‘excellent’. When the S5iix comes out, prices of used S1H’s will drop even further but IMO, it may be 4 years old, but it’s a better camera in every regard except the obvious AF.
I would like to see and almost certainly would upgrade to ‘S2H’s at some point, but part of me also doesn’t really care because there is nothing more I actually need, just would like.

I think we may be getting to the point where the number of things the market is expecting/hoping to be fixed soon via firmware may be outstripping how many things I reasonably expect can be addressed in a single firmware (or several firmwares in a short timeframe).
I would love for the banding, oversharpening, smoothing, AF performance, and maybe even rolling shutter to be addressed/improved by the time my preorderd S5IIX comes in in 2-2.5 months, but I am losing faith in that happening.
AF on my S1 has actually been behaving itself recently so maybe I'll tell myself to wait until the S2 or S2H is announced.

Also cameras such as the Canon R6II or Sony FX6/FX9 don't have any of these crazy NR and oversharpening issues despite using Phase AF.

It's not a hardware issue but an image processing flaw.

I don't think the issue is Phase Detect because V-Log on the S5II (while sharper than before) has not the insane sharpening and chroma noise reduction that the standard profiles have.
Moreover, nor my A7III and IV smooth details like this at low ISO and yet they use Phase detect.
There are just bad processing going on internaly on the standard profiles with the S5II.

About the GH6, I've not used it a lot but even with HLG and V-Log (H265) and I feel the details rendering is slightly different compared to the GH5, maybe because of some details filtering ("Intelligent detail filtering" from Panasonic) but there is a difference, like if the GH6 smooths and sharpens some details in the same time, a bit like with the S5II standard profiles but far less pronounced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55RygnQqAbU
I think Deezid used the GH6 a lot more than me thought and said Prores has less noise reduction so maybe the details rendering is better than with H265. 
These days, many brands use a lot sharpening and different type of noise reduction, sadly most of the time there is no way to disable them.
It is true that there is no chance your clients could spot the loss of details, but I use Panasonic cameras since a very long time and I loved the way I could crop or extract picture from my videos while retaining a lot of details, like a true Jpeg picture without too much noise processing or digital sharpening. We can't do this anymore with the S5II standard profiles because there are too much processing going on internally, exactly like on smartphones.

Get a cheap 4k cam instead, if funds are low. Much better than any phone and much cheaper than a XH2! 😂
Used Lumix G9 does perfect 4K 10bit HLG for 500 USD, additional VLog profile per purchase possible. Awesome former flagship camera with all bells and whistles. G85 does nice 4K for 300 USD, GX85 for 200.
Much cheaper than 8K XH2 and a 8K TV. 😂
That saves you lotta funds.
And saves the planet too a tiny bit:)