Beritar

On 11/15/2023 at 2:10 AM, kye said:

I've seen people saying that the G9ii is the best MFT camera ever made by Panasonic, so the comparison is being made.  

Of course, this leaves lots of room for improvement, as the GH6 has advantages over the G9ii, so an updated GH-line with full-sized body could exceed both, and a smaller bodied GX-line with some trickle-down features would also be a significant improvement to that line.

Yes, mostly because the AF is much better than the GH6, much faster and accurate, no more out of focus bug, nor pulsing in Open Gate mode. The GH6 was so bad when using low frame rate or when using Open Gate that I used much more my old GH5.

Also the G9II is significantly lighter than the GH6. Like you, I would like a GX9II (without 4K crop), I bet it could sell very well.
However, I still don't like the fine detail rendering in video compared to the previous Panasonic cameras like the S5/S1/S1H and GH5/G9. Since the GH6, the "improved" Intelligent Detail Filter makes the fine details very plastic in low light IMHO.

I just got my G9II today.

So far, the AF is very good, I only tested the camera with two lenses, but the issues I had on the GH6 (pulsing, and out of focus bug) seem solved. The camera shows 1.0 firwmare, so maybe Panasonic has improved the focus since the beta firmware.

On 10/12/2023 at 1:51 PM, Beritar said:

The little 20mm performs pretty well on this video. Much better than on the previous Panasonic cameras.

However I'm concerned about the G9II focus accuracy in video, I watched and downloaded some clips and a lot of times the focus is not 100% accurate when viewing at 1:1, exactly like on my GH6 with most of my lenses when using slow frame rate in 4K/C4K/5,7K (below 48fps). It seems to affect only some lenses on the G9II, mostly the zooms.

Nevertheless, I decided to preorder the camera because I'm not a fan of the GH6 ( (outside of the very nice colors).
I have some great M43 lenses, so some features like the improved IBIS, DRBOOST at base ISO or even the come back of the I-Dynamic are very welcome. I just hope they will fix the AF, I also hope the IBIS in 5,7K and Open Gate are improved as well, because on the GH6, they are weakier than on 4K.

I quote myself because I just watched a G9II video of a real user. And like I've noticed in some early reviews, the author of the video confirms that the G9II focus has some accuracy issues.
Exactly like on my GH6, the camera went out of focus when the recording button is pressed in 4K-C4K,5,7K at 24/25/30fps. On the G9II, even 60fps seems to have the issue.

The author of the video says : "One more thing, on two shots like on the first one, the camera went out of focus when I pressed the recording button and stayed there, although I was using continuous auto focus. It seems to be a bug as well but this was the first time I experienced it".

Also, like on the GH6, the IBIS is still worse in 5,7K :

Some videos about the GH6 AF accuracy issue : 

1 minute ago, John Matthews said:

Ok. I've decided to wait a little longer for the G9 ii. I want to see how things shake out. Also, this camera is so popular that I'm fairly sure demand will be high and I won't even get it till mid November at the earliest... when I'll be heavily into work. I'll just go a little longer with the E-M1 ii and GX800. Other than the slow motion, they fit the bill for me right now. Make no mistake, I really want this camera though. It'll be available soon enough.

I did the same. I'm pretty sure the camera will be available very soon and I prefer to wait for more users reviews. 
The price is relatively high for a M43 camera so I want more information on the DR, RS, and if they removed or not their digital low pass filter (intelligent detail filtering) like on the GH6. 

6 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Just thinking through a big camera and small camera setup in terms of lenses, I think it makes sense to alternate between "pro" lenses and "consumer" lenses throughout the popular focal lengths. For example in MFT,

fisheye, 10, 12, 17, 25, 42.5, 75, 150, 300 (or more)

This would allow to mix and match better and have the right tool for the job. In the past, I thought I'd just copy the focal range for the pro and consumer camera, having the same focal range in both, understand better the focal length and essentially working consistently. For example,

Pro: 12-35, 35-100, 200 (don't have any of these lenses)

Consumer: 12-32, 35-100

Conversely, one could just choose the 10-25 and 25-50 (don't have those either) to cover most of the focal range, then choose small primes on the consumer side.

Maybe some could double as a lens in both situations (example, use the 9mm for both pro and consumer if it passes mustard).

Fact: the G9 ii is big for MFT; maybe the features will mitigate this, but the need for a smaller camera (for me) is necessary. The question is: which focal lengths should be pro and which should be consumer and not let the size of the g9 ii to get "out of hand".

I just curious to know what you would do if you need two systems (big and small), what would you choose/have you chosen?

 

I have both the 10-25mm and the 25-50mm, these lenses are the pinnacle of M43.
Sure, they are very sharp, not extraordinary sharp as my 35mm GM, my 50mm S Pro or even my 24-70mm S Pro, but they are among the best you can find in M43. No, what make them special, apart from their focal range is their rendering.
Their local contrast (and colors in my opinion) is crazy good, especially the 25-50mm, one of my favorite lens ever.

I also have some of the fast little primes like the 20mm f1.7 II, the 15mm f1.7 and the 25mm f1.4 II.
They are not as sharp as the PanaLeica f1.7 zooms, but, the 20mm f1.7 is tiny, produce nice colors with good global contrast, and the image has a very good sense of volume, it is why so many people love it. The focus is slow and noisy (really noisy), but accurate, and from what I've seen the G9II makes the AF almost usable (certainly usable for me).
The 15mm and the 25mm are more expensive, slightly bigger, slightly less sharp wide open (especially the 25mm f1.4 which can be nice for video), but their AF is faster. 
They have not the same sense of volume as the 20mm in my opinion but they have solid local contrast, thought not as good as the Oly 25mm f1.2 Pro by exemple.

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

That was ONE of the annoying parts about the GH6. The C4k 120fps was often a completely different aspect ratio from the rest... a lack of UHD meant you were either cropping the 120fps footage or making the entire project in C4k. It was a strange limitation. The GH6 seemed to do everything, but not that. Maybe it'll be fixed in firmware.

No, the GH6 is able to do 4K 120fps as well. 
The issue is with 5,7K, only available in 17:9.

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

The one thing that bugs me about the S5 ii is possible moiré. I've never seen it on the GH6 and I bet the G9 ii will be the same. The GH6 has been a little too quirky for me in that DR Boost needed to be set on or off. I don't like that.

I have the GH6, S5 and S5II. I don't see more moiré on the S5II compared to the S5. What I see on the S5II is more edge sharpening and worse fine details. Again, if you don't crop I don't think you can see a big difference.

The GH6 on the other hand is less prone to moiré, but since the S5, Panasonic uses some processing to minimize moiré :

"Intelligent detail processing eliminates the need for a low-pass filter and smooths fine details like hair and wires to minimize moiré patterns". 

On the GH6 the result is pretty good but maybe a bit too strong compared to their other cameras, the moiré is most of the time eliminated, but this is the same for some fine details. When I compare my video from my G9, GH5 and GH6, depending of the scene, the GH6 has often less fine details when looking them at 100%, especially in low light. At first I thought it was noise reduction, but the noise structure is very nice and seems unaltered. 
This is a sort of digital OLPF.

There is no miracle, in order to have the best picture (similar to a picture raw file), the less processing is always better, but moiré is certainly an issue for most people. It is why the Panasonic S1H has probably the nicest video quality from a camera below 4000$, details are less processed than the GH6 or the S5II, and the OLPF eleminates the moiré without looking unnatural. 

 

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

That was an interesting comparison but also rather limited being at some show. The conclusion for him was to say the FX30 was the best because, even though it lacks good IBIS, the "photos are amazing" and costs a little less. I'm finding that rather curious because FX30 lacks an actual shutter, meaning it can't even do flash photography, a basic feature for almost any "photo" camera... maybe it can, but I couldn't find any info on it. Also, he talks about M43 not doing well in low-light, which is not accurate due to their amazing IBIS (maybe he meant "high ISO"?). That was a very confusing review for me.

As far as "detail rendering", I never had any problem with the GH6; nor did I notice anything. Maybe if you A-B with another camera, it's different. If anything, I'd say the trouble with GH6 is the implementation of DR Boost. The rolling shutter on the GH6 was definitely NOT an issue either, especially with IBIS enabled.

The difference of the details rendering is really apparent only when cropping.
And yes the rolling shutter on the GH6 is good, I'm curious to see if the G9II is worse. I can't find any number/measure on the net.

I've found this interesting video comparing the G9II to some Nikon, Fuji and Sony cameras.
IBIS looks fantastic on the G9II, colors look as great as the GH6 and focus is very fast with the 12-60mm PL.

However, exactly like my GH6 in low light (and my S5II with most PP), I really don't like the details rendering of the G9II.
On the video, the woman has freckles and it's perfect to see the rendering of fine details. What I see is a a mix of smoothing and sharpening resulting in a very bad image (especially when cropping) in my opinion.
The Nikon cameras are even worse. Fine details are totally destroyed, exactly like on my good old Samsung NX1.
I'm glad I never bought Nikon cameras for video.
Sony is Sony, as always, the rolling shutter is bad, the IBIS is average, but the details rendering is much closer than what we had on the first gen S1 and S5, much closer to a raw picture without artifice.

It's always nice to see the IBIS, rolling shutter AF etc compared, but for me one of the most important thing is the pure image quality, including colors and details.
I understand some people like very soft image in video, but to my eyes the G9II (and the Z9/Z8) just doesn't look good, of course YMMV.
 

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

I see that in the reviews everyone uses the 12-35 or the 12-60 or telephoto lenses. 
I'd like to see how it performs with older lumix lenses. I use the 20 mm F1.7 and the Leica 45 mm F2.8 macro a lot. They have terrible motors and are very slow in focusing. I don't know how they will behave with PDAF and whether Lumix has released FW updates yet. If they haven't, they would be junk.

The little 20mm performs pretty well on this video. Much better than on the previous Panasonic cameras.

However I'm concerned about the G9II focus accuracy in video, I watched and downloaded some clips and a lot of times the focus is not 100% accurate when viewing at 1:1, exactly like on my GH6 with most of my lenses when using slow frame rate in 4K/C4K/5,7K (below 48fps). It seems to affect only some lenses on the G9II, mostly the zooms.

Nevertheless, I decided to preorder the camera because I'm not a fan of the GH6 ( (outside of the very nice colors).
I have some great M43 lenses, so some features like the improved IBIS, DRBOOST at base ISO or even the come back of the I-Dynamic are very welcome. I just hope they will fix the AF, I also hope the IBIS in 5,7K and Open Gate are improved as well, because on the GH6, they are weakier than on 4K.

I have the same issue with my S1 but never with my S5II since I bought it (at launch). And yet, I rarely use it, so I would have noticed. I simply don't like the image quality compared to the previous S cameras.

I just watched this video comparing the G9 to G9II autofocus.

Reading so much people in the comments saying the new AF is fantastic make me wonder they should just use 1080P cameras at best.
I downloaded the video to zoom inside a bit, and while the G9II focus faster than the G9, accuracy is much worse.
During the comparison with the 35-100mm, most of the time, the focus is not on his face but on his sweater (like at 2:26 or 3:36), making his face with even less details than a 1080P camera.
I saw the same issue with another G9II video when using the 12-35mm, 35-100mm and 10-25mm.

What the point to have a 4K camera with faster AF if the accuracy is not good ?

I wanted to pre-order the camera but I will wait to see if Panasonic can solve the issue. I had too much issue with my GH6 using Open Gate (much more pulsing than my GH5) or when using frame rates <48fps with most of my lenses (defocusing issue). Panasonic never corrected them.

On 9/17/2023 at 8:41 AM, kye said:

There is an optimum resolution and sharpness.  More is not always better.  
This is why movies aren't all shot with the highest MTF lenses currently available - DoPs choose the optimal lenses and apertures for the scene / project.

However, I shoot with cheap cameras (iPhone, GX85, GH5, etc) which are far too sharp, and look video-ish.  Luckily, we can reduce this in post.

This thread is me trying to work out:

• What the range of optimal resolution / sharpnesses are actually out there (from serious professionals, not moronic camera YouTubers or internet forum pedants)
• What might be a good point to aim for
• How I might treat iPhone / GX85 / other cheap shitty video-looking footage so it looks the least video it can be

These techniques will likely apply to all semi-decent consumer cameras, and should be able to be adjusted to taste.

I'm still at the beginning of this journey, and am still working out how to even tackle it, but I thought I'd start with some examples of what we're talking about.

Reference stills from the Atlas Lens Co demos from their official YT channel, shot on Komodo and uploaded 6 months ago:

(You have to click on these images to expand them, otherwise you're just looking at the forum compression...)

Reference stills from the Cooke SP3 demos from the official Cooke YT channel, uploaded 11 days ago:

I've deliberately chosen frames that have fine detail (especially fly-away hair lit with a significant contrast to what is behind it), in perfect focus, with zero motion blur.  I think this is the most revealing as it tends to be the thing that is right at the limits of the optical system.

So, what are we seeing here?

We're seeing things in focus, with reasonable fine detail.  It doesn't look SHARP, it doesn't look BLURRED, it doesn't look VINTAGE, it doesn't overly look MODERN (to me at least) and doesn't look UNNATURAL.  It looks nice, and it definitely looks high quality and makes me want to own the camera/lens combo (!) but it basically looks neutral.

But, that's not always the case.  This is also from the same Cooke SP3 promo video:

The fine detail is gone, despite there being lots of it in the scene.  Is this the lens?  Is this the post-pipeline?  We don't know, but it's a desirable enough image for Cooke (one of the premier cinema lens manufacturers in the world) to put it in their 2.5 minute demo reel on their official main page.  It also has a bit more feel than the previous images.

Contrast that with these SOOC shots from my iPhone 12 Mini:

I mean....  seriously!  

(If you're not basically dry-wrenching then you haven't opened the image up to view it full-screen.. the compressed in-line images are very tastefully smoothed over by the compression)

More:

and my X3000 action camera also has this problem:

Those with long memories will recall I've been down this road before, but I feel like I have gained enough knowledge to be able to have a decent stab at it this time.  We'll see anyway.

Follow along if you're open to the idea that more isn't better...

About the GH5 being too sharp, have you tried the Open Gate mode of the GH5 ? I don't speak about the 6K photo but the 6K anamorphic. I've found the amount of details very good without too much sharpening with this mode.

This is just my opinion but I don't like the internal details rendering of the new Panasonic cameras like the S5II, I find the details "rough", like if a mix of noise reduction and sharpening is used.

8 hours ago, sanveer said:

I have to humbly Disagree with the idea that All M43 Cameras must be Tiny or Pocketable. That's Lucrous.

Apple has the distinction of making smartphones that make claims that they can shoot Arri Video Quality or Prosumer or Professional Photo Quality, at a fraction of the price, but there isn't really much truth to that. Regardless of what Hollywood director, whose film has been sponsored by Apple, tells that to you.

 

While almost everyone ALSO wants a GM5 sized Panasonic (especially since Fuji and Ricoh make some superb point and shoot cameras), all Panasonic need not be tiny. They would have issues with overheating, and other issues and look rather amatuer on a Professional shoot. 

 

I am comparing the GM5 to the Netflix Approved Sony FX3, the A7Siii, and the Fuji X100v.

 

Panasonic needs the GH, the G and the GM lineups (hopefully something with the GX85's IBIS, but much smaller, probably with 10 minutes recording times).

 

I agree and I think this idea is nonsense.

I use m43, Panasonic/Sony FF, and yet I preorderer the G9II.
So why the hell I bought this "big" and "expensive" m43 camera ?

There are a few reasons :

- Neither my A7IV or S5II can give me the fantastic stabilization of the G9II with "relatively small" telephoto and super telephoto lenses.

- Neither of these FF cameras have an acceptable rolling shutter or 60fps Open Gate/120fps 4K. Yes, the A7SIII has good rolling shutter and it has 4K 120fps, but there are always trade-off (much more expensive, low MP, no crop mode,worse details in 4K 120fps).

- While they are a lot of really excellent lenses of the FE mount and a few on the L mount, m43 has a lot of jewels as well. 
I can't see me stopping using some of my Panasonic Leica or my Oly Pro lenses. Some are irremplacable like the 100-400mm PL, some are outstanding to the point that even comparable FF lenses are no match, like the two f1.7 Panasonic zooms (contrast and colors are wonderful). 
I also tried to replace my 12-32mm, 12-35mm and 35-100mm with some FF lenses on my S5II and my A7IV, I can't. There are some options for Sony to replace the 12-35mm but they are not compelling for me (weight, price or features associated with the camera).

- This is subjective but I love the colors from the GH6 and I expect the colors from the G9II to be almost the same. I don't like the colors of the S5II as much, even less the colors of the A7IV.

So at the end of the day, there is no perfect camera and system, but they have strengths and weaknesses.
No, we can't get the low light performance of the S5II on the G9II. No, we can't get the FF look at some focal lenghts (like the 50mm GM f1.2) with our m43 cameras and lenses. 
But as pointed out above, m43 gives a lot of advantage as well. And if we should use m43 only with small cameras, we could not get everything this system can offer with the G9II.

Hi,

I think I have an issue with my GH6. I have not used this camera a lot because I mostly use my S1 and my S5II but there is something weird about the AF-C in video. Something I never seen on any cameras I've owned and one of the reason I always found the camera to be very soft in video.

Here is my issue :

When I use AF-C in video ("Continuous AF"), the AF is fast but it is not accurate. Whatever the AF (speed/sentitivity) settings or the AF mode I use ("1-zone" on the video I've posted).
I can clearly see the difference when cropping inside the videos in 4K/C4K and 5,7K below 48fps (24/25/30fps). Everything above 30fps works well (48/50/60/100/120fps), 5,8K  Open Gate 30fps works well too but with a lot of pulsing (the Open Gate on my GH5 is faster and has less pulsing).

The most surprising is before recording (with "Continuous AF" "Mode 2" activated), the focus is perfect, but right away when I press the rec button the focus become innacurate.
The AF-C is still working but it is innacurate. Easy to see with the "Enlarged Live display(Video)" function. I can still get accurate focus while recording but I need to use AF-ON or to push the shutter button to force the camera to get the good focus while recording, but of course it's not a solution.

I own some M43 lenses (Pana 10-25mm, 25-50mm, 15mm, 25mm II, 12-32mm, 100-400mm, Oly 25mm Pro, Oly 45mm Pro) and all my lenses are impacted but not the 25mm f1.4 II. This is the only lens to have accurate AF-C in video when using frame rate below 48fps, no need to press the AF-ON button, so it's really weird.

All the lenses and the GH6 have their last firmware. I have of course tried to reset the camera. "Focus limiter" is off. 5,8K Open Gate and Burst photo AF-C have accurate focus (as well as every video modes above 30fps).

A exemple of the issue with the 10-25mm in 4K 30fps and 5,9K 30fps. In 4K 30fps the continuous AF is not accurate unless I push the AF-On button. In 5,9K, there is a lot more pulsing but the focus is accurate.

So, either my sample is defective (but why only with C4K, 4K, 5,7K below 48fps ?) either the GH6 has a big issue with the AF. Maybe someone using the GH6 could test ?
Thank you.

22 hours ago, Framed_By_Dan said:

Yes I'm on the latest firmware. I was very keen to see what the 6K/5.9K looked like...glorious! Anyway, yes I think bringing the highlights down might be my own undoing, thinking it's "better" in a way when it's probably not. Just knocked it back a touch to -1 to see if that helps. Boosted saturation back a touch too, I find when underexposing the colour tends to disappear so anything I can do to negate that helps.

I do like Cine V, colours are nice especially skin tones, but still just a touch too punchy for my liking when I am grading on top later. I use a slightly tweaked Cine V for quick turnaround jobs where no grading is required. 

I agree, 6K/5,9K on the S1 is just fantastic. 
Yes Cine-V is great for skin tones, I use this profile when I want nice skin tones or when I shoot in low light since the GH4, usually I bring the contrast down a bit and the image looks great.

11 hours ago, Framed_By_Dan said:

Hmm, I have to disagree, I still think there's something going on with the S1 footage. I use Natural tweaked a bit and it's definitely a bit plasticy looking compared to V-Log. Skin texture doesn't shine through the same either.

My settings for Natural are as follows:

Contrast -5

Highlight -2

Shadow +0.5

Saturation -3

Hue -0.5

Sharpness -5

NR - 5

I definitely felt the profile out the box was much more contrasty and had increased saturation compared to the GH line and have spent a bit of time getting them to match fairly closely. One other thing I noticed significantly is the terrible highlight roll off compared to the GH5/GH5S. Perhaps I'm exposing my image wrong/overexposing more on the S1 but if the meter shows anything beyond +2/3 over the highlights clip easily. I have to be super cautious. Compare that to when I shoot my GH5/GH5S/GH5 II (GH5 II especially) I can be pretty confident going to about +1, +1 2/3 and still not having super harsh clipped highlights. 

Most of the time the information is still there to reign in the highlights through a curves adjustment in post but I'd rather get fairly close in camera if I can. It's just a bit off putting when filming. 

Am I pushing the adjustments to the profile too far? I recently shot Flat with no adjustments except sharpness and NR down and it looked great (save for the highlights still being a bit hot). Some aspects of the colour came out a bit better too, however I can't completely switch to Flat due to having a couple of the older bodies in my fleet which don't have Flat.

I have thought if I replace my GH5 with an S5IIX and shoot with a baked in Rec709 conversion (I like Davinci's CST for V-Log) that could be a way round it. Trouble is minimum ISO of 640 and I don't have time to use ND on run and gun shoots such as weddings.

Do you use the last firmware on your S1 ? 
I never use the "Highlight" setting because it can quickly make the skin looking plastic.
Have you tried Cine-V ? This is the profile I use the most in low light and there is absolutely no difference in detail rendering between Cine-V and V-Log on my S1 with the last firmware.

On 5/24/2023 at 1:36 PM, hyalinejim said:

Yes, but I was talking about noise. Presumably, S1 709 is cleaner than S1 V-Log? I don't have an S1 so I don't know.

On the S5II it works, at least for the only L mount lens I own. Perspective is on by default and vignetting is user selectable.

Yes S1 709 is cleaner than S1 V-log but I don't understand how the S1 can keep every details without altered them if there is noise reduction. I only see noise, no sign of noise reduction. In any case, the S5II uses a different sort of noise reduction, much more aggresive with fine details.

Vignetting is corrected on the S5II but not chromatic abberations. On my 85mm Lumix S, I have a lot of them in V-log. In 709, they are corrected automatically.

10 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

It's worth pointing out again that the S1 must also be applying temporal noise reduction in 709 profiles, and if that's the look you're after you can achieve it by doing some NR in post for V-Log footage.

You should try to see the difference at 1:1 between your S1 with the last firwmare and your S5II with the 709 profiles and V-Log (like you did with Natural and V-Log on the S5II). I can assure you there is no difference with fine details on the S1 between V-Log and the 709 profiles, so if the S1 uses a sort of noise reduction, it's a very good one !

I used a lot of cameras and It's pretty easy to see when a camera uses temporal noise reduction, the details are inevitably altered, the same way as if you use noise reduction for stills, fine details become more "plastic".
While I liked these cameras, BMPCC 4K prores, NX1, NX500, G85, A7III, A7IV, A7SIII, and now the S5II in rec 709, they all used noise reduction and there was no way to disable it in video. NR destroys fine details to some extent (NX cameras were the most aggresive).
On the other hand, BMPCC 4K raw (of course) GH5, GX9 (very noisy), GH6 (only in Prores with both NR and sharpening at -5), S1 and S5, all these cameras don't show (or very few) altered details, just noise.

About the "look", since the first time I used V-Log in 2017 with the GH5, I tried to remove noise while conserving very fine details, I never succeded. It always end up like the cameras I listed earlier, noise is somewhat removed but the details too. And I don't speak about the time consumed to denoise the footage, Neat Video needs a very good computer to work in 6k, the loss of lens correction in V-log is also a problem, it is why most of the time I was shooting in rec 709 in low light with the S1.

4 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Yes, you're right - it is! Natural looks wonderfully smooth in comparison. It must be doing some pretty serious temporal noise reduction, even with NR at -10... and on the S5 and S1 I would guess it's the same, but without the smearing and detail loss.

There is definitely an advantage to using the method I describe for V-Log. I checked, and V-Log ISO 25600 pulled 2.66 stops is cleaner than V-Log ISO 4000 (as long as NR is at 0). So for regular V-Log shooters it means that it's better to ETTR even going up to very high ISOs rather than sticking at, say, 4000 and leaving that highlight headroom empty.

4000:

 

25600 pulled down 2.66 stops:

And you @Beritar this pushing of V-Log right to its upper limit using ISO will give you cleaner footage than just using V-Log at the metered exposure. It will be not-as-clean as Natural (which may be unNaturally clean 😉) but it will be unsmeared.

 

Try this LUT for getting V-Log close-ish to Natural:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gqigXKnLl8T2zT6KswA2ruLvG6bbqORc/view?usp=share_link
The colour isn't quite the same but the curve is.

Anyway, fingers crossed that these and other issues will be fixed in the 2.0 firmware update in June!

Yes like I said (a lot of times 😅) the S5II uses nasty temporal noise and chroma noise reduction in low light with the 709 profiles even at -5, the difference with the S1 and S5 is stricking, especially on skin. There is also too much sharpening in 6K with these profiles, even at -5, it's night and day with the S1.
This is the first thing I noticed when I bought the S5II some months ago. Maybe (I'm not sure) the S1 and S5 use slight temporal noise reduction with the 709 profiles but it doesn't impact the details at all unlike the S5II.

Now I only use V-Log on the S5II because of the smearing and the over-sharpening of the 709 profiles, and I always overexpose by two stops like you did, it can change the colors and the highlights rendering a bit but this way it definitely gives lower noise, and like you said V-Log is free of smearing as long as you use 0 NR and 0 sharpness. 

Thank you for the Lut, I will try it.
Yes I hope Panasonic will fix the 709 profiles, for now I still use the S1 for low light but I miss the S5II AF.

11 hours ago, hyalinejim said:

Not if you ignore the meter! V-Log at base ISO 640 is simply ISO 100 pushed 2.66 stops to give extra highlight headroom. If you push it back down it should be just as clean as the regular profiles at ISO 100.

So you don't need more light at all you need to re-think ISO and metering.

In a situation where you would have shot Natural at 6400 you would add 2.66 stops to the ISO and shoot V-Log at 40000, then push the exposure back down with the real time LUT.

You can make a lut like this right now with LutCalc:

And then you will have a Rec709 file with low noise and none of the artifacts (and none of the highlight headroom, but you won't need it because you're burning in the contrast)

Also, you're not limited to the V709 conversion (that curve is a bit weird IMO). You can try more contrasty curves in LutCalc, while keeping the gamut conversion. Or you can load up your favourite third party LUT, add the -2.66 exposure and re-export it.

PS: It looks like Exposure Offset Adjust (to re-calibrate the meter) is limited to 1 EV maximum so with that selected you'd be looking to hit +1.66 on the meter instead of +2.66. This would be your new "zero".

No light needed, just ISO. Of course above a certain level I think you lose PDAF?

I must doing something wrong because VLog is definitely more noisy, did you crop at 1:1 to compare ?

I use LutCalc and I use a Lut with -2.6 stop correction in Real Time Lut, of course my ISO value is higher in V-Log. To match ISO 100 in Natural I must use ISO 640/800 in V-log, but with this value there are more noise than Natural at ISO 100, and yet I use a curve which crush the shadows a lot. Easy to see the difference when cropping at 1:1.

Both my S5 and S1 with Natural look cleaner, and this is not due to noise reduction because the footage is full of details, zero smearing, the same level of details as V-Log with these cameras. 

I also get banding using V-Log on the S5II, and of course the lenses correction are not applied (unlike with the 709 profiles).
 

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

This is why you're not seeing it. A baked in LUT uses V-Log as its base picture style so it avoids the nasties that are in the regular profiles.

I never use regular profiles so I don't care. But for anyone who does want to use them then a solution is to use this method. If you're after the lower noise of regular profiles then just create a lut that pushes V-Log down by 2.66 stops. And I think you can also set metering compensation.

It's not so simple. If you create a LUT that push V-Log down by 2 stops, you need much more light compared to the 709 profiles. 

10 hours ago, Framed_By_Dan said:

Anyone who’s got their hands on an S5IIX able to see if there’s improvement on the skin smoothing/noise reduction artefacts that are present in the normal S5 II in the Rec709 based profiles? Also what about highlight roll off? I have the S1 that I personally feel is a bit too smooth and has hot highlights when shooting in a Rec 709 based profile - although the information does tend to come back fairly well in post. 

I’d love to move on from my GH5 to something a bit better in low light and the S5IIX could be a logical option but I’ve noticed some quirks with S series cameras that I don’t get with the GH line. 

I appreciate any real world user experience.

I'm interested as well, I own the S5II and I can't use the 709 profiles on this camera, I don't like the fine details when cropping in low light even at low ISO, the S1 has just way better detail rendering in 6K with these profiles, the S5II just looks oversharpened even with sharpness at -5.

I'm almost sure the S5IIX has the same issue with ALL-I, maybe not in Prores but I don't want to use SSD for run and gun.

Note than neither the S5 and the S1 have skin smoothing/chroma NR with the 709 profiles.

8 minutes ago, Stefano Capasso said:

i have realized that i need to add too  much money for buying one of these camera, after selling my xt3. So now i cannot do this upgrade, unless i go for panasonic S5 which seems nice camera now at very low price. AF of it it is not as good as the other camera, but if it is similar to xt3 than can be ok and the upgrade worthy considering that i should add little money.

What do you think?

For me, the S5 (and the S1) is still a great camera, the AF is good for photos. For video it's OK if you have enough DOF or if you use 4K 60fps. 
I have both the S5 and the S5II and I much prefer the video quality of the S5 with most profiles. The S5II has too much details processing for my taste, except in V-Log.

22 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Why the bumping sharpness up to the limits in this comparison? I find the material not easy to observe and evaluate. The light looks rather very undifferentiated to my eyes in order to be able to form an opinion about the image quality of these cameras. They look all the same to me.

Why ? To see that both the A7III and S5II can't be sharpened (in camera or in post) because of the huge amount of noise reduction and detals filtering. The bad light is used to see how the cameras perform in difficult situations and how they use their noise reduction algorithm.

Seriously I can see the difference even when viewing in 1080P, both the A7III and the S5II smooth details a lot compared to the S5, to the point that adding sharpness in post just look like upscaled from a lower resolution.
If you can't see the difference and use the Panasonic standard profiles, you can buy the camera with confidence, but personally I see a big difference with the previous Panasonic S cameras. It is the most aggressive NR, and over sharpening (especially in 6K) i've ever seen on any Panasonic camera to date.