Emanuel

If the camera shoots 4K then you'd be silly not to, and I was really looking for the smallest 1080p camera, not the smallest 4K camera, but I did include a couple for reference so that's my fault for not being clear.
I guess really this thread was a bit of a fantasy that I could trade spec for size, but we all know that's not how it works.
Even 10 years ago the tech was there to make a camera with a GoPro sized body and a P&S lens on the front.  I have one of my daughters old cameras - a Fujifilm J20 from 2009, which is an SD P&S but it's just under 20mm / 0.79 inches thick and has a 3x optical zoom lens.
This is the J20 pictured with a fake SJ4000 action camera, which is basically the size of a GoPro.


Combine these and they could have make a 1080p camera with 3x optical zoom in a body thinner than a GoPro and by making it slightly wider they could have made room for the battery and given a little grip to hold it with.
Given that it might have been a big seller back then, I was hoping they'd be a forgotten classic and around for a couple of hundred, but really it's just a fantasy.
The idea is the "smallest 720p or 1080p P&S camera" not the "highest resolution P&S camera".  
Sensible people don't want the best specifications available in the camera so large they can only just operate it, they want the nicest possible shooting experience with a camera that has the spec they need for their given situation.

I treat the LX as camera for HD delivery. From my experience, it's the best ratio between size, quality, ergonomy and used market prize for good quality HD. GM1 with a 14mm is thicker, more expensive and handheld video turns out jittery very easily due to its tiny body not being equipped with a stab.
I have tested the video side with my slightly taller GM5 and it's not fun to use for video. The stabilized 12 to 32 zoom makes it thicker than I like to for considering it over a GX85. The LX15 has lens stab, which works in 4K as well for holding steady, panning and tilting. HD on it is just too brittle for my taste so I see it as a 4K4HD cam.
My two cents. Nice talking to you again, kye.:) @kye

The CineD lab tests disagree with you about there being NR.  Below I have linked to where they talk about NR test results and they say "very little if any noise reduction" (linked to timestamp):
I believe your impressions about how the final images look, but Nr can happen anywhere in the pipeline, so maybe it was something done elsewhere in the process?  YouTube compression is absolutely brutal on grain, acting as a pretty serious form of NR that is applied to every upload, so maybe that's part of what you're seeing too?

Good discussion and I think this cuts to the heart of how different the thought process really is.
If I'm shooting in public with a single prime then this is how I am thinking about it:
- I have a fixed FOV, but I can move around and closer/further and when I do that I change all of the following at once:
   - the size of the subject in the frame
   - the perspective I have on the subject
   - the size and position of the subject compared to the items in the foreground and background
   - my distance to the subject
   - my influence on what I am shooting
- So I visualise the situation in 3D and estimate where I need to move to create the composition I want
- I move there and refine the camera position and take the shot
If I'm shooting in public with a zoom then this is how I am thinking about it:
- I have a flexible FOV and I can move closer/further so when I do that I can:
   - zoom, which changes the size of the subject and foreground and background in the frame without changing their relationships, or my distance, or without changing my influence on the subjects
   - move, which changes the perspective I have on the subject and therefore the relationships of the objects in the scene to each other, and it changes the subject distance and my influence on what I am shooting
- So I visualise the situation in 3D and estimate a line/cone of positions I can be in to create broadly the composition I want through varying combinations of focal length and my position
- I weigh up my priorities, trading subject distance, my influence on the subject/scene, and composition against each other to work out what I think is the best balance
- Depending on the layout, I also consider how fast I can get there compared to what is happening in the scene
- I move there and refine the camera position and zoom simultaneously, and take the shot
One is starting with a single FOV and working from there, the other is starting with an infinite number of FOVs.  The thinking is completely different.  When I'm using a prime the idea of zooming is completely alien and when I am using a zoom the idea of there being set focal lengths is completely alien.
It's like I have two programs in my head, one for primes and one for zooms, and I just run the appropriate one for what lens I am using at the time.
The idea of taking a zoom and limiting it to preset lengths might seem like a miracle compared to having a prime, but it's a disaster compared to having a zoom lens.  I spoke more about this in my dedicated thread about it, and once you start thinking beyond composition and into aesthetics and tone the idea that a 35mm vs 50mm FOV are 'similar' is about as ridiculous as a photo editor only allowing you to crop the image by 0% or 30% (this is the difference in FOV between a 50mm and a 35mm).
I'm sure you're aware of these fundamental differences from your own shooting and you'll have been doing all this consciously or unconsciously.
If you start from a technical perspective then a zoom is just like a set of primes, but from a creative perspective it's nothing like a set of primes whatsoever.

Cined just published their tests of the DJI OSMO Pocket 4P camera, with the new LOFIC sensor, and oh boy does it deliver!
Highlights from their testing (of the wide camera):
16 stops at SNR=2, and 17.2 stops at SNR=1, with no internal NR (better than the Alexa 35 and any other camera they've ever tested) 10+ stops of latitude (second only to the Alexa 35) and potentially limited by the 10-bit codec and maybe not the sensor 11ms rolling shutter (not bad, and better than DGO designs) Their studio lights weren't powerful enough to clip the sensor, it has that much DR! The telephoto camera from the DJI isn't a LOFIC sensor and despite testing very well it's not at the same level of performance.
The full test: https://www.cined.com/dji-osmo-pocket-4p-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-exposure-latitude/
In watching their podcast presentation they revealed a bunch of other interesting info:
This is the first of these (tiny consumer) devices that isn't trying to adapt itself to the scene, so it's a "real camera" in the sense that it's not heavily processing things They mentioned they had the iPhone 17 Pro in for testing and even when it was in full manual mode, just by moving the focus point it would change the test results etc As the main DJI camera is ~20mm FOV, they had to develop a new testing setup so the bright patches of the Xyla didn't reflect from the camera onto the dim patches etc LOFIC sensors are likely to be coming into smartphones soon, as this is where the money is in the R&D Sony are working on a smaller version of a LOFIC sensor which would be suitable for smartphones and also for the telephoto camera on the DJI Also, the OG BMPCC got a mention, as they were talking about how it would be great to have such a sensor in a "real" camera body and with interchangeable lenses etc, but MFT sensor size isn't that far away from this, so that could also happen too.  Panasonic went DGO and maybe would do this too..   I'm stoked for the GH8!!
Just incredible, and I second the idea of fitting one of these to a body like the OG BMPCC!
Images.
Waveform plot for the DJI OSMO Pocket 4P 20mm wide D-Log2 ISO1600

Imatest result for the 20mm wide camera, D-Log2 at ISO1600

Latitude tests of the wide camera:

The 4-stop over, which due to their lighting restrictions was still probably 1-2 stops from clipping:




 

I agree about it being too smooth, especially because the position of the camera isn't stabilised so there can be huge parallax movement which clashes with there being no movement in the direction of the camera at all.
I raised the topic because it would be interesting to see a combination of OIS + IBIS + Super EIS where the EIS smoothes the motion rather than locking the image completely.  It's much harder to get the locked stabilisation than just smoothing it and leaving some of the motion in the image, so it's definitely possible to tone it down a lot.
Perhaps this topic will be what people are arguing about when the GH10 and FX5 IV and R5 mk 5 are all being released on top of each other, so we've got to leave something on the table for then!

Sorry if I misread!
I have! And it's TOO smooth for my tastes. It's very impressive, but I still want some natural handheld movement. It helps with the immersion. It's why I have never used a gimbal for the ringside action. The biggest issue with action cameras, even the new ones, is the low light just isn't great in most of these venues that don't have professional lighting rigs set up. 

Actually, I was making exactly the opposite point from the one you made it sound as though I was making : D when I mentioned Lumix alongside the Oly case ; )
The other point is simply that one lens isn’t necessarily the same as another ; )) While much also depends on the way the operator handles the camera, a lens with optical stabilisation can make a night-and-day difference... speaking as someone who uses glass with and without it every day on the FX series :- )

For fast action sports where you're moving quickly it's just not sufficient from what I've seen. If you're largely standing still I imagine it's sufficient but when you're running around a wrestling ring, not so much. 
My use case though is admittedly unique. 

Never tried it but I suspect the FX30 stab would be good enough for my handheld needs which are basically ‘static’.
I move more and more however towards the combo of absolutely locked off or floating moving with nothing in between.
Lumix are great in this regard because if you have everything dialled up to the max, albeit at the expense of some cropping, these things stay incredibly still. It’s really only if there is any static foreground that you notice any movement so wider establishing shots, I always use a tripod or something.

@newfoundmass@MrSMWFX30's stabilization is not necessarily bad at all... it requires a proper operator! : P Maybe @kye is serious up there, maybe not ; ) I am :- )

The FX30s are still really great values. I realistically could get away with three of those and be set for the next half decade at least. The biggest issue I'd have is just the poor IBIS. IBIS is hugely important for my work, even more than auto focus and all the other comforts people wanted over the years. 
That's what has kept me in the Lumix camp. I plan to switch out one or both of my S5s for a S5II or S5II X here soon. Amazing IBIS and really good auto focus... no real reason to switch. 

That would not surprise me a bit and although I have not watched a single review other than the CVP one…and even that, not all the way through, I have noticed a while recent bunch of LUMIX converts posted they have one.
I imagine a bunch of them at least will shortly be posting a piece regarding why they flopped back to Sony, soon enough…
I’d have no problem flipping back to Sony myself, but it would be the FX3A and FX30’s plus A7RV, all used, because all of that kit is more than good enough for me.
The A7RV is still the best stills camera I have owned, though my S1Rii’s are better hybrid and as that is my bread & butter…
It’s an unlikely scenario though as my LUMIX gear just works and shiny new stuff for the sake of shiny new stuff, is not enough of a draw for me personally.
Still, no harm in looking and pondering from time to time!

I'm already shooting 2x anamorphic open-gate on my $30 Charmera keychain camera, so nothing new for me here.
Nice to see that Sony has finally caught up though!


 

This is a beast of a camera for sure, but man, almost $5K??? I mean, I get it, it's almost a cinema camera, but no internal ND, SDI etc....

I guess I'm just grateful you can pick up a used A7SIII for around 2K and get basically the same image at the end of the pipeline. Or even an old F5 at $1k for that matter... It's funny because I'm at the stage in my career where I can kind of choose to shoot with whatever cameras we want within reason. More often than not though, I end up going with older cameras because we get basically the same image at end of the pipeline, and they are like 10x cheaper. The budget saved can be invested into cooler on camera stuff. Spoiled for choice I guess

It's the best compact cine camera in the market, for NOW. But I'm not sure it can hold that position for long. Maybe they know this and keeping some features unavailable today to be unlocked at 2027. Firmware update these days are more a marketing policy (our product still competes) than an engineering challenge. I mean 4k240 is not some issue in the code you want to resolve. Its a switch. 

Let the chat commence…
 

the download is on their homepage -demos at Cine Gear Expo tomorrow

@Emanuelhaha well, you know, life gets in the way. Since posting that, I've stayed plenty busy growing my little Utah-based production company — we did documentary and commercial projects in 10 different countries last year — while juggling getting married, having a little baby son, with another on the way now, so becoming a YouTuber on the side never quite worked out. Thanks for checking it out five some odd years later though, lol.  I always intended to get back to it, maybe I will at some point. 

"UNFORGIVING HIMALAYAS" (looping version) - is this week's free-to-use-with-attribution music track now in  Ogg format.

You can listen to it here:
https://soundimage.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/Unforgiving-Himalayas_Looping.ogg

And download it here:
https://soundimage.org/world/

The standard, non-looping version is in Mp3 format, so if you're a video content creator, this is the one you'll want to use. Same for all the tracks on my site.  🙂

OTHER HELPFUL STUFF

My Ogg Game Music Mega Pack:
https://soundimage.org/ogg-game-music-mega-pack/

My Ogg Genre Music Packs:
https://soundimage.org/ogg-music-packs-2/

Custom Music
https://soundimage.org/custom-work/

Attribution Information:
https://soundimage.org/attribution-info/

Enjoy!  🙂

Now, about using it in summer... are we talking about a mild summer, or an actual summer that isn’t even properly hot, where the camera doesn’t need to suddenly remember it has thermal limits?
Here’s a useful 45-minute guide:
And last but not least, one of the best comparison tests I've found so far, if not the most interesting with a unique range of pros and cons is here, as well as probably the smartest use of a fine example for low light is there (serves as tutorial too).
To those who still think this unique accessory called the POV Head Tracker is merely pointless/meaningless, take a look at what Insta360’s CEO Insta360’s CEO said on the matter, when he said he hopes “that one day everyone will forget cameras even exist” : o
 
EDIT — Worth adding too: the new Pocket 4P/Pro filters are already starting to appear, alongside the brand-new D-Log 2 enabled by an equally new next-generation LOFIC image sensor.
And what about noise texture or quality of the grain in D-Log and D-Log 2 when testing the ISO range?
A 2nd test, colour included, plus a comparative analysis between the two and against S-Log3 no less*, from another reviewer here.
BTW...
Also not to forget the bitrate difference likewise highlighted by this old-school written comparison/review:
Pocket 4P/Pro goes up to 180 Mbps versus Luna Ultra’s 120 Mbps, exactly 50% higher.
The question is: what will be the real-world impact of that extra compression headroom in demanding scenes and heavier Log grading?
 
* A 5-stop difference in D-Log 2 and a full stop in D-Log... a 4-stop gap between the two! Well, who would have guessed? ; )
+ another test:
compared with the full-frame a7 V [LINK]
: X

Let's hope they updated it more than they updated the ZV-1 Mark II over the ZV-1 (or for that matter, the RX 100 V).  From what I remember, that "upgrade" was really just giving the new model a wider-angle zoom lens closer to the focal lengths on an iPhone and reducing some other specs (like getting read of the burst video modes).
My guess?  At most a small incremental update over existing RX10 bodies.  Any substantial upgrade would see Sony risking letting their point and shoot camera have superior specs, if even on paper, to their prosumer gear.  6K?  240fps 4K?  Higher dynamic range from a newer sensor? 
My guess without looking at rumor sites?  It'll have a somewhat updated 1" sensor and add USB-C to replace the micro usb port on the existing RX 100 IV (unless they already released an updated version with better USB?).  Maximum 4K recording will go from 30 to 60fps.  Full HD from 120 to 240fps.  Memory stick + SD card will be replaced with CF Express A + SD Card.  SD might get faster with the second row of pins that's on newer SD cards.  Still images will go from about 20 megapixels to 24-26 megapixels.  Video crop will go from 1.09x to 1x and open gate in either 4:3 or 3:2, whatever the sensor dimensions are, will be an option.

Had the OG…or was it the II back in the day and quite liked it as I’m quite partial to a fixed zoom camera.
Changed it for a camcorder with the same sensor in the end but that was about 117 cameras ago or something…

Well it’s been a while but, as they say in their trailer for the launch, the wait for a refreshed RX10 is almost over.
A lot has changed in the nine years since the last version so it should have a significant bump in features but, equally, it will likely get a significant bump in price (from an already pricey base point) that we’ve seen everywhere else in that intervening period.
It certainly has the potential to be more than enough camera for more than enough people otherwise they wouldn’t bother bringing a new version out but equally it could also just be a grab for them.
The internal ND of the Panasonic FZ2000/2500 gave it the edge for me over the RX10 so that’s one area where Sony might have come back at it but, then again, Panasonic show little sign of refreshing the FZ2000/2500 so there may be no need.
All in all it might be something interesting or a head scratcher.
 

Found this guy — no idea if he is one of us EOSHD’ers : P but if not, it would be nice to see him here ; )
https://www.youtube.com/@TheGrowingPro/videos
Seems fairly enthusiastic : ) Fascinating collection of stuff to dig into, and a bit of variety among all the new releases.
He’s a fan of the GH series too, with some lovely thoughts on a few cams, opinions, ideas and concepts many of us share here (brand-agnostic as well, which is always a plus in my book), and he’s also into medium format! Maybe not the kind of fancy channel people are used to seeing pop up there ; ) but that can actually be a good thing these days : D Pretty much gets my vote ;- )
 
@Parker I've just watched the full 6:13 video you shared with us. Thanks for that, I really enjoyed it. Pity you haven’t kept going with more stuff since then. What happened in the meantime? To borrow from your own thread title: why not? :- )