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Good discussion and I think this cuts to the heart of how different the thought process really is. If I'm shooting in public with a single prime then this is how I am thinking about it: - I have a fixed FOV, but I can move around and closer/further and when I do that I change all of the following at once: - the size of the subject in the frame - the perspective I have on the subject - the size and position of the subject compared to the items in the foreground and background - my distance to the subject - my influence on what I am shooting - So I visualise the situation in 3D and estimate where I need to move to create the composition I want - I move there and refine the camera position and take the shot If I'm shooting in public with a zoom then this is how I am thinking about it: - I have a flexible FOV and I can move closer/further so when I do that I can: - zoom, which changes the size of the subject and foreground and background in the frame without changing their relationships, or my distance, or without changing my influence on the subjects - move, which changes the perspective I have on the subject and therefore the relationships of the objects in the scene to each other, and it changes the subject distance and my influence on what I am shooting - So I visualise the situation in 3D and estimate a line/cone of positions I can be in to create broadly the composition I want through varying combinations of focal length and my position - I weigh up my priorities, trading subject distance, my influence on the subject/scene, and composition against each other to work out what I think is the best balance - Depending on the layout, I also consider how fast I can get there compared to what is happening in the scene - I move there and refine the camera position and zoom simultaneously, and take the shot One is starting with a single FOV and working from there, the other is starting with an infinite number of FOVs. The thinking is completely different. When I'm using a prime the idea of zooming is completely alien and when I am using a zoom the idea of there being set focal lengths is completely alien. It's like I have two programs in my head, one for primes and one for zooms, and I just run the appropriate one for what lens I am using at the time. The idea of taking a zoom and limiting it to preset lengths might seem like a miracle compared to having a prime, but it's a disaster compared to having a zoom lens. I spoke more about this in my dedicated thread about it, and once you start thinking beyond composition and into aesthetics and tone the idea that a 35mm vs 50mm FOV are 'similar' is about as ridiculous as a photo editor only allowing you to crop the image by 0% or 30% (this is the difference in FOV between a 50mm and a 35mm). I'm sure you're aware of these fundamental differences from your own shooting and you'll have been doing all this consciously or unconsciously. If you start from a technical perspective then a zoom is just like a set of primes, but from a creative perspective it's nothing like a set of primes whatsoever.

It depends on the range really. A 24-70mm is definitely 3-4 primes for me but something like the Canon 35-350mm is a different animal. Leica used to do these two lenses They are referred to as MATE (Medium Angle Tri-Elmar) and WATE (Wide Angle Tri-Elmar) and are “zoom” lenses with fixed focal length stops. The MATE is stepped at 28-35-50mm and the WATE at 16-18-21mm which on their intended use (Rangefinders) were used with a specific ad on viewfinder that was so clunky it is known as the Frankenfinder. They are not fast but are compact and have focal length stops that make sense so are very much a bag of primes (and very much more useful adapted on to an EVF body). Some Panasonic fixed lens cameras (LX10 and LX100 spring to mind) emulate this by allowing you to use the zoom ring to increment to fixed focal lengths and it is a good feature especially on those with return to position on power on functionality. I *think* some of the Sony RX100 do this as well.

Apparently Sony is working on a smaller LOFIC sensor now, so swapping to LOFIC may well mean sticking with Sony, especially if you already have a deal of some kind worked out.

I suggested in the other group that Panasonic should put LOFIC sensors in their ILCsand someone went on about mythical organic sensor, which quite frankly may remain just that. Panasonic should just put LOFIC sensors in all their new cameras, and ditch Sony if it doesn't improve sensor tech enough. I would love to see an Even Smaller GX camera with a 20-50MP 1inch LOFIC sensor. The LX10 is frankly too large for most pockets.

I recently watched a video where a street photographer tested his first 40mm lens, after only ever shooting with 35mm and 50mm lenses previously, and he couldn't really make heads-or-tails out of it in the week he had it. You could tell from the video that he found it different than a 35mm or 50mm, and that didn't surprise me, but what did catch my attention was that he didn't really even know how to explore and learn a new focal length. After reflecting on that video for some time I realised that: Lots of people must "learn" the focal lengths by sort-of memorising them based on external influences rather than just using them and learning first hand through experimentation With MFT and S16 cameras I'm used to using all sorts of "odd" focal lengths because I'm adapting all kinds of lenses from other systems with/without speedboosters and add-on anamorphic and spherical adapters I'm also used to getting a new focal length and using it blind and over the course of many outings of shooting with it gradually learning what impacts it has on what I shoot, how I shoot, how I walk around, how I begin to look at the world, how the world adapts to me once I adapt, how I feel when the world reacts to that, etc.. Using a zoom isn't like having a complete set of primes at all, it's almost like a different genre or different type of shooting entirely, but I'm quite familiar with that as well Now, when I think about using a particular focal length that I'm familiar with, all kinds of stuff comes to mind, and when I think about using one I am not familiar with, I don't know how to think about it at all.. the focal lengths are all so incredibly different. Having a camera with a 20mm and a 60mm seems like: - the people who don't know what they're doing won't notice (as they're confused about everything already) - the people that are used to shooting with primes will have an awkward and steep learning curve that they might not navigate that well - the people that know how to learn new focal lengths will probably adapt, but given the 35mm and 50mm FOVs are at the worst end of the main lens, they'll likely have a difficult experience choosing between a 2.5x crop of the main camera to get 50mm, or losing the DR and colour profile on the 60mm lens It might be that these are actually ideal for the type of shooting that people will use this camera for, and it's the normal FOVs that are ill-suited, but if you've "learned" the 24/28/35/50/85/100mm FOVs then it'll be a serious transition to navigate.

It lets them hit attractive spec points like 3x optical zoom and 12x zoom when using the digital shenanigans. Although the 3x optical zoom is actually 3x switch as the intermediate points are digital and if you are in D-Log2 then it’s a hard switch as there is no digital zoom. I think 45mm equivalent would’ve been better from a practical point of view but 2.25x optical zoom and 9x total zoom doesn’t look as good in the marketing. Even though 20-190mm equivalent is still not too shabby ! A good practical look at the challenges around shooting with it in this video.

This is the wide angle adapter. Wouldn’t take much of a leap for them to have a wide angle adapter in the unpopulated area where the tele lens sits behind. Or make one with removable magnetic tc/wa adapter set to choose which one you want (or not) in front of which lens. I expect Ulanzi will have such a set out within the month 😂

Yeah, as someone who shoots out and about (but doesn't vlog) 20mm and 60mm equivalents seem a little odd to me, although the 20mm makes sense for vlogging as it's just wide enough, and I guess having anything shorter than 60 would be a little too close to the 20 perhaps? Then again, I've worked out that I can do this odd thing called "cropping" which involves getting less than 4K in the final image, which is why no-one has ever thought of it before. It all still seems very cumbersome though. The log profile swapping etc smells like they'll release firmware updates to make it much easier. I often get the impression that the manufacturers get their product design feedback from people who film very deliberately and slowly, and only when it hits the market and people all point out the workflow gotchas that firmware updates eventually fix strange things like this.

There are already wide converters to put on the 20mm lens. How long until someone releases one for the 60mm tele. You could sell a set of 30 / 40 / 50mm attachments. Or a tele converter to turn the 20mm lens into 60mm and then you can keep D-Log2.

The 'Enhance' feature on CCTV is not longer reserved for detective series.

video surveillance is about to get REAL good!

The niggle with the P4P comes with the tele lens. The first being that 60mm equivalent might actually be a bit too tight for some purposes. It has an alluring shallow depth of field that vloggers will be drawn to using for filming themselves but it’s just that too tight to be held at a distance that will give a decent framing. The second of course is that it can’t use the new D-Log2 as it’s got a different sensor which means another step in post in swapping in correction LUTs on shots that use it. This is compounded by the utterly ridiculous limitation that you have to stop recording and manually change profiles. So if you are on the 20mm enjoying your bonkers 17 stops of dynamic range you can’t zoom through to get a tighter shot without stopping recording and selecting the lower profile. The answer is to always stick in the lower profile )or even a standard non-LOG one) but DJI really need to have a firmware update to allow a way of automatically transitioning if you are using DLog-2. It will still require the recording being stopped (automatically though if they implement it) and the extra step in post of making sure you have the correct LUT for each type of shot but it avoids the titting about with the small touch screen to change profiles, something which will be become very old very quickly. For me, I’d keep it in the standard Dlog profile for general use and treat the D-Log2 as more of a special case when I need more stops than a church organ. The lens though is not something that can be solved with a firmware update and for some people (not me as I am as averse to my own face as other onlookers are) it will be an issue when they start using it in earnest.

CineD tests are published, and the DJI kicks the Insta360s butt completely and utterly. https://www.cined.com/dji-osmo-pocket-4p-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-exposure-latitude/ https://www.cined.com/insta360-luna-ultra-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-exposure-latitude/

Cined just published their tests of the DJI OSMO Pocket 4P camera, with the new LOFIC sensor, and oh boy does it deliver! Highlights from their testing (of the wide camera): 16 stops at SNR=2, and 17.2 stops at SNR=1, with no internal NR (better than the Alexa 35 and any other camera they've ever tested) 10+ stops of latitude (second only to the Alexa 35) and potentially limited by the 10-bit codec and maybe not the sensor 11ms rolling shutter (not bad, and better than DGO designs) Their studio lights weren't powerful enough to clip the sensor, it has that much DR! The telephoto camera from the DJI isn't a LOFIC sensor and despite testing very well it's not at the same level of performance. The full test: https://www.cined.com/dji-osmo-pocket-4p-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-exposure-latitude/ In watching their podcast presentation they revealed a bunch of other interesting info: This is the first of these (tiny consumer) devices that isn't trying to adapt itself to the scene, so it's a "real camera" in the sense that it's not heavily processing things They mentioned they had the iPhone 17 Pro in for testing and even when it was in full manual mode, just by moving the focus point it would change the test results etc As the main DJI camera is ~20mm FOV, they had to develop a new testing setup so the bright patches of the Xyla didn't reflect from the camera onto the dim patches etc LOFIC sensors are likely to be coming into smartphones soon, as this is where the money is in the R&D Sony are working on a smaller version of a LOFIC sensor which would be suitable for smartphones and also for the telephoto camera on the DJI Also, the OG BMPCC got a mention, as they were talking about how it would be great to have such a sensor in a "real" camera body and with interchangeable lenses etc, but MFT sensor size isn't that far away from this, so that could also happen too. Panasonic went DGO and maybe would do this too.. I'm stoked for the GH8!! Just incredible, and I second the idea of fitting one of these to a body like the OG BMPCC! Images. Waveform plot for the DJI OSMO Pocket 4P 20mm wide D-Log2 ISO1600 Imatest result for the 20mm wide camera, D-Log2 at ISO1600 Latitude tests of the wide camera: The 4-stop over, which due to their lighting restrictions was still probably 1-2 stops from clipping:

The GM1 is long gone, but here's the tiny a110 lens: FWIW, my wife and I made a doc 10 years ago using the GX7 and the GM1 (with a different lens). It was fun. I did use the a110 primes I have for a short film. Finally, I also have the a110 Pentax film camera and have started shooting with it just for kicks.

Greetings Fellow Creators, Please be sure to check out my Ogg Game Music Mega Pack. It has over 1400 tracks in it (looping and non-looping) so you can download all of my video game music at once...a huge time-saver. Here's the link: https://soundimage.org/ogg-game-music-mega-pack/ You can also download my smaller genre packs here: https://soundimage.org/ogg-music-packs-2/ That said, this week's brand new free-to-use-with-attribution music tracks are on my Fantasy 13 page. They are: "THE WIZARD'S CONCOCTION" "VILLAGE IN ASHES" Here's a link to that page: https://soundimage.org/fantasy-13/ I can't believe July is almost over...summer is going by so fast! Well, see you in August then!

The old DPReviews are still the best outside the regular modern blog posts and Youtube vids of the cameras being revisited. Unfortunately that recent DPR re design wasn't kind - the site is almost unusable now.

I agree about it being too smooth, especially because the position of the camera isn't stabilised so there can be huge parallax movement which clashes with there being no movement in the direction of the camera at all. I raised the topic because it would be interesting to see a combination of OIS + IBIS + Super EIS where the EIS smoothes the motion rather than locking the image completely. It's much harder to get the locked stabilisation than just smoothing it and leaving some of the motion in the image, so it's definitely possible to tone it down a lot. Perhaps this topic will be what people are arguing about when the GH10 and FX5 IV and R5 mk 5 are all being released on top of each other, so we've got to leave something on the table for then!

No worries : ) On a slightly different note, this new generation of pocket cameras, such as the Insta360 Luna Ultra and DJI Pocket 4 Pro, may well point in another direction altogether... They offer impeccable stabilisation ; ) Granted, it is not exactly the handheld look you seem to favour, but that is precisely the kind of character Sony’s less effective IBIS can give you, especially when paired with a lens without optical stabilisation ; )) And very strong low-light performance too: LU1 | LU2 | LU3 | LU4 on a film set | LU5 + LU6 shot in exactly that kind of venue by someone who, like you, says he had never been particularly keen on using pocket or action cameras. Well, until this one came along... & 4P1 | 4P2 | 4P3 There is far less need to worry about professional lighting rigs today. To put it very simply, both have changed the whole game IMHO : )) especially at such an affordable price range nowadays : X What a time to be alive and kickin'! :- )

Sorry if I misread! I have! And it's TOO smooth for my tastes. It's very impressive, but I still want some natural handheld movement. It helps with the immersion. It's why I have never used a gimbal for the ringside action. The biggest issue with action cameras, even the new ones, is the low light just isn't great in most of these venues that don't have professional lighting rigs set up.

It might be an unpopular thing to say, but ChatGPT might be useful in at least pointing you towards models you didn't know about. I've used it from time to time to ask about various things (recently about tiny FHD P&S cameras, but about other types of products too) and it seems to have reached a level now where it doesn't hallucinate much, especially if you're just asking it for products that meet a set of criteria rather than asking it to list the full spec sheet. You still have to fact check anything important, and it's also quite biased (anything trained on the internet will be pretty skewed but camera content is probably more skewed than average!) so I'd suggest it's probably about as good as the average camera forum user, who is just as likely to have irrational brand opinions and loyalties and gaslight you about resolution and lens sharpness etc!

I've filmed a lot while walking, often on uneven ground, and I agree with your assessment. Even using Dual-IS (lens OIS and IBIS) on Panasonic cameras like GH5 / GX85 / GH7 you'd have to be much more ninja-like than I manage to be most of the time. I haven't tried the EIS setting on top of the Dual-IS, but by looking at the footage afterwards, I can tell that I'm not hitting the limits of the stabilisation by only a small amount - it tends to be stable and then jump pretty abruptly. I've filmed with setups that only had OIS or no stabilisation at all and so I appreciate the magic Panasonic is working, but there are limits to everything. I can't imagine what it would be like trying to follow people who are likely to be pretty unpredictable and jumping around etc trying to surprise their opponent. Have you ever used any of the newer breed of action cameras that have the ultra-hyper-giga-maxxed-stabilisation modes? I haven't, but they look basically like magic, stabilising people running and biking etc which is well beyond the OIS / IBIS / EIS territory on normal cameras. It would be fascinating if someone made a normal camera with a mode like that where it takes a large crop into the lens but delivers that kind of stabilisation. I can imagine using a wider prime, like a 16mm or 24mm with that mode to grab shots that are 2x cropped but smooth like butter.

You could add the Sony ZV-1 to the list (original version, which has lens OIS) - it's basically the same size and weight as the RX100 V but more video orientated. I own both the ZV-1 and an HX99 (which is tiny, shoots 4k up to 30p, with a pop-up EVF and a fantastic zoom range for a camera that small - helped at the long end by only having a 1/2.3″ sensor, of course). Unless you really need the zoom range or EVF, the ZV-1 shoots better video (with a mic jack too) and very nice stills. You can also get a JJC stick-on 52mm filter adaptor for it - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07GWQ6CXL (The Sony menu system will annoy you though if you're used to Panasonic cameras...)

The LX10/LX15 is a solid little camera. The big differentiator (aside from price) over the Sony 1” cameras is the f1.4 aperture at the wide end. That comes with a couple of caveats in that it doesn’t stay f1.4 very far into the range and shooting in 4K there is a bit of a crop. It takes my cinelike-D hack and I also put a magnetic filter thread on mine that enables you to put ND on it and/or in my case a Sony 2x TC that you can quickly pop on and off to extend the range. These are some grabs from mine. The top panel is lens at it’s widest, the middle is maximum zoom and bottom is maximum zoom with the TC on. If you want to have one with a natural long zoom range on it then their other 1” from the time the TZ100 has a 10x optical zoom. Can also take the cinelile-d hack.

I've been AI-ing, googling, and searching ebay, and it looks like there aren't any bargains to be had, although I can get a Sony WX30 for AUD200 / USD140 in great condition from Japan, and that's one of the smallest ones around (it's next to the GoPro on the left).. Video quality doesn't look too bad either, especially if the reference is 16mm or 35mm film.. The "logic" of the larger camera is pretty deafening though. Looking at the below... why use the WX30 when the slightly-larger RX100 or LX10 give you 4K and a drastically nicer image, and then why use those when the slightly-larger L10 has the GH7 sensor and V-Log and codecs instead of rec709, and now you're shooting with a brick! I realised I had a Lumix ZS20 sitting in a drawer and have now ordered a new battery charger and some new batteries for it, so that's a lot cheaper than a new camera and it's smaller than the LX10, especially when turned off. The struggle is real though.