Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Ikonoskop A-cam dll versus Blackmagic Cinema Camera

35 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

http://vimeo.com/61364609

Read more in the first part of this article

Back in November I tested the Ikonoskop A-cam dll with Rob of Slashcam.de and Ludwig Reuter of HD Video Shop here in Berlin.

We spent a few hours comparing it to the Blackmagic Cinema Camera - here's how it turned out.
 

Hooplapactusa likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

The Ikonoskop looked more cinematic to me, though the BMCC seemed to have more dynamic range.

There's a green tint on the Ikonoskop shadows. Is that because of the correction you made to get rid of the magenta tones?

Also, CCD is great, but I remember one thing that got me excited when the first few CMOS appeared on the market (on the Sony A1 and the HV10/20, which is the one I started using and fell in love with): the lack of vertical light smearing.
If the Ikonoskop has a CCD sensor does that represent the return of the vertical light smearing? Or have CCDs evolved and gotten rid of that artifact?

Thanks for the comparison!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

The Ikonoskop has a lovely 'painted image' look to it.  i'd love one of these!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Thanks for posting.  Alot of work goes into this, which I appreciate.  Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Thanks for posting.  Alot of work goes into this, which I appreciate.  Cheers.

 

Certainly more than the other blogs who leech from 100 RSS feeds and sell ads around other people's content :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

The Ikonoskop looked more cinematic to me, though the BMCC seemed to have more dynamic range.

There's a green tint on the Ikonoskop shadows. Is that because of the correction you made to get rid of the magenta tones?

Also, CCD is great, but I remember one thing that got me excited when the first few CMOS appeared on the market (on the Sony A1 and the HV10/20, which is the one I started using and fell in love with): the lack of vertical light smearing.
If the Ikonoskop has a CCD sensor does that represent the return of the vertical light smearing? Or have CCDs evolved and gotten rid of that artifact?

Thanks for the comparison!

 

Weird isn't it... The BMCC's sharpness and dynamic range seems to work against it in this comparison.

 

It just seems too smooth and broadcast like.

 

The Ikonoskop is a bit quirky and not just when it comes to the image, which is why I love it.

 

But it is VERY hard to put your finger on exactly WHY the image is so cinematic.

 

We used a very nice Zeiss 16mm lens on it which will contribute, but the colour and feel of the image is mainly down to the camera.

Ernesto Mántaras likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

There's a green tint on the Ikonoskop shadows. Is that because of the correction you made to get rid of the magenta tones?

 

Partly yes but look at the 2nd shot in (the musicians). That is more towards magenta.

 

Like I say there is a very fine line in the colour tint in Resolve with Ikonoskop footage compared to the Blackmagic raw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Ikonoskop:

- purple tint (as usual)

- low dymamic range => image exposed differently than BMCC => deep dark shadows, which may cause people think that camera has more cinematic-dramatic look... also uncomfortable burning highlights.

- slightly softer image, but for example cello strings looks better.

 

BMCC:

- greenish tint (unexpectedly)

- slightly sharper image, but sharper not always means better

- yes it has more aliasing and moire.

- rolling shutter bla bla bla

 

 

p.s. thanks for this long awaited comparison ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

The tint you can compensate for in post, but somehow the response of the sensor has an influence even on raw.

 

We went into the test knowing how to expose the Ikonoskop - it is true that you expose for the highlights, whilst the BMCC is the other way - it benefits from being exposed more to the right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

ccd lovely kodak ccd analogue beauty.
give me a danish women refined firm yet soft in a goodly way.

rough aussie with painted sharp visage like window sometimes likely to crack
fine for a one night stand
but give me ccd and danish for a week a month or year.
ikonoskope showing a proper filmic heritage here.


andrew sell your bmc and blag a deal from ikonoskop.
iscorama and ikonoskop filum is needed : )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Indeed, Andrew. I didn't like the sharpness of the BMCC in this comparison (but you can get rid of that later if you want to). Moiré doesn't punch you in the face, so I don't see it as an issue.

Now, the cinematic has something to do with how the Ikonoskop renders motion, I don't think it has anything to do with the contrast.
By the way, what about lifting its shadows? How does that look?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

difference in sharpness also can be caused by different lenses or different DOF, so its can't be too objective in this test.

again back to filmic look its also too complex and subjective. for example scene with bike as for me more cinematic in BMCC version, and scene with musicians is more filmic in ikonoskop version. 

if exclude artistic feel, composition, lighting and other outside factors, the filmic "look" its not a magic its just a complex of parameters of camera: dynamic range, shutter speed (not sure about shutter type, but would like to find the truth)+exposure+lens+aperture+grain+zero digital artifacts+you can do anything with colors if you shoot raw.

 

so slightly different shutter speeds - and one footage became less "filmic" than other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I like the Ikonoskop image better.  Goofy analogy, but the Ikonoskop reminds me of EXR and the BMCC reminds me of Vision film stock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Hmm, I thought the Ikonoskop looked rather video-ish. It mostly seemed like the colors were just plain difficult. The BMCC color looks gorgeous, and the dynamic range seemed to be greater on it too. I prefer the sharpness also of the BMCC. You can always get rid of that with a soft lens or a filter, but it has to be sharp in the first place. 2.5K on the BMCc seems to be a sweet-spot resolution for 1080p delivery. Here's to hoping they can really get off the ground and get the BMCC out to people. I'd love to see a BMCC with a S35mm sensor, because whatever they'er doing, they're mostly doing right, at least in terms of the image.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I was wondering when the rest of this would appear.  For me, the Blackmagic looks to have a superior image.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

If the Ikonoskop has a CCD sensor does that represent the return of the vertical light smearing? Or have CCDs evolved and gotten rid of that artifact?

 

 

     Yes It does have it, CCD's still the same: http://vimeo.com/40387639

 

At 0.53 you have a big smearing. The thing with this camera is that as far as I remember, It is not 1 sensor but 4, each next to the other forming 1 big sensor. Each sensor is called quadrant and have its own operational conditions, as temperature, artifacts, etc, which cause singular problems for this solution.  If I got something wrong please correct me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I didn't like the Ikonoskop, feels like a crappy Instagram filter on it.

 

 

To my eyes the BMCC looks fantastic, better flexibility in color grading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

i think the ikonoskop looks more cinematic to some, including me, because of the higher black levels. in projection film never had as low blacks as digital. this makes the image look less crisp and adds to the nice filmic softness.

the grade of the bmcc with the dark blacks seems to swallow information in the shadows, while the dark greys seem to make the iko image richer or more balanced in information.

so maybe it´s also a question of grading, of not bringing down the blacks as far as technically possible but to go for a slight grey tone that gives me the impression that i could look into the shadows if i wanted to.

 

great comparison! thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

there is a big difference between CCD  and CMOS sensors in image look ...

i always like CCD more ( more dense organic colors)....

sony f35 (panavision genesis ) image looks more like film than alexa ... 

but of course ALEXA beats F35 in dynamic range ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

not really a pure ikonoskop example as stanley kubricks diffusion filters as used on barry lyndon where used.

but a fine job by daft punk musician thomas bangalter

 

 

http://vimeo.com/28717821

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Wouldn't a quick fix for the tint be to film a ColorChecker, correct it and base your LUT on that?

That should remove any tints etc.

 

The LanParte kit is of surprisingly good quality. I've found that Ozirig in Australia is the best, cheapest and fastest even if you live in Europe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Noise under the bridge seems more evident in the Ikonoskop, probably due to the smaller sensor.

 

I prefer BMCC image, althought it is just a subtle feeling.. who knows.. blind tests like Zakuto's Revenge clearly showed that our opinions are driven also by knowing the names!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

     Yes It does have it, CCD's still the same: http://vimeo.com/40387639

 

At 0.53 you have a big smearing. The thing with this camera is that as far as I remember, It is not 1 sensor but 4, each next to the other forming 1 big sensor. Each sensor is called quadrant and have its own operational conditions, as temperature, artifacts, etc, which cause singular problems for this solution.  If I got something wrong please correct me.


Wow! That was very weird! Ineed, there was light smearing in only the upper left quarter of the frame. That's a nasty artifact.

I wonder how good the D16 will finally be among the 16mm sensor options, and how present is the smearing there (I guess just as bad but in the whole frame?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

     Yes It does have it, CCD's still the same: http://vimeo.com/40387639

 

At 0.53 you have a big smearing. The thing with this camera is that as far as I remember, It is not 1 sensor but 4, each next to the other forming 1 big sensor. Each sensor is called quadrant and have its own operational conditions, as temperature, artifacts, etc, which cause singular problems for this solution.  If I got something wrong please correct me.

 

 


Wow! That was very weird! Ineed, there was light smearing in only the upper left quarter of the frame. That's a nasty artifact.

I wonder how good the D16 will finally be among the 16mm sensor options, and how present is the smearing there (I guess just as bad but in the whole frame?)

 

I didn't find the "smearing" unpleasant.  You could easily call it blooming and say it was attractive.  

 

What i DID find unpleasant was the fact that you could see the joins between the sensor quadrants.   That totally negates the advantages of this cam really.

 

Edit:  Just watched again and realized that the bloom itself only appears in certain quadrants and you were probably talking about this.   If it was one big sensor the blooming might not be too bad.  but it is,  and even without the blooming you can see the joins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0