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Bought the Canon 1DC

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Posted

Without applying some kind of chroma filtering (some codecs do this, or have options to) you will retain banding in a 32bit workflow if it exists in the original footage.  32bit isn't going to create transitional data where there was none (not without intentionally applying another process expressly to do so, or by some byproduct of that process).  If the 8bit source bands a first step transcode to 32bit will band unless it's filtered or dithered.  Make sure you're also not introducing it with some discrepancy in your color management, just as a "crazy check".

Indeed.  I meant that since changing to using purely 32bit colour correction effects in premiere I have not been introducing any hugely noticeable banding when applying quite prominent grading.  I can certainly obtain cleaner gradients and smoother skintones/skys when I use just 32bit effects.  Re. capturing in 8bit colour, I am quite impressed with Sunset profile on my nex5n.  I hadn't used it before but since reading some articles on how it tries to, and quite successfully replicates 10bit colour in the way graduations are captured and processed.  EOSHD Andrew said something along the lines of that the profile is almost too good to have been included in the nex5n.   It would be interesting to work out exactly how Sony process the image in sunset profile to do what it does.  Must be some type of smoothing in the same way Neatvideo does it.

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Posted

Hi richg101,

 

I use 32 bit workflow so I was surprised with the 1DC's footage not holding better. 

 

Besides really heavy compositing, I don't care much about 32bit. 16bit should be enough for most grading. But that is another thread.

 

Try applying some noise (not grain) at a really low level (+/- 0,5% - but should be 100/256 = 0,39%), this will dither the image and reduce banding.

 

Try it before, and try it after grading effects.

 

Dithering will be even more important when you'ill reduce from 4k to 1080p

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Posted

Thanks Hmcindie and Chauffeurdevan. 

 

Everyone should read this link.  It is done professionally (not by me of course) and shows what occurs. 

http://www.hdslr.es/foro/index.php?topic=1711.0

 

If you scroll down on the website, there is some info in English (from the manual) and from Hurlbut's blog.  I remember reading Hurlbut's quote and thought Canon would have fixed any issues.  Well, they still persist. 

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Posted

I put in a call to Canon.  I'll see if I get a return call today.  I will bring up this 'banding' issue and see what their response will be.   

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Posted

are you grading with a 32bit workflow?  so all your effects applied to the image are 32bit?  Your banding should disappear all together with a 32bit workflow, even with 8bit original capture

 

This suggests that the banding does exist in the 8bit pregrade. In this case the 32-bit grade won't make a difference. 

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Posted

Have you tried using 5DtoRGB? Not sure if it has the settings for the 1DC compression type yet, but it does a great job with 5D/7D footage. It gets rid of a lot of compression artifacts and does a good job at transcoding to prores at a higher bit depth. It doesn't do any miracles, but the improvements to the footage are quite noticeable, especially if you're gonna grade.

Denoising software is usually also effective when trying to improve the bit depth, it's at least better than just directly transcoding to a higher bit depth codec.

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Posted

Hi Bruno,

 

Tried Denoiser, its effective depending upon the footage.  I've been testing Canon Log more.  Using more range seems to work better.  Still premature.  Been getting better results now.  It seems how the footage is shot is very important.   I took a shot from the inside of the house looking out into the brightness.  Got good results  Thanks for the response.

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Posted

It looks like the codec is allocating less bitrate to smooth gradated areas with little detail, like a painted wall for instance.

 

In the shadows it will allocate even less bitrate so compression and macro blocking will be worse.

 

As for 8bit, not much of a fix for that. There's only 255 luma levels so subtle gradations aren't possible. There will be big bands to get from one shade to another. It won't be smooth. May even be dithered, which has a rough texture and more noise in it.

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Posted

Andrew,

You're right.  It seems that way.  I have contacted Canon and forwarded info to a rep.  I'm waiting to see what they will respond.  Hopefully a firmware update - wishful thinking.   

 

Article for people interested on color bit depth.  The picture of the banding (8 bit gradient) is showing up at times (with Canon Log after grading).

http://provideocoalition.com/pvcexclusive/story/color_depth

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Posted

It is unlikely to be resolved.

 

My advice is to crush the blacks and avoid Canon LOG, shooting with a standard picture profile and exposing just spot on every shot.

 

This isn't the camera to do heavy grading on.

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Posted

I have to say that it's highly unfair to judge that footage based on the youtube version, can you find a way to share the original footage?

 

I watched the master projected in 70mm and it looked stunning, but if I was judging it from a youtube clip like the following one, I probably wouldn't have thought much of it, it doesn't look any better than DSLR footage with the crappy compression.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzqJMIN3Yco

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Posted

It is unlikely to be resolved.

 

My advice is to crush the blacks and avoid Canon LOG, shooting with a standard picture profile and exposing just spot on every shot.

 

This isn't the camera to do heavy grading on.

Thanks Andrew.    I was thinking of shooting with neutral and not use log.  However, the log does work in certain conditions.  I want to test it more on shooting outside in good light and see how it holds.  

The grade can be pushed a fair bit too. I wish Canon would give a little more fire power to this camera (10 bit color). 

 Images are very detailed and quite amazing - sometimes not as amazing when I mess up.    Cheers.

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Posted

Just looked at that file of my son.  In Canon Log there was banding on his neck before I color graded!  I looked at the footage again before any grading.  I remember someone posting that it was probably on the recorded log file.  They were right. 

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Posted

Thanks for posting Leang.   I still have to try some night time shooting with the 1DC.  I've been playing around with Log and Neutral under different lighting.  Also playing with codecs in post.  The 1DC is better than most realize but a draw back (in my opinion) is the 8 bit.  Andrew has posted a jpg of the 8 bit(1DC) vs 10 bit (Sony F3).  It is very true.  However under good lighting it is less of an issue (from my limited testing).  It is still a pain as it restrict.  Denoiser does help.   If Canon would give 10 bit, I think it would be a major benefit.   Cheers.

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Posted

Much like aliasing/moire on a 5DII or BMCC..... You just need to test the situations that create banding and try to avoid them or use a different setting to minimize it.

 

For 99% of your shots though, you should be fine shooting C-Log. It has a great look and is surprisingly gradable for 8bit (if it works like a C300).

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Posted

I've found that even when you have some banding in the source, one you denoise and add film grain in a 32-bit you're usually eliminating it.

 

If you keep sky tones closer together when recording, they won't be so banded in the source, then pull them back apart in a 32-bit space and it's making the new values - a 32-bit space does not look at 8-bit source and snap adjustments to 8-bit values - it's making new ones. In AE you are working with a floating point in RGB, it's agood fix.

 

But enough maths! Those who haven't, try it out.

 

Even those who have purchased this camera though, can surely agree that 8-bit for so much money is just taking the piss. There's absolutely no technical reason to limit it so much. To be honest, I can't even see the marketing reason...

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Posted

Are there any S35 or larger 10bit cameras for under $10k?

 

I do think we should be at the point where we see 10bit come down to cheaper cams.... But I would not expect Canon to be the 1st!

 

Maybe Panasonic will launch something at NAB

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Posted

It's true of course, there aren't, but I reckon we have to be in the last days of 8-bit in professional cams, surely? :S

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Posted

I hope so....

 

S35, 12+ stops and 10bit/4:2:2 internal and I will be very happy. I'm not putting my hand in my pocket until those 3 specs are met or bettered, under $10k.

 

I have a gut feeling that Panasonic will come out punching at NAB.... They are never scared to bring pro features to a prosumer price bracket.

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Posted

Seems you're describing the KineRaw cameras? They're under $10k.

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Posted

Unless something changed in the last month, you can't order one unless you are in China and there is zero worldwide customer support.

 

It's not a camera that is on the market, as far as i'm concerned. Also "only" 11.5 stop, more than workable, but i've always thought that 12+ is the magic number.

 

Looks interesting though, especially the mini.

 

BMCC and the speed booster might be an interesting combo too

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Posted

That's the biggest frustration: there's some good stuff "available", but none of it seems to be Available, if you catch my drift. 

 

It won't be too long before that changes, I'm sure...

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Posted

Yes, haha you are right. The availability of the new stuff is incredibly poor! I feel we're at the beginning of a mountain of progress though, and not at the $15,000 mark but at $3000-6k

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Posted

BTW the Sony F3 might dip below $8k on eBay before long. That does 10bit to external recorder if it has the required firmware upgrade.

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