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Calum MacPhail

NX1 Flat image, closer to C-Log

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Hi guys,

I've had my NX1 for a good while now and I wanted to check to see if anyone had any picture profile advice.

I've just finished shooting a 15 minute short with it over a year and have tested a lot of features during that time, including the bit rate hack.

However, im still finding in the base image that blacks are a bit too crushed for my liking and I wondered if anyone had any suggestions based on my current settings.

I'd like to get it a little flatter than possible as well so that I can use it more easily as a B cam for my C100, ive never expected it to be as flat as a log profile, but something a bit flatter than just now if possible would be great.

Current settings (based off  reading other users suggested settings):

Master Black level 7

Gamma control normal 

Luminance level 0-255

Smart Range + ON

Saturation -4

Sharpness -9

Contrast -4

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated and let me know if ive missed any key settings.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

If you are editing your NX1 files in Premiere then your blacks are looking crushed because it is expecting a luminance level of 16-235 and there is no way to inform Premiere that this is not the case. You can compensate for this by changing the levels at both ends or I have found that applying the brightness and contrast filter to all clips using these settings brings it back fairly close to the original exposure: brightness -3, contrast -15. (Video Effects, Color Correction, Brightness & Contrast).

I now use Davinci Resolve which allows you to stipulate the luminance levels of a clip which it adjusts accordingly. Why this is not a feature of Premiere still puzzles me.

Of course if you are not using Premiere then you may find a similar issue with your editor of choice.

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Exactly what Happy Daze said. The blacks ar not crushed, Premiere Pro is just viewing the footage that way.

To get rid of this, select the 16-235 luminance setting in camera, not 0-255.

If I remember correctly, the easiest way to get Premiere to 'see' the blacks (and also highlights, which are shown as blown-out, but actually aren't), would be to set output values in fast color corrector to 16 for blacks and 235 for highlights. You could also use RGB curve and lift the left end (blacks) and lower the right end of the curve (whites), while keeping the curve line straight.

As to getting flatter image - I see you're using normal gamma with -4 contrast. Gamma DR with the same settings would definitely be flatter. Black level adjustment though, also gives flatter image, but I don't use it.

When I plan to grade the footage, I use Gamma DR, -5 contrast and -2 saturation. With -10 contrast the image can get weird, and you have to perfectly nail WB, to not get weird colors.

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On 11/11/2017 at 3:05 PM, Daniel Galli said:

anyone got a c-log s-log o any lut like gammadr2slog from andrew for nx500? 

I think we're trying to apply the methodology of other brands, Panasonic, Sony, Canon to Samsung's color science and that's a wrong approach for this camera. 

I think a better approach would be adding a little flatness on top of getting your exposure as close to desired in-camera and then applying a less aggressive Rec709 LUT, and then adjusting from there in post. I think the key with Samsung HEVC footage is subtlety.  

When you get aggressive with the grade with this footage it does not hold up well. That being said, Samsung's in-camera color science already produces some damn good rich color and contrast. It's Samsung, not Sony. 

Let's not forget what flat profiles are for in the first place. If your image looks good, whether that's in-camera or in post, that is the final goal isn't it? Yes we all desire post control, but that's not always possible. 

I know we all want to avoid crushed blacks and clipped highlights. A lot of that can be helped with proper lighting techniques or avoiding scenes you know the camera doesn't preform well under.  I give everyone permission to feel okay with that, because it is okay. 

Another option is using diffusion and low contrast filters, which offloads that process away from the sensor itself. I'm currently exploring this option myself and hope to achieve some viable results that I can share here. 

As suggested, the difference between normal and gamaDR is notable. It's Samsung's basic version of Log. I'm sure had Samsung continued with cameras a firmware update would have given us a proper Log, maybe even onscreen LUTS, waveforms, false color, etc.  

Make sure you have Smart Range + on under the movie tab of the menu. There's two "triggers" for that feature. One for photos, one for video and they are separated. 

The hack mainly helps with reducing macroblocking, not DR. 

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12 hours ago, MountneerMan said:

What Rec709 LUT is everyone using?

I have two free ones that I don't mind but are certainly nothing to write home about.

I use a customized Rec709 developed specifically for the NX1 by Casey Wilson/DP, who uses the NX1 sometimes for big brand name commericals. ( Yes the NX1 is used for top-level work, sssshh ) 

I would share them here but he gave these to me personally so I don't feel comfortable distributing them without his permmision/blessing. 

I will say that it's a less aggressive LUT than your typical Rec709 for other brands because even in gammaDR mode the NX1/500 produces a3 contrasty image like you already explained. 

Casey taught me that the NX1/500 already produces a good image in-camera and the secret is to grade lightly, which is certainly true for grading any 8bit compressed file. However, The NX1/500 needs a little extra care than other brands.

Samsung took a heavy-handed Apple style, "we know whats best for you" approach, as this camera skates that consumer/prosumer line.  

You'll also see similar contrast ratios in their computer monitors and televisions. The thing is, your average person finds this type of image highly pleasing. 

Here's Casey's website:

http://caseywilsondp.com

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13 hours ago, Matthew Hartman said:

http://caseywilsondp.com/2016/03/24/samsung-nx1-free-lut-pack/

These custom NX LUTS are very nice. Also, there are sample image grabs on Casey's website. Enjoy! 

Hi Matthew, just wondering, do you have films made with these settings? I have them also but I normally use DR settings, not always happy with.

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8 hours ago, keessie65 said:

Hi Matthew, just wondering, do you have films made with these settings? I have them also but I normally use DR settings, not always happy with.

I'm finding with the NX1 that you have to use different settings for different scenes. When I used to set my settings to just one setup, it didn't work for everything.

Casey's settings work really well when you're shooting in a controlled studio with plenty of lighting. So he sets his master black level to 0 because in that environment you dont have to pull up your darks that much or at all. You control shadows with actual lighting.  

But in darker or more unpredictable lighting situations, (run and gun) I really have to crank up the master blacks levels to get any latitude in the shadows. I usually set that between +6-10. I never go pass +10 as a rule of thumb because when you adjust black levels down in Premiere/Lumentri you get a lot of banding and artifacts. It's pretty bad actually.

You have to work with this camera for a bit to discover it's weaknesses. Good image out of the box, but not very malleable. We're fortunate that Samsung's color science is generally good.

I've seen some amazing results from this camera and I've seen some absolutely horrible results too. I believe the key is sutble grading and good controlled lighting that doesn't push extreme contrast values in the scene.

Even low output practical lighting will blow out really quickly, which is a hallmark of limited DR. And if you underexpose to combat this, and try to lift the image in post you run the risk of bringing out the noise in the shadows. 

I'm sure Samsung would have addressed some of these issues with firmware updates that made better use of the amazing 6.5k, 14bit, 28.8MP sensor. But they left dishonorably and now we're stuck with what we have. 

I think the best we could hope for is a hacker comes along and lifts a lot of current restrictions on the clean out HDMI channel, so we can get more out of this sensor through an external recorder. 

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On 1/5/2018 at 3:45 AM, Matthew Hartman said:

I'm finding with the NX1 that you have to use different settings for different scenes. When I used to set my settings to just one setup, it didn't work for everything.

Casey's settings work really well when you're shooting in a controlled studio with plenty of lighting. So he sets his master black level to 0 because in that environment you dont have to pull up your darks that much or at all. You control shadows with actual lighting.  

But in darker or more unpredictable lighting situations, (run and gun) I really have to crank up the master blacks levels to get any latitude in the shadows. I usually set that between +6-10. I never go pass +10 as a rule of thumb because when you adjust black levels down in Premiere/Lumentri you get a lot of banding and artifacts. It's pretty bad actually.

You have to work with this camera for a bit to discover it's weaknesses. Good image out of the box, but not very malleable. We're fortunate that Samsung's color science is generally good.

I've seen some amazing results from this camera and I've seen some absolutely horrible results too. I believe the key is sutble grading and good controlled lighting that doesn't push extreme contrast values in the scene.

Even low output practical lighting will blow out really quickly, which is a hallmark of limited DR. And if you underexpose to combat this, and try to lift the image in post you run the risk of bringing out the noise in the shadows. 

I'm sure Samsung would have addressed some of these issues with firmware updates that made better use of the amazing 6.5k, 14bit, 28.8MP sensor. But they left dishonorably and now we're stuck with what we have. 

I think the best we could hope for is a hacker comes along and lifts a lot of current restrictions on the clean out HDMI channel, so we can get more out of this sensor through an external recorder. 

Casey has good lighting... do you know if he would be willing to share the rec709 file he created?

 

On 12/30/2017 at 2:22 PM, Matthew Hartman said:

I use a customized Rec709 developed specifically for the NX1 by Casey Wilson/DP, who uses the NX1 sometimes for big brand name commericals. ( Yes the NX1 is used for top-level work, sssshh ) 

I would share them here but he gave these to me personally so I don't feel comfortable distributing them without his permmision/blessing. 

I will say that it's a less aggressive LUT than your typical Rec709 for other brands because even in gammaDR mode the NX1/500 produces a3 contrasty image like you already explained. 

Casey taught me that the NX1/500 already produces a good image in-camera and the secret is to grade lightly, which is certainly true for grading any 8bit compressed file. However, The NX1/500 needs a little extra care than other brands.

Samsung took a heavy-handed Apple style, "we know whats best for you" approach, as this camera skates that consumer/prosumer line.  

You'll also see similar contrast ratios in their computer monitors and televisions. The thing is, your average person finds this type of image highly pleasing. 

Here's Casey's website:

http://caseywilsondp.com

Do you know if casey would be willing to share rec709 file with others?

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