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RED PRICING Important Announcement


FilmMan

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[indent][url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87757-Everything-changes-IMPORTANT-post"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87757-Everything-changes-IMPORTANT-post[/url][/indent][indent]Everything in the electronics world changes... usually for the better, cheaper and faster. EPIC just did.

We have learned how to make EPICs in quantity, lowered our assembly costs, found better suppliers and paid off our NRE.

That means we can continue to charge the same for an EPIC (and now make an obscene amount of profit) or lower the price.

Those of you that paid the initial price hopefully got your money's worth. It was the best price we could offer at the time. You rented your cameras. You used them to generate income by shooting projects.

The industry struggles how to handle it when technology gets better for cheaper. [b]We just tell the truth.[/b]

We are ready to lower prices on EPIC.

So if you bought an EPIC did you lose? Only if you did not put your EPIC to work. These are professional tools. They need to work. That is your responsibility.

Is your EPIC still relevant? Absolutely. Can it be upgraded to Dragon? Yes. Is it frustrating that you paid $X and it will soon be sold for some percentage less than X? Yes. But this is the nature of electronics. It has been. It is. And it always will be.

I paid over $2400 (in 1984 dollars) for an original 1984 Macintosh. That is over $4000 worth of today's money. It had no hard drive. It was 128K of RAM. 3.5" floppys. All I could do with a 1984 Macintosh was MacPaint and MacWrite.

Today... for $4000 you can buy an iMac with a ton of RAM and a bazillion times more in storage that is 10,000 times faster and more capable with a billion times more applications. If you thought the world was changing rapidly then... hold on to your hat. We now live in the world of exponential.

So. We could easily pretend and invent a new model to justify a lower price with higher performance. You are too smart for that. So are we. Instead... we will just lower the price of EPIC.

EPIC continues to be modular. Dragon will be an upgrade. Meizler is a module. All is good in the world if you accept the fact that everything gets better, cheaper, faster and for less money over time.

If you bought an EPIC in the past 30 days... we will offer a credit towards accessories. That amount will be posted along with the new EPIC pricing. Nov. 1st is when it happens.

Here is to transparency and honesty. Here is to the future. This is all an experiment. Let's see how it goes...

Jim[/indent]
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[indent][url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87757-Everything-changes-IMPORTANT-post"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87757-Everything-changes-IMPORTANT-post[/url][/indent][in

good I was wondering if they were going to back down because Sony did not make any official price announcement on theirs. So today is the day. looking forward to finding out

I find Jim Jannard's behavior of sudden co-incidences, very suspicion arousing. It must a celestial superball event, greater than any, Ever, that Both, a truckload of Red one cameras were ordered b

[indent][i]New prices will be [b]posted Oct. 31st.[/b]

I don't expect that we will sell many cameras from now until then. :-)

Jim [/i][/indent][indent][i][url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87757-Everything-changes-IMPORTANT-post/page2"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87757-Everything-changes-IMPORTANT-post/page2[/url][/i][/indent]
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One thing I noticed about RED. They respond to competition. Last year with the C300 arrival, Red responds with the Scarlet. This year, they are repricing due to the new Sony F, and Canon C500. They reacte and don't wait to see what happens. Excellent business practice.

I've been saying this for quite sometime. Any company that prices aggressively with top notch specs could take the lion share or establish a firm beach head. Once you have the masses using your product, residual income will come from accessories, upgrades, etc. Why lose a sale? Of course, pricing has to fit the economics. Look how fast the battle tested Scarlets sold out.

If the number was 100. Then $7100 x 100 = $710,000. On top of that people probably bought another $500K to $700K in accessories (high margins). Later, the users will buy additional batteries, storage, upgrade, etc., as the first round of buying leads to this. More importantly, these individuals are 80% secure clients. They are not with the competition. My 2 cents.

Cheers
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[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1351348760' post='20438']
One thing I noticed about RED. They respond to competition. Last year with the C300 arrival, Red responds with the Scarlet. This year, they are repricing due to the new Sony F, and Canon C500. They reacte and don't wait to see what happens. Excellent business practice.

I've been saying this for quite sometime. Any company that prices aggressively with top notch specs could take the lion share or establish a firm beach head. Once you have the masses using your product, residual income will come from accessories, upgrades, etc. Why lose a sale? Of course, pricing has to fit the economics. Look how fast the battle tested Scarlets sold out.

If the number was 100. Then $7100 x 100 = $710,000. On top of that people probably bought another $500K to $700K in accessories (high margins). Later, the users will buy additional batteries, storage, upgrade, etc., as the first round of buying leads to this. More importantly, these individuals are 80% secure clients. They are not with the competition. My 2 cents.

Cheers
[/quote]

I think RED are in their own world. Elitists.I remember the 'bringing a bazooka to a gunfight comment' comment. I thought it was ridiculous. If RED were really concerned about pricing and stuff, they would not wait for competition. They would create a 2k camera (if not a 2.5k one), in the league of the BMCC. The fact that none of the big guys care about pricing just outlines a cartel effect. Also, it would be great, if an underdog like BMCC kills a lot of the competition. I am guessing, the Hero guys are planning a BMCC version too,maybe without the RAW (probably with 10 bit 4-2-2) and 2.7-3k video. That would kill all the other Full HD over-priced and over accessory hungry cameras around.
Maybe people should start a worldwide fund, for creating the Ultimate Indie Film Camera, and let BMCC take the initiative, Let them dictate a collection amount, and lets collect twice that much. That should shut up Canon, Nikons, Sony and RED, for a nice long time.
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Used market for Redmx and Scarlets - there will be lots of deals in the next few months. Used Redmx packages have come down. With new competition, Red adusting prices, etc., it is common sense more deals will show up. Years back, when technology changed, I ended up not selling a mid expensive camera. I held it and it is worthless today. This is an unfortunate reality. How fast will cameras depreciate going forward? Exciting times lie next week with Sony's announcements and for Red's new pricing. More cameras coming too.
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There are entire used Redmx packages going for around $10K now. Look at what Red people are discussing about the upcoming re-pricing?

[url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87768-New-Epic-X-Price-Prediction"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87768-New-Epic-X-Price-Prediction[/url]
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75% of 'THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO' was shot with a RED ONE MX by Jeff Cronenweth for David Fincher.
The film looks stunning , they only got and Epic for the last part of the filming.
I think a RED ONE MX still has lot of life in it!
People used Mitchell BNC cameras for 50 years without havng to upgrade to a new model.
I would be quite happy to get a cheap used RED ONE MX
Im sure it is would be good to use for many years to come!
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Look at this Scarlet package from ebay: [url="http://www.ebay.de/itm/181005293790?nma=true&si=mBOqmxuit%2B%2FLYXDwFT%2F2k%2Bzzg1Q%3D&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2557&orig_cvip=true"]http://www.ebay.de/itm/181005293790?nma=true&si=mBOqmxuit%2B%2FLYXDwFT%2F2k%2Bzzg1Q%3D&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2557&orig_cvip=true[/url]

[b]About $8500 US.[/b]
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[quote name='andy lee' timestamp='1351437196' post='20494']
75% of 'THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO' was shot with a RED ONE MX by Jeff Cronenweth for David Fincher.
The film looks stunning , they only got and Epic for the last part of the filming.
I think a RED ONE MX still has lot of life in it!
People used Mitchell BNC cameras for 50 years without havng to upgrade to a new model.
I would be quite happy to get a cheap used RED ONE MX
Im sure it is would be good to use for many years to come!
[/quote]

Funny, I actually thought this was Fincher's worst looking movie. I thought the camera didn't hold it's own with all of the indoor lighting. But I also thought the were using Epic, they used Epic for the social network, why were they using Red ones for TGWTDT?
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no they didn't get an Epic until they where nearly finished shooting the film.. Dragon Tattoo.
I think the film is stunningly shot and the lighting is amazing

See this from American Cinematographer Magazine January 2012 issue

"Fincher had used digital capture on his previous three features, [i]Zodiac[/i] (shot by Harris Savides, ASC), [i]The Curious Case of Benjamin Button[/i] (shot by Claudio Miranda, ASC; [i]AC[/i] Jan. ’09) and [i]The Social Network[/i] (shot by Cronenweth; [i]AC[/i] Oct. ’10), and he decided to do the same on [i]Dragon Tattoo[/i], selecting Red Ones upgraded with the Mysterium-X sensor. Red’s new Epic was just becoming available, but using it as the main camera posed too many problems when the shoot began, according to Cronenweth.
“At first we had a hard time getting cards for the Epic,” he recalls. “In addition, at that time, all Epic footage had to be sent directly to Red for transcoding before it could be sent to editorial, and we just weren’t comfortable with that. But John Schwartzman [ASC] was working with the Epic on [i]The Amazing Spider-Man[/i] and helping to pave the way. By the time they wrapped, RedRocket could handle the Epic footage, and [i]Spider-Man[/i] had made a huge number of cards available, so we shot the last 20 percent of [i]Dragon Tattoo[/i] with the Epic. “We made sure not to switch cameras within a sequence,” he continues. “Although the Epic has a lot more resolution and slightly different color range than the One, the color is close enough that we were confident all our footage would match.”


Social Network was shot on Red One MX

See this from American Cinematographer Magazine October 2010

"Director David Fincher declares that his team employed “a righteous workflow” for [i]The Social Network[/i], a digitally captured feature that details the development of the Facebook website by Harvard University students in 2003. According to Fincher, his team, which included cinematographer Jeff Cronenweth, ASC, managed to simplify while significantly advancing the data-based workflow methods employed on Fincher’s [i]The Curious Case of Benjamin Button[/i] (shot on high-definition video and 35mm; [i]AC[/i] Jan. ’09) and [i]Zodiac[/i] (shot on HD video; [i]AC[/i] April ’07). Fincher had used Thomson’s Viper on [i]Zodiac[/i], and the Viper and Sony’s F23 on [i]Benjamin Button[/i], but when he started prepping [i]The Social Network[/i], he made an early
decision to adopt Red One cameras and data-management techniques for the project. Friend and fellow filmmaker Steven Soderbergh offered Fincher the use of Soderbergh’s own Red cameras, and around that time, Red was preparing to introduce its new Mysterium-X 4K sensor. Fincher persuaded Red to upgrade Soderbergh’s cameras with beta-version MX sensors, and he and Cronenweth shot [i]The Social Network[/i] with them, recording mainly to 16-gigabyte CF cards. “Viper technology was a few years old by the time we started this project,” explains Fincher. “I was comfortable with it and liked the bandwidth and the pictures I got, but … Steven [Soderbergh] let me use his Red Ones on some Nike commercials, and I just felt the Red was future-compatible. It’s light and small, and I could walk away from the set at the end of the day with a wallet full of CF cards, take them to the editorial department, download them, and go back and use them again. I call it a righteous workflow.“Red’s new chip was in the beta stage when I started prepping [i]Social Network[/i], and I felt that if the company could guarantee the chip’s stability throughout our shoot, it was a risk worth taking,” continues the director. “[Red CEO] Jim Jannard did that, so the decision was easy. When I brought Jeff Cronenweth in, I said, ‘If you don’t like the tests, we can discuss making a change, but otherwise, this is how I want to go.’ We went into a digital-intermediate suite, and the 4K images we saw made Jeff happy.”Cronenweth had previously shot music videos and the feature [i]Fight Club[/i] ([i]AC[/i] Nov. ’99) for Fincher, and had also shot second unit for the director’s films [i]Seven[/i] ([i]AC[/i] Oct. ’95) and [i]The Game[/i] ([i]AC[/i] Sept. ’97). When Fincher offered to bring him aboard [i]Social Network[/i], Cronenweth had not used the Red One with the new chip, though he had digitally captured commercials with the Red, Thomson’s Viper and Sony’s F35. Cronenweth says he quickly became comfortable with the MX chip after testing, and he believes the Red suited the “reality-based” aesthetic of the project at hand. He also felt the Red would help the production work around the fact that it had no access to the Harvard campus, where much of the story takes place. “We had to tread lightly when shooting near Harvard, while at the same time maintain high standards,” says Cronenweth. “I was confident that the Red would allow us to work light, move fast, handle low light and still get rich visuals. We could still monitor and regulate exposures, if you will, but our footprint was very small — we didn’t even have a DIT [digital-imaging technician]. We had a video-playback tech to record data, and one camera assistant managing data and sending everything to editorial. The video-playback tech received the normal 720 out signal for video assist via normal cabling.” The production carried two of Soderbergh’s Red Ones (Build 21) upgraded with MX chips and outfitted with Arri Master Prime lenses. Keslow Camera supplied the team with the Master Primes and a third Red One. (A second unit, which focused on crew-race footage, was outfitted with two lightweight Kevlar Red bodies that Red made specifically for the filmmakers.) Soderbergh’s cameras were run most of the time, with Peter Rosenfeld operating the A camera and Cronenweth on the B. The production utilized the Redcode 42 compression scheme, but Red also upgraded software so the production could go as high as 36 fps and still stay within Redcode 42. The movie was shot 2:1 (4096 x 2048) for a final aspect ratio of 2.40:1. Most of the time, the 4K images were recorded directly to CF cards. For long dialogue scenes or data-eating speed-change sequences, however, the team also used Red-Ram and Red-Raid drives. The filmmakers visualized what they shot “rather simply,” according to Fincher, on a pair of Panasonic BT-LH 1760 HD focus monitors. Rather than calibrating the monitors with a variety of look-up tables, they relied on the basic Redcolor default LUT, saving their fine-tuning for the digital grade. Cards were sent to editorial each day and offloaded, with an editorial assistant backing up each card to two separate hard drives and LTO tape before returning the cards to set. No physical media were used for dailies; instead, the production relied on the Pix System online media platform, staying in the data realm throughout.
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Anyone bidding on an Epic?
[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPIC-X-RED-CAMERA-459-fully-updated-in-perfect-condition-/261120135918?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccbf912ee"]http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPIC-X-RED-CAMERA-459-fully-updated-in-perfect-condition-/261120135918?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccbf912ee[/url]
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[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1351562039' post='20561']
Anyone bidding on an Epic?
[url="http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPIC-X-RED-CAMERA-459-fully-updated-in-perfect-condition-/261120135918?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccbf912ee"]http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPIC-X-RED-CAMERA-459-fully-updated-in-perfect-condition-/261120135918?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccbf912ee[/url]
[/quote]

Wow... Wonder what that one will go for. I should max bid at $20,000 just to see if somebody is rich enough to snipe my ass at the last minute, lol... My luck though, it'd be the day I was so lucky, i got an Epic X for $20,000!!!.... Annnnnnd didn't have it.

Fail.
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I'd hold on to the bidding.
According to website in Europe, price of the F55 will be roughly $24,500.
[url="http://www.creativeventures.be/sony-pmw-f55.html"]http://www.creativeventures.be/sony-pmw-f55.html[/url]

A Red Epic M brains sells for $39,500
[url="http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-m-brain-only"]http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-m-brain-only[/url]

With Sony, battery/charger, and other goodies will be included. Also Sony has global shutter on the F55. So what should the Red Epic M sell for. Remember the Scarlet is a Red Epic except lacking a few goodies and the so called "chip not meeting Epic standards" so in reality, the Scarlet pricing could be a possible? Wishful thinking? But Red is in the market to make money. So will the price drop to $18,500??? Or $17999. Or cheaper? Such as $15000 (keep it lower than the F5 too?). All the above is speculation. Fun times.
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[size=5][b]The MMA match is about to begin???[/b][/size]

[url="http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87903-Contemplation"]http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87903-Contemplation[/url]

Just contemplating...

If you are looking at value in a camera... look to yourself.

Everything will get better and cheaper as time rolls on. It is up to you to make the most of this... especially when it comes to cameras.

Cameras are investments... an investment in you. Cameras alone do not hold any special value unless you plan on holding them new in a box for 50 years.

Whatever you buy... cameras, computers or almost anything electronic will dramatically improve and get cheaper over time. That is a given. Mark this down as an irrevocable law in heaven.

RED is in the same boat as everyone else. We can make it better and make it for less given some time. How can we assure that our customers don't get screwed? Most of this is up to you. You need to use your pro equipment and expect that it will be obsolete the minute you buy it. Make it work. Or lose money. It can make you a living or sit on your shelf and devalue. Your call.

You need to put your investment in any camera system to work. Or you will lose money. That is a fact. Read this twice. Or more...

Obsolescence Obsolete. We do give you a chance. We upgrade. We allow trade-ins. We do everything possible to help you out. But in the end... you will lose if you don't put your equipment to work. These are the cold, hard facts.

Expect more capability for less money as time goes on. Think carefully before you buy anything. As soon as you receive it... use it.

Get ready for the future. It is full of more for less.

We take pride in telling you the truth. It is your job to accept it. Or not.

Jim
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