mercer

Yes, but you aren’t going to find the convenience that a 1” sensor compact or bridge camera offers. If an equivalent lens from the RX10ii was available in FF, it would be a $2000-$3000 lens and the size of an artillery canon. In my opinion Sony peaked with the RX10 line with the Mark II. After that model they dumped the built in NDs and the constant aperture for the sake of reach. In my opinion there is a gap in the market now. The XC10, RX10ii, FZ2500 are point and shoot cinema cameras and the 1” sensors only help with that convenience. This is one of the reasons I’m thinking about getting a camcorder. If you look at the features and quality from the Z90 or DVX200 or XF405, they rival what you would get with a cinema camera that’s twice the price. At $3-4 thousand dollars for a new FF camera, I’d rather spend the extra money for a cinema camera for the extra features. But for the money, bridge cameras and camcorders are giving you those features and adding a small form factor and convenience. Full Frame is awesome, I love shooting full frame, but everything is bigger and heavier. Focus is more difficult, IBIS doesn’t work as well, lenses are bigger and heavier and more expensive (for the most part) But from a business stance, FF is great, the manufacturers aren’t spending that much more in R&D and production but they can charge nearly twice as much. If you can make a good film with a FF, there’s no reason why you can’t make a good film with a 1” sensor camera. You just have to think differently. Hell, The Walking Dead is shot on S16 and I never once thought while I watched that show that I wished there was just more shallow depth of field.

I thought Canon has stated that it is not the same sensor that’s in the 5D4 and is a new sensor?

I like it. Good job! Actually, with your fondness for the forgotten cameras of yesterday, I think you may really like the E-M5 Mark II. It has the best IBIS I’ve ever used and a nice organic look and color. How did you like the files? If I remember correctly, this footage was recorded externally to a BMVA, so the ProRes files may be a little juicier than the in camera All-I files.

That Ireland video is gorgeous. I prefer a little blue in my greens... I think that has a more Alexa look (of course I’m basing that from graded Alexa material) but whatever, that’s an easy fix with Hue/Saturation curves and the Ireland video still looks great!!! Damn, every time I’ve convinced myself against the GH5, as a second camera, another GHa video gets posted and mucks up my plans.

Don’t you just have to unscrew the back guard/fin and remove it?

Well, I only briefly owned the 17-55mm a few years ago so I don’t remember to be honest. The 35mm f/2 has them but I would call them soft stops. Basically, you can feel a stop on either end but the rubber grip continues to spin so it also can feel like there isn’t a stop if you’re not paying attention. But with a lot of follow focus’, you can set hard stops. With my current setup, I’m not using a follow focus so I don’t have a lot of information about which products have that feature. And I actually like a short focus throw. I focus by hand and like the tactile feel. With a long focus throw, it makes for some sloppy rack focuses.

I’d agree that the Sigma 17-50m is a decent choice for the P4K. With a speedbooster, you have a general purpose lens that mimicks a 24-70mm but with an f/2. Add the original 30mm 1.4 and you have a good two lens set up. A better option may be the Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 and the 35mm f/2. Both have really good IS and with the speedbooster, you’ll have an f/2 and f/1.4 respectively.

Think of it like a lever. With a follow focus, you will gain rotation on the follow focus wheel, so it will be a little easier to get critical focus. I actually think the Sigma 17-50mm lens is underrated. The OIS isn’t horrible, definitely helpful. It’s a fairly sharp lens and it has hard stops, so it’s definitely a good contender for a follow focus.

Also, I’m sure many of us would like to know when Nikon is updating the D5600? I’d also like to know if they have any plans for an F Mount mirrorless. The D5600 is already so small, I think a consumer tiered D5700 as a mirrorless with an F Mount could be a really smart move for Nikon. If they focus on the video features, with that extra room in the flange distance of an F Mount, they could implement built in ND filters.

Please ask Panny if/when they will update the FZ2000/2500. The FZ1000 was realeased in ‘14, the FZ2000/2500 was released in ‘16, should we expect an FZ3000/3500 this year?

I think you’re confusing people for artistic types. Artistic types use the camera they have and make it work. Btw, I am neither. ?

No problem, I don’t mind off topic discussions. The information that can be gathered from impromptu questions are often invaluable. Thanks for this! That app looks great. You are probably the most helpful member on this site!!!

I wonder if the DVX will get an update at NAB. It’s been a few years since Panasonic has updates any of their camcorder line, so there could be some great updates coming soon. I’m half tempted to pick up another FZ2500 soon and wait to see what happens at NAB. With JVC recently licensing ProRes for an upcoming camera, it’s quite possible the LS300 could get another FW update with ProRes, or a Mark II model...

Oh yeah. That’s what I meant, I just worded it weirdly. That’s not too big, I guess. Thanks.

Thanks, that was helpful. If I do go this route, I am leaning toward the Sony, out of those two, due to the 10bit 1080p. How is the 10bit? @BTM_Pix thanks a lot for that test!!! I’m pleased to see that not much is lost on the wide end... even though anything over 20mm (FF FOV equivalent) is the widest I’d ever use anyway. I must admit that the LS300 is growing on me. I’ve pretty much narrowed my 1” camcorder options down to a few. Now I need to check out the LS300 more thoroughly. I checked the specs a while ago and if I remember correctly it was on the bigger side? I believe it’s about 13-14” long? It isn’t a dealbreaker but the more compact the better.

Do you shoot narratives with that combo? I am the one weirdo not worried about the FF Panasonic and hoping they announce an FZ5000 or FZ5. It’s been 2 years since the FZ2500 was announced and 2 years before that the FZ1000 came out. As the FZ2500 gave us a lot of the video functions from the GH4, I’m hoping an update will give us those GH5 features. I’ll happily stop looking and buy that camera at release. BTW, last year I was messing around with an RX10ii. I wanted to try using sLog2 but due to banding, it was frowned upon, so I gave monochrome color a go and the banding disappeared... it may work for vLog in the DVX as well if you like B&W.

Yeah as @Yurolov said, with the optional XLR inputs, the XC15 is definitely an option but for only $500 more, I think I’d rather have the DPAF, 4K 60p, form factor/top handle of the XF400. Like all cameras, none of the camcorders are perfect either. The Sony Z90 has some impressive specs and is very compact with 10bit 1080p internal with all of the Cine profiles and PDAF. The Panasonic UX-90 has a nice thick image with CineLikeD and I am fairly familiar with the FZ2500, so I know what to expect from the camera. I’m still a month or two away from a purchase, so I am going to hit the keyboard and see what type of scripts I can write that would benefit from a camcorder as I continue to research them. I may even rent the Z90 and the XF400 to see if I like them.

Cool feature. How much of the 12mm or 14mm micro4/3 zooms are vignetted in S35mm mode? That’s pretty cool!

How do you like the combo? The DVX looks amazing, with the bigger sensor, but may be a touch more than I want to spend... do you shoot a lot of narratives with the combo and if so, what are your thoughts? I’m pretty familiar with the FZ2500. After buying and selling two of them, I always wish I had kept it... just something unique about that camera... it’s probably the 1080p quality and the push button slow motion. Yup that’s it. Also it seems that camcorders get the video features we all want in stills cameras before the stills cameras get them... case in point the DVX200 and the Canon XF400 with its h.264 4K up to 60p. And I have little doubt if some of the master directors were starting out today, they very well may shoot with a camcorder. Re: the LS300... I wonder if any of those Olympus 4/3 f/2 zooms and adapter would work with it?

@BTM_Pix thanks for the reply, and the suggestions. And yes, that is exactly what I am looking for with this camera. I am definitely considering the LS300, for all of the reasons you’ve suggested and more. And I may end up getting the FZ2500 regardless of this camcorder fancy. I have a very specific project I have in mind for that camera and there are a few features that really fit the bill. If I decide I like it, I may go ahead and get a UX-90 as well. From the few samples I’ve seen, that camera seems to be the most cinematic with the CineLike profiles. The Sony Z90 also looks like an excellent choice with some decent samples floating around. I think the best part about the Z90 is the internal 10bit 4:22 1080p... it really is a camcorder version of the FS5, for 2 grand cheaper, which I find very appealing as I am a big fan of that camera’s 1080p output. Not to bore you, but I am really surprised by these camcorders. You really have to use your imagination when you look at samples online because not many folks are using them for cinematic filmmaking... but after scouring the web, I have found positive traits with the Panasonic, Canon and Sony’s offerings. The LS300 samples are a lot more obvious in their quality... which is why it is still on the list as well... just on the higher end that I was looking to spend. Anyway, thanks again.

Thanks, Kye!!! That was a very interesting read... I don’t think I’ve read one of their reports before but I’ll definitely look into them more in the future!

Definitely. Great points! With the price of the XC10 right now, I very well may end up buying that camera again. I don’t think I can stress home much I enjoyed using that camera in 1080p. I just loved the image, the form factor and the semi-auto functioning. It just got out of the way. The only reason I sold it was because it was my first big purchase. I paid $2000 for it and within two months I saw the value of it drop on the used market... I got scared so I dumped it while it still had some meat on its bones. However, one of the most appealing features of this S16 camcorder idea for me are the XLR inputs, and built in top handle... so I would probably choose the XF400 with its DPAF, 4K 60p, XLRs and top handle over the XC10. I can always shoot 1080p with the XF400 or downscale the 4K. If it had Canon Log, I’d stop looking and start saving right now but of course Canon has to be Canon about something. Of course, I believe the XF405 has 10bit 4:22 output through SDI... so add on a BMVA and the camera becomes a little bit more for certain projects that need that little extra.

Haha, in a way yeah. In my pursuit of making films as a hobby, I’ve gained a second hobby of testing cameras and lenses. They aren’t always mutually exclusive but one is a bigger waste of time than the other. Lol. I’ve mentioned many times in the past how intrigued I am by the LS300. We speak of hybrids all the time on this site, but the LS300 could be the only camcorder/cinema camera hybrid on the market. I don’t know if it’s the right camera for this specific goal, but it’s definitely an option. But I do love the idea of a cinecorder... which is exactly how I will treat any possible camcorder purchase. In the past day I have narrowed down my options to two, then up to three and back to two. Tomorrow I’ll change my mind again. Thank god I don’t have the money right now to buy one, because I may have ended up with three. Lol. You seem fairly knowledgeable on the camcorder offerings so what are your thoughts of the Panasonic UX-90? It’s on the cheaper end but seems to have most of the features of the 180? If I go this whole camcorder route, I could pick up the FZ2500 on the cheap... give it a real go this time to see how I get along with it and then pick up the UX-90 as the A-Cam to the FZ2500 B-Cam. My only problem with the UX-90 is that it’s a little on the bigger side compared to the Z-90 and XF-400 which are very compact.

IronFilm, I appreciate your input here and definitely have learned a ton about audio from you, but we are not having the same discussion. In fact, we are on two totally different planets. I’ve worked (acted, boom operated, ran lights, built sets, etc...) on no budget, DIY films and the notion that they will be less than any other, low budget/no budget production just isn’t factual. It’s different and you make sacrifices that need to be made but I am not talking about creating technical trash, I’m talking about making some secessions and using technology to make the process easier. But for the sake of argument, have you really evaluated the state of micro budget and low budget filmmaking lately? I’m talking anywhere from a $1000-$50,000 budget. There is almost no money to be made and very little distribution options. Short films are great, I’m working on one but the market is so saturated that it’s easy to get lost in the mix. Now I could save up for a year or two and have enough money to rent a Wet Alexa or a Red and shoot the slickest 5 minute short. Lots of people do it, and lots of people end up spending 20,000 bucks to have their expensive short die a slow death on YouTube. So what good is that? With the same money, I could make 2-3 run and gun features in 2 years, enter them in festivals, seek out distributors, use some of that money to get an aggregator, or release them on Amazon as a last chance option. It’s an odds game. Did you know the last successful, no budget film was a found footage film called The Break In, shot on an iPhone, released on Amazon and the filmmaker has made millions of dollars with it. I’m not delusional enough to think I’ll hit that jackpot... that’s why I’m a hobbyist with a day job. But as I get older, and going forward with this whacky hobby, I know which path I’d rather follow. Just my opinion. Great points and thanks for replying. I like EOSHD, there are some great and helpful people around here, some of which I would call friends, but it is a bubble... Once DSLRs came around, I never even considered a camcorder... EWW... been there, done that. But I also haven’t really looked at what’s available either in the sub-$3000 camcorder market. And after checking out the specs yesterday while drinking my coffee... I thought to myself... hmm. After looking at some videos... I thought... wow that could be usable. I could be the only human that sees the possibilities here, and I’d never recommend it to anyone if they asked me what camera should I get, but for the reasons I’ve previously stated... I find the possibilities exciting.

Thanks Kye, this is a very logical approach with great points. But if you’ve read my last couple comments you may understand my point about using a camcorder for CERTAIN projects. As a hobbyist/diy/no budget/one man band filmmaker that has A LOT of movie ideas but only limited time and budget per project, I am looking for ways to be more productive with more creative freedom. For me, a camcorder could be the perfect tool for certain projects. For those projects, it wouldn’t be a B-Cam, it would be THEE-Cam. As far as shallow depth of field goes, yeah when the XC10 was my only camera, I definitely missed lenses and shallow DOF, but anyone who has ever shot with a camcorder knows ways around that through composition and focal length... and it’s not like a 1” sensor is an iPhone.