Tone1k

34 minutes ago, jonpais said:

This is fairly typical of what I've seen from 99.9% of original Pocket footage online (actually a little better than most) - soft and grainy; gobs of lens flare; ugly clipping of highlights; crushed shadow details; dreadful skin tones; strong cyan cast with ugly sepia tones; little to no cohesiveness; lugubrious soundtrack - much of it resembling lo-fi home movie footage shot on VHS, or worse - yet it gets oohs and aahs from viewers. It's got nothing at all to do with the cinematic look as I understand it. Yet the uploader has the pretentiousness to call it a 'film'. 

What do you think? Am I way off base? Is this the 'cinematic' look you're after? 

 

Considering the subject matter and people in this 'film', I'm guessing whoever's 'film' this is is a 13-18year old and in that regard I don't mind it and willing to cut the person some slack. 

You could say it's lowfi, and I don't love the heavy cyan cast but I remember sitting in cinemas and watching 35mm projections of blockbusters and art house films alike and loved the fact that things were never tack sharp. I loved the softness, and the grain.... These days, more and more people  expect images to be clinical, super sharp and noiseless all the time. 

Just now, jonpais said:

Would’ve been nice if they’d gone with Panasonic batteries too. (not complaining, Damphousse!)

Thats what I thought when the camera was first announced too.

29 minutes ago, Nathan Gabriel said:

Really? What about the factor of convince for consumers who are more likely to have HDMI cables than SDI? Think of anyone who is coming from Panasonic or Sony hybrids, they'll all be used to HDMI.

A short SDI cable is $20.

Panasonic and Sony users will all be used to using autofocus too but this camera doesn't have it (I'm not complaining Damphousse!) . Should BM have included AF because thats what other users are use to?

They'll all be use to a flip screen but......yeah you know the deal (Again, I'm not complaining about the lack of flip screen Damphousse! ;-) ). Without a tilting screen, this camera would benefit from an external monitor maybe more than a Sony or Panasonic.

Maybe BM should have included Canon, Sony and Nikon lens adaptors as that is what other users switching to this camera might be use to? 

Look, I know those suggestions are a little ridiculous but why not go for reliability and a superior feature over one that is severely flawed for the sake of what people may or may not be use to when it really doesn't cost much, if anything more?

Ultimately, HDMI is on consumer ILC cameras so people can film their kids, get home and plug the camera straight into the TV and watch the footage with the family. It's not there primarily for external monitoring. I Might be wrong, but I just can't see people doing that with this camera. You want to shoot filmic images, in RAW and with a flat Log prfile so you can edit and grade them. Who wants to share flat, dull looking images with their family? 

Anyway, progress would never be made if we always stuck with what people are use to.

2 hours ago, kye said:

IIRC the fashion is to have shallow depth of field but the killer technique with Sony users (no front-facing screen there either!) is to extend your arm out with fingers pointed up and focus on them, as when holding the camera that's the same focus distance as hand to your face..  :D

In reply to the above and also in general, we're in (yet another) situation where worlds collide.

World #1 is people who shoot RAW and see the camera as a tiny cinema camera.  In this sense SDI > HDMI and professional standards > consumer standards.

World #2 is people who want the 'best' ILC camera for under $2000.  In this sense, HDMI > SDI, consumer standards > professional standards, and front-facing buttons/screens/etc are nice features to have.

Neither world is wrong, it's just that before the DSLR revolution and YouTube these two worlds had never touched before.  Now they're in full collision mode.  Camera companies are trying to make products that appeal to both worlds and failing to connect, and both worlds look each other up and down then go back to whispering in separate groups like 10-year-olds in the school-yard.

In a decade we'll have worked out how big the market for online video is, how many people it can sustain at the various levels of quality, and what products make sense.

At the moment it's a mess, where the 'best vlogging camera' debate includes your phone, the RX100, the Canon M50, the Sony A7III, and the Pocket 2.  Any application that includes tools as varied as that lineup should indicate that we still haven't worked out what the hell is going on yet.

Both worlds benefit from SDI at really no penalty.

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

The absurdity of the complaints tells me this camera is going to be a hit.  People really expect a $1,000 camera to have SDI ports?!  There are complaints because for $1,000 a USB C port that outputs raw is tossed in just for fun?!

My how times have changed.  Looking back at what people were begging for three years ago I am rolling with laughter with the critiques in this thread.  If you don't want the camera don't buy it.  But please stop pretending this thing isn't damn near perfect.

Honestly if I were the people at Blackmagic I would tell a bunch of people to f off.  This camera is totally unprecedented.  They've given you the codecs and the ports.  It is up to you to figure out some hacks to make it work just the way you would like.

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

Yeah, the majority has been positive.  I just got rubbed the wrong way by some of the complaints about the full size HDMI, the USB-C that outputs raw,  and the front button placement.  No one is forcing anyone to use any of those options.  You can ignore all of them and have a perfectly fine $1,000 4k raw recording camera.  If Blackmagic throws in an extra button for free and someone doesn't like it they can just ignore it.  Screaming vloggers shouldn't use this camera is ridiculous.

Calm down dude. We should "F&*% Off" .....Really?

I do think this camera is pretty much perfect and at a great price. I pre-ordered as soon as I could. I never kicked and screamed about anything and have never dismissed this camera as no good, just made a few observations. You, coming in all guns blazing is typical of forum warriors looking for a fight. Chill.

SDI could have been done at a similar price point and would have far better suited this camera than HDMI. There are monitors for as little as $250 with SDI and its a far more secure connection and pretty much every other Blackmagic product has SDI. While I understand the Video Assist is much lower in tech that the Pocket4k, it costs $500 and has 2xHDMI and 2xSDI ports. The sdi ports are not bank breaking items and im not asking for more ports, it just would have been nice to see SDI as BNC ports will last longer than HDMI ports especially on a hand held camera thats going to get picked up and put down lots. Is it a deal breaker? No! Am I hating on BM for using HDMI? No.

In regard to USB-C, I just made an observation that my phone's USB-C port has not fared well over the last 15 or so months that I have had the phone and that the cable now easily falls out. I mentioned this for the many here who are planning on using the port excusively as the media is cheaper. I was just giving people a heads up in the hope that they look after the port and think about how they use it. Sorry if for some reason this offends you!

I couldn't care less about the front button placement as I'm no Vlogger. 

I will say that I think Blackmagic have crippled this camera to possibly protect their larger, more expensive cameras. How so you might ask, the camera has EVERYTHING!

They have crippled it in the marketing of it! This is no Vlogger camera. Sure, you can Vlog with it as Peter McKinnon Vlogs with his 1DX but Canon wouldn't market their 1DX as a Vloggers camera. If you are a Vlogger, go buy a camera with a flip screen, that records to a small 8 bit codec and has continuous autofocus. Thats all you need....you don't need RAW!

Maybe BM thought that us pro's couldnt see past the marketing and spend more by getting another UMP as a B-Cam but this camera will get used on higher end work as a B/C Camera and maybe even an A Cam on mid level work provided it lives up to the specs and doesn't have sensor issues.

BM should be applauded for what they have done with the Pocket4K! Their marketing team however...........

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

You've done it now.

I'm now envisaging AC/DC bringing out an album celebrating modern technology.

Haha, they could do a revival and call themeselves US⚡BC

Really sorry about that terrible dad joke!

2 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

I'd double check write speeds of those little drives. That one is only 65mbs. 

Which little drives are you referring to? 

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

If you use the camera everyday, then just buy a couple SD and/or a couple CF cards. I do not understand how suddenly recording on an external USB C drive became mandatory workflow, and puzzles us for 4 pages!

It offers another option, it doesn't mean that replaces other media completely.

Yes, that's what I'm planning to do.... Record internally. I was just mentioning a possible issue to others who might rely on the usbc connection hence me saying 'for those planning on using the usbc connector' 

6 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Even if you have 1tb media? If so, like others have suggested, disconnect the drive from the cable, not the cable from the camera during the shoot.

 

I wouldn't recommend 1tb dives. Too risky to have so much footing on the one drive if the drive where to fail. Unfortunately I've had drives fail on the UMP. I prefer to offload media a few times a day to seperate drives. 

29 minutes ago, jonpais said:

USB-C should be able to last some 7,000-8,000 insertions according to a non-scientific test done by tech-quickie.

The port will theoretically still work, but the mechanism to keep it in place will have worn out meaning it will fall out easily. Not so much an issue when you have a drive sitting on a desk motionless and the desk is supporting the cable but moving around hanging off a camera, that's another story. 

39 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

If you're having trouble with USBc slipping out, follow @BTM_Pix advice and epoxy it into the camera 

I'm willing to bet @Tone1k charges his phone every day, but this USBc port isn't going to see quite so much daily action.

Haha I was going to joke about that!

True, I do charge my phone every night. On a shoot though , I change media at least thee to four times a day. While I don't shoot every day, I would shoot most days so not to dissimilar in use to my phone considering I don't charge my phone 3-4 times a day. 

I suppose there are a few work arounds and the easiest is to disconnect the drives from the drive end and leave the cable plugged into the camera as much as possible. 

Just something to be take into consideration. 

1 minute ago, jonpais said:

It's going to need a clamp of some kind.

You got in before I finished my edit. Yep, a lock will definately be needed. A cage for this camera is needed to protect the HDMI and USB-C ports. I'd like a cage that leaves the right hand side hand grip accessable so as not to hinder hand holding the camera. 

Pretty sure one of the most famous YouTube Vloggers, Peter McKinnon, uses a Canon 1DC mkII to record his vlogs. No flip out screen and quite large for the task but the images look nice. Still wouldn't use RAW though. 

Anyway, to those intending to use the USB-C port to record to external drives..... The usbc port on my samsung galaxy s8 used to have a reassuring notch when plugging a usbc cable into it which would hold it in place. Sixteen months later and that notch is gone (worn out) and the usbc cable often falls out easily when plugged in and in my hand. 

I really don't think it's going to be a great option for recording once you've used the camera for a while. Might seem fine at first... I wonder how BM warranty will deal with the usb c port wearing out. Just wear and tear? 

Edit: maybe the solution is to never un plug the USB-C cable from the camera and instead unplug from the drive end. Or hopefully someone will soon make a cage that has a lock port device.... 

4 minutes ago, kye said:

I'm not sure what media that vloggers would end up using.

Options appear to be:

• SD cards - depending on what data rate is required (4K60 RAW would be huge!) the SD card might be quite costly!
• Cfast cards - might be cheaper than really fast SD cards?
• USB-C HDD - depending on the features and sizes these might also be in the running for cheapest media - would also add some bulk to the rig of course.

I don't think you can assume that SD cards are cheapest option without doing further analysis, and the answer might depend on resolution / frame rates / codec choice.

Vloggers might also own CFast cards already..  I do for my XC10, and any 5DIII or 1DX users will also have them.

hang on, the 5D might be Compact-Flash?  maybe strike the 5D..

Please don't tell me there are Vloggers out there that would shoot 4k60p RAW! 

We shoot a lot of higher end TVC's / docs on the Alexa Mini and even then shoot ProRes. 

Don't get me wrong, RAW is great, but no vlogger needs it. 

ProRes to SD Cards is all a vlogger needs. 

On 30/04/2018 at 5:39 AM, Anaconda_ said:

I've been building up a shopping list for when this comes in the post and I noticed something pretty strange here. 

The Samsung T5 drive prices are: 500gb - €173 or 1tb - €385

By my math, you save €40, if you just get 2 500gb drives, and that's going to be much easier to manage. You can then also split the costs over time if you need to. 

Similarly, the WD SSD USBc drives (which are tiny by the way) are priced: 512gb - €169 or 1tb - €355

So you save €15 and get an extra 24gb if you get 2 x 512gb

Does that strike you as strange? I always thought if you get the bigger drive, you'd save some money. 

EDIT:

The 250gb T5 is €109 and 256gb WD is €107, so you do save money if you get the 500gb/512gb versions. I wonder why this 'saving' isn't replicated on even further. 

FYI, I believe the Samsung T5 has a much faster write speed than the WD USBc drive.

24 minutes ago, DBounce said:

With the exception of locking connections the HDMI standard is superior to SDI. It supports 18GBit/s vs SDI’s 3Gb, 6Gb or 12Gb/s options. Longer runs can be accomplished with cat6. 

 

The official hdmi spec is as follows:

up to 16 bit RGB / 4:4:4 / 4:2:2 @30hz

If HDMI spec is not good enough for you, where exactly are you planning to play back your content, as everything supports the HDMI spec anyway?

The HDMI spec is pointless on this camera for two reasons. The camera only outputs 1080p via HDMI so you're not getting the HDMI spec benefits anyway. Secondly, even if they did enable 4k RAW out of the HDMI port, why would you choose to record it externally when you have better options in camera that don't rely on a risky connection that HDMI provides. 

It's not the tech spec of SDI that I want. 

I only need 1080p for monitoring but a SDI BNC connection is far more secure and I guarantee you that a BNC connection will outlast a flimsy HDMI port. 

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

 

Just offering a £50 SDI output option to be honest

 

Fair enough but converters require power and the whole thing just starts to get messy. 

Maybe they didn't want to canibilise their  own micro cameras and Ursa Broadcast. If the Pocket had sdi, people would want sdi control and start using it for multicam as it's an extremely attractive camera. HDMI only means that can't be done. 

On one hand you have a pocket camera that people think is aimed at Vloggers and amatures because of the price and on the other hand BM have given the Pocket 4k RAW, phantom powered XLR, locking Lemo for power, LTC timecode input, CFast slot plus many other features that clearly a vlogger or amature won't really use. 

Terrible marketing in their part really as I suppose they do say themselves that it's aimed at those lower end users. 

5 hours ago, Django said:

Looks like it outputs 1080p max via HDMI period. it's a bit  an odd limitation but then again with internal RAW/ProRes, not much reason to record externally so it seems the video out is there mainly for external monitoring purposes. I hate HDMI, it's unreliable on the field but hey can't have it all at this price point!

Exactly.

Im only interested in the external output for monitoring not recording. I do believe they could have chosen sdi though without adding much at all to the price. 

HDMI is a dicky system and considering BM have made such a fuss about the Pocket containing 'pro connections' and "locking power and xlr ports" strange to then put a hdmi port on there. 

In terms of buying external cages with an hdmi port lock, that kind of defeats the reasoning of choosing HDMI for budget reasons as you may as well spend the money on an SDI monitor. 

As for Epoxy on my camera connections... No thanks!

2 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

 

Well, that depends what you want the monitor for in the first place. If you just want to be able to frame the shot while you're not directly behind the camera, anything will do, even a $30 monitor. Just set the exposure etc based on the built in screen. I'm planning to use my Zacuto ZFinder EVF for outdoor shoots, and can also use it as an articulating monitor should I need to. That's far from a high end monitor.

What I mean by high end is something at least as good as the built in one. 

Either way, there are plenty of budget sdi option out there.

On the contrary to most views here, I think that if you are going to use an external monitor on the Pocket, you would want one that is fairly high end. I mean the camera already has a 5" 1080p panel. Surely if you want something better, then you don't want to be cheaping out on a 'budget' hdmi panel that's worse than the one the camera already has. I've used many budget panels and none of them are that great outdoors. Considering the price of the camera, you should be looking at something like the smallhd focus sdi as a minimum with all that money you have saved. 

If you do want to cheap out, there are monitors with sdi for around $300 on B&H. The main thing is though, that an sdi cable won't fall out when  you're shooting and won't get damaged nearly as easily as an hdmi port. 

Please BM, there's still time to swap out that HDMI port for a SDI port..... Please! 

Edit: actually I'll correct myself, an sdi monitor can be had on B&H for $250 if you're really on a tight budget. 

16 minutes ago, jonpais said:

How is HDMI the only option? Not sure I’m understanding. You mean the only way to monitor outside the camera? Because I don’t think you are correct.

Pretty sure I am correct. The HDMI port is the only way to get an image out of the camera for monitoring. The USB-C output is a data stream, not an image stream. 

1 minute ago, jonpais said:

And USB-C is ten times worse than full HDMI. 

Yep, but the Pocket4K offers far better alternatives to USB-C so I shouldn't have to use it. HDMI port on the other hand is the only option to get an image out of the camera. 

I'm not really complaining about the lack of SDI but it would have been nice. 

50 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

I think SDI is "too professional" for the market Blackmagic is in.  Unless you need external recorders, a lot of monitors in the lower-tier are HDMI only.  I don't know how feasible it is to offer both connection types, but I think HDMI is more in-line with the average $1300 camera user.  For pro use, that's a different story.  Hopefully the full-size is a good compromise and offers decent durability.

Are you saying that Blackmagic  are not in the Pro level of market because of their price or picture quality? 

We need to change our thinking as to who a camera is aimed at thanks to BM. Are you saying the Pocket 4K is aimed at amateurs because of its price alone? I'd say it's not based on it offering 4K RAW, phantom powered XLR, High level flavours of ProRes etc. Surely an amature doesn't need features like that? 

Any camera company who is smart will choose SDI over HDMI. SDI is a far superior connection and its locking function is critical for any work in the field. SDI can also be found on small Sony camcorders so not sure you can say it's 'too good' for BM. HDMI is a home media connection, was never designed to be used in the field at all! 

I agree with John, I would buy the Ninja V if it had SDI, without it, I won't consider it. 

3 hours ago, Toby Cork said:

I spent serious cash building a Pocket rig for serious pro use and it was a nightmare - a buggy mess in the end, with terrible support for the many hardware and software issues. But if you want to shoot five minutes of pretty broll of cityscapes? Works great. I also bought a BM4K and had FPN and many other issues. The URSA is a great camera, but there’s no way I’d trust BM again.

Your loss, I'm using the UMP on high end jobs where we would have previously used a Red Epic/ Alexa mini and it has been a joy. The 4k pocket is like a 3rd generation camera from BM, I think they have learnt a lot since the first gen pocket and production cameras. But hey, this is all speculation on a product that is six months out from being a reality. Silly talk really. 

6 hours ago, jonpais said:

I’d like to see someone fly that on a gimbal. Or shoot discretely with it. The Veydras are fast; affordable; optically brilliant; compact; and built completely of metal. They have user changeable mounts for Sony, Fuji and micro four thirds. $8,000 for two lenses is out of reach for most of us.

It's not set up for discreet shooting. It's actually not out of balance either but in either case, I wouldn't use that handle to pick it up anyway. 

3 hours ago, markr041 said:

I am glad you are rooting for Blackmagic and their anticompetitive strategy to increase market share. Stick to shooting video, you do not have a clue about the welfare consequences of business strategies and competition. Bundling is well known as an anti-competitive practice that hurts consumers. In this case, there are other editors that can or will work with the video from the new camera (duh, you think other software companies do not want people to use their software with the new camera?), and we should have the choice of what editor we want. Note, again, I have Resolve Studio - so this is not anti the software. But, I and all others that bought the software already lose from this practice. And those who do not want to use Resolve also lose. Who wins? BM. The only thing you have right is that they are trying to boost sales of Resolve, at the expense of consumer welfare.

Anticompetitive? Haha, now I've read it all. Give people more than what they expect for a steal of a price and some will still complain. Get a grip. Sell the dongle on ebay or buy another 'more competitive' camera for just over a grand that does internal 4k 12bit RAW and 10 Bit ProRes at 60p etc. 

The only thing ant competitive about BM is that they have just blown the competition out of the water.

Argh, that's why I try to avoid forums like this. People always whinging!

Good grief guys! Are people really complaining that they would like to have a cheaper option of the camera without resolve? As if the feature set v price is not good enough!!!??? 

Get a grip all,  how many cameras come with any editing software at all let alone the industry standard colour grading suite!

This camera is what it is. For the price, it's Amazing. If you can't make it work for you that's your issue, not the BMPCC4K's.