deezid

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well to me it doesn't really seem possible that they are that far off. I am no Sony Color Science fan, but I have seem some pretty good night time footage from them. This comparison doesn't really make sense to me.

To me it does. Just watch the AF comparison video from Max Yuryev. The GH5 doesn't do AF very well but smokes the Sony in terms of skintone reproduction, lol.

The Sony looks kinda messy again, with it's ugly Highlight Aliasing™ introduced in the FS700.
Wondering when they will finally fix that...

Apart from that, the GH5 wins every other category as well.

Interesting that both Cameras were at ISO1600 F4. What does that say about lowlight capabilities when Panasonic ISO 1600 is basically as bright as Sony ISO 3200?

Just now, Emanuel said:

One of the most interesting low light GH5 samples seen these days was shot through a 20 bucks 'plastic lens':

 

Reason why I had the need to open this protest here:

 

Well, Panasonic will say: At least it's free of noise, lol

4 minutes ago, Ken Ross said:

Absolutely true. I've watched this on my 5K iMac, 65" UHD OLED and 75" UHD LCD, and there is not a trace of moire. Further, I can't recall anyone ever complaining about moire with the GH5. As you've correctly said, sometimes the computer and/or monitor that's being used can easily cause these artifacts. That roof is squeaky clean.

How about a nice UV filter smeared with Vaseline. That  should give it that nice cinematic look that some are after.

Again, IQ is flawless on this camera, really high resolution 4k without any moire or aliasing. But the further processing really sucks for filmmakers. No professional camera does this.

Just now, Emanuel said:

Interesting opinion. I had found it more or less the same IQ, except the lack of optical low-pass filter, yes, which can introduce some artifacts, hope not though.

4:2:2 10-bit for tight bit rate doesn't help either. As same as 4K/60p for more or less the same data used with 24p. But, we have the external recording option, isn't it?

The problem isn't the codec or IQ, it's the heavy internal processing like sharpening (it's an unsharp mask with 1.5 radius actually even at -5 sharpening) and noisereduction which cannot be bypassed. 

DJI uses the same sensor with really cinematic results, by using no processing instead. 

1 minute ago, Emanuel said:

But, you've made it with your GH4... BTW, you should be hired for Lumix Luminary instead.

I just think the GH4 looks way more cinematic, seems way less processed to me. But Panasonic seems to be to proud about their new processing algorithms to allow for a mode without any processing like DJI, Blackmagic, RED, ARRI, Sony etc do...

The more footage I see from this camera the more I'm worried about. I've seen zero evidence yet, that this camera can look cinematic at all.

Everythings looks processed as hell, makes me want to sell all my Panasonic stuff and switch over to URSA Mini Pro instead...
It would have been so easy, but Panasonic simply isn't interested to provide a processing free mode (DJI does it with the same sensor, results are amazing!).

I would always recommend the Beyerdynamic DT250. They sound better than the Sennheiser HD25, thanks to way less distortions and higher resolution and bigger stage, while still being closed and neutral in terms of frequency response.

Actually they're way better than my ATH M50x I had before!

7 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

I was only interested in 10bit for V-Log L.

The GH5 is still amazing, no doubt, but it was so close to being epic...the compression and odd 10bit implementation just kills it for me.

Not sure the 400Mbps ALL-I can save it. Really don't wanna use an external recorder - that'll basically defeat what attracted me to the GH5 in the first place.

I don't see any problem with the codec or 10 bit or 9 bit color information, the quite strong processing even when sharpening and nr is turned down to -5 worries me quite more. No professional camera does this...

8 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

2017, and we're still not getting real 10bit from the billion dollar tech giants.

Blackmagic for the win.

that's like 9.5 Bit for their Prores files...

1 hour ago, Philip Lipetz said:

ike709 is not supposed to be truncated. Is the external VLog feed truncated? 

It's exactly the same as the internal one. 10 Bit (or 9 Bit).

Still 4 times more information than the the 8 Bit V-Log on the GH4...

1 minute ago, Simon Shasha said:

Indeed. Whenever I shoot 8bit DSLR, I always use grain to dither the 8bit compression and poor gradation. Works well.

Nothing like a true 10bit image with a great codec, though. My Micro and Pocket are really making me second-guess the two GH5 pre-orders I have.

Not sure the 400Mbps ALL-I can fix this. Hope so.

It seems like every of these clips used internal noise reduction and sharpening at 0 or even worse.

So I think the problem isn't there when setting the camera up properly.

Just now, Simon Shasha said:

I thought so. Grain tends to hide rough gradations.

That's why I would never use any noise reduction or sharpening in the first place. Basically you have lots of fine grain on any professional camera, even the BM ones. It helps a lot.

2 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

Did you add grain?

Also, show me 100% 4K render.

Added grain and blur actually. Not a big fan of the digital look this camera produces using sharpening: 0

As for full 4k, download original

25 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

This is a breakdown in the codec. You want to portray it as something else, that's up to you. I am seeing it all over the place, even when I grade the image very lightly.

And if you grade at 100%, like I do, you will even see it in the ungraded image. My Blackmagic Pocket and Micro do not suffer from this.

Regardless, I'm brand agnostic. When I see shit, I'll call it out. What I am seeing here is a shit codec.

The Codec defintely didn't break up, the colorgrading did!

Look at my example:

It's basically adding lots of saturation, then contrast using curves (find a proper black value using the waveform!), shifting the hues (bright green a bit to yellow, yellow a bit to orange, orange slightly to red, red a bit to magenta), desaturating shadows and highlights, desaturating bright oranges (helps for skintones as well), pushing gray or low saturation mid and dark tones (not black though, leave dark skin color the way it is!) to teal a bit, adding a bit of grain.

That's it basically. :D 

17 minutes ago, lafilm said:

Bump.

Well for the second question, if you're using V-log you can just create a monochrome LUT and upload it to the GH5.

9 minutes ago, Vladimir said:

There's one little missing feature on GH5 that makes me really sad because otherwise it would be close to perfect tool: there's no internal 10-bit 1080p60 for 4:3 mode. That feature can make GH5 really special for me. But since that option is missing even in planned fw updates - im looking toward X-T2 (much better photo camera, better low-light and color science and rock solid 8bit 1080p60) or BM Micro if i chose to split photo and video for different body. Also waiting for what Sony would offer.

Why not using the 6k Photomode in 4:3 instead which IS 10 bit 420 instead?

Besides the colorscience I only see drawbacks to the GH5 as a filmmaker...

Oh gotcha. The 4k Photomode is 60p, 4:3 or 3:2 and probably 10bit as well, there haven't been any files to download and analyze for me yet.

6 minutes ago, Herbert Massey said:

Glad to hear you like it, Andrew. I need something to replace my NX1. It's always a mixed bag with a new camera. Another person I trust said it was on par with the A7sII color wise and just as hard to arrive at a pleasant grade. 

I actually trust Kholi as well, but not this time. Comparing V-Log to S-Log on the A7sII? C'mon... 
If it is nearly as good as V-Log on the GH4 it'll put the A7sII to shame in terms of color science.

Watch my showreel to see what I mean:

Almost 99% internal V-Log!

And yes, I've been using the a7sII quite a lot, always struggeling with the color, even using different profiles and combinations (such as Cine4, Slog2/3 SGamut 3.cine/3/2 etc). On the GH4 I just hit the portrait profile with:
Contrast 0
Sharpening -5
NR -5
Saturation -2
Hue 1

And it looks almost identical to the color corrected RAW output of the FS5...

12 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Shot with it yesterday and it's impressive. Colour is much better, you can tell it is 4:2:2 and 10bit. You've all been looking at badly graded V-LOG on YouTube at tiny bitrates compressed to 8bit 4:2:0.

The only downside of the 10bit files is they are hard to edit natively.

I can see a lot of transcoding to ProRes ahead.

ProRes would have been a much more suitable codec than H.264 on a camera with the GH5's performance... But the quality is there in spades. Amazing saturation and realism, super smooth feel to the files.

I'm just shooting on Standard BTW.

Nice to hear that. Can't wait to get my hands on it (moved to the US before the GH5 arrived in Europe, lol).
Can you try if the Dynamic Range is better using Portrait mode (my goto if I don't have any time to colorgrade footage on the GH4)? It seems that highlights blow out incredibly fast on the GH5 compared to the GH4 or people don't know what they're doing, lol...

22 minutes ago, Ken Ross said:

See it's that close-minded attitude I'm talking about. Thanks for demonstrating that. To answer your question, no, when I watch, even on a 75" UHD TV, I am not watching a picture 'full of sharpening halos and other more pronounced artifacts'. If I did, I'd change my settings. Artifacts like these are clearly visible in scenes where tree limbs are set against a sky. Of course you know that seating distance, relative to screen size, plays a role in how much detail & artifacts you see.

But thanks for playing and you can keep your S7.  

Thanks for calling me close-minded.

I actually should be glad that almost nobody cares about producing filmic/organic looking video and should stop giving away any information how to do so.

People don't understand why they like filmic looking footage, but they pay when they see something not looking like being made with a smartphone, lol.

 

27 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I thought you might enjoy that.  

On the GH5, you can turn sharpening down to -6, so there's still hope!

-6 would be nice actually, since -5 still shows slight hints of oversharpening halos (no dealbreaker here, optical filters will take care of the rest). Not quite RED/ARRI/BM/SONY etc... like, but a bit better than the GH4 already.

10 minutes ago, Ken Ross said:

And truth be told, guys like me and those that like the 'video look', don't fall in love with what we see as soft, heavily graded videos. It all depends on the look you're after and what you're trying to capture. Similarly I don't think I'd like HFR theatrical movies, because I've grown up with the 24fps filmic look. Yet for the things I shoot, I prefer that 'video look'. That doesn't make you right and me wrong or vice versa, it's just what we prefer. 

What surprises me more is the apparently close-minded attitude that some people have to these different looks...a true 'right & wrong' attitude. There just isn't a 'right & wrong', it's a preference.

BTW, I watch videos on my 27" 5K iMac as well as a 75" 4K LCD and 65" OLED. They look great on any of them.

So you prefer are picture full of sharpening halos and other (more pronounced) artifacts instead of real detail? Well my Galaxy S7 should suit you then, lol

Sharpening 0 equals to Sharpening -5 + an unsharp mask of 2.2px and 50% applied
(Actually could be 2Px width as well)

5 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Maybe it's got to do with how they're viewing the videos? I use a 27" iMac, maybe it's not so bothersome on a 75" backlit OLED HDR television?

I use two 4k screens. One 27" IPS LG calibrated (Delta values below 1 for each color). And a 40" Philipps MVA screen. 
The bigger the screen is, the worse the sharpening looks.

What I don't understand is, why do people love videoish sharpening?

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

@Phil A I thought the same as you.

Using Google translate, the SlashCAM review says,  

In all video modes, only an estimated 4768 horizontal pixels are used, which corresponds to a crop factor of 2.26. This is true for full, 4K-UHD as well as for Cine4K formats. Unexpected exception is slow motion (see below).

Other stuff I found along the way, they also recommend dialing sharpening down as far as it will go, and note that it is possible to reduce sharpening a bit more than with the GH4. Oversharpening is something I've remarked in a number of videos we've already seen online. They also observe that the base ISO is 400, not only in V-log, but also in Standard Picture Profile. They seem quite impressed with the camera.

Maybe we start seeing some Videos without this ridiculous oversharpening from now on.

Nah... :D
I really don't get why people love this oversharpened videolook, even Emmanuel Pampuri does (discussed with him on this topic)...
It affects fine detail and motion cadence in a very bad way as well, but nobody cares...