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Bought the Canon 1DC

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I turned to the Dark Side.  Darth FilmMan.  I got stupid last week.  Let me rephrase that.  I got dumber than usual.  I was talking to a sales guy about the Canon 1DC.  I said, "sharpen your pencil, and give me a price that will make me buy."  I bought it -  I still paid too much.  Then I ordered Lexar 1000x cards and another battery from other places.  So I get the camera, cards and extra battery.   At first I was questioning my decision.  Then not questioning myself.  Anyway, I won't keep rambling.   I was putting up stuff on Vimeo but the compression for a non-plus member is not as good.  So I put some stuff on YouTube.  Here's a quick shot of my neighbor.  90 mm lens.  4K footage down sampled to 1080p.  Then uploaded to the Tuber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lii3vOm3p7w

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Footage looks really good, can you upload the native 1080 stuff on a files haring service? I see some banding in the background, but I assume that is youtube. The skin-tones are amazing.

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Hi HurtinMinorKey,

 

I'll have to figure how to do the file sharing.  In the background, it was quite dark  and there was some junk sitting there.  The camera sensor is really sensitive and seemed to be flickering abit too.  I'll have to make sure I'm not the issue or if it is a camera issue.  Probably me.  Might have been the rums.  The camera is challenging, and I'm a slow learning.   Cheers. 

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Well done man!  I have come close to signing away my life for a 2yr interest free deal on the 1DC.  I'm yet to let my mad brain allow it, but I have come almost too close!   Hope you enjoy it.  I think you just bought the best value camera at the moment (and I'm being serious).  

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Thanks Rickg101,

I had a weak moment and thought no guts no glory. I went for it. I'll update how things are as I use it.  Cheers.

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Hi HurtinMinorKey,

 

You have a good eye.  I looked at the footage a little more.  Behind my neighbor there was a computer box.  The writing is the culprit.  In the original footage no problem - perfect.  In the color grade it suffers  - but the box was not in too much light.  The writing on the box, which is black and is blurred due being out of focus, becomes "whacked out" or looks like banding.  This happened after pushing the footage a little too much in grading.  I guess I could have masked that portion of the footage.  

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Hey ScreensPro,

 

Thanks for posting.  Saw that before but forgot about it.  I've been playing with the 4K and I haven't even tried other modes yet such as S35.  

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Good for you. did your store provide you with a 30 day money back guarantee or a restocking fee? I think Q1 and Q2 are weird times to invest in 4K. However as someone had mentioned shooting 4k for stock footage commissions is not a bad idea. slow mo is underrated. 60p minimum at 4k.

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4k downscaled to 1080p for the effect of 4:4:4 is indeed the key, but s35 is true s35 as good as any 1080p sensor'd camera out there from my research.  I imagine the s35 crop mode is about as sharp as the c300, c100 and probably beats the fs100, and has a higher bitrate in camera, onto card codec.   If I recall, s35 crop mode is nearly the same as c300 straight to card,

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I wonder if the S35 crop mode keeps its resolution through the HDMI out?

 

Would be a sweet little setup, if you get C300'esque 1080p pro-res 4:2:2, for those jobs that don't need 4K.

 

Also, filmman, if you get a chance.. can you see if the S35 crop mode can do 60p? If it does... Then getting C300 quality 1080/60p is a huge plus point.

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Good for you. did your store provide you with a 30 day money back guarantee or a restocking fee? I think Q1 and Q2 are weird times to invest in 4K. However as someone had mentioned shooting 4k for stock footage commissions is not a bad idea. slow mo is underrated. 60p minimum at 4k.

Hi Leang,

Didn't ask about restocking or 30 day.  I plan on using this 1DC for my flic this year .  I needed a mobile camera which can give quality. I'm testing different lighting situations to get a feel as to the horsepower of this camera.  I did some shots outside the other day under a gloomy day - shots were not bad.  I want to take more outdoor shots but the weather is around -20 C.  I'm planning on some indoor shots tomorrow with my neighbor. 

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I wonder if the S35 crop mode keeps its resolution through the HDMI out?

 

Would be a sweet little setup, if you get C300'esque 1080p pro-res 4:2:2, for those jobs that don't need 4K.

 

Also, filmman, if you get a chance.. can you see if the S35 crop mode can do 60p? If it does... Then getting C300 quality 1080/60p is a huge plus point.

Hi ScreensPro,

 

S35 doesn't do 60p.  1080p will do 60p.  Cheers.

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4k downscaled to 1080p for the effect of 4:4:4 is indeed the key, but s35 is true s35 as good as any 1080p sensor'd camera out there from my research.  I imagine the s35 crop mode is about as sharp as the c300, c100 and probably beats the fs100, and has a higher bitrate in camera, onto card codec.   If I recall, s35 crop mode is nearly the same as c300 straight to card,

i think that intelligently sampling from the native 4K mjpegs can reap extraordinary benefits. As long as the native mjpegs don't band, you effectively get a higher bit depth.   

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Hi Leang,

Didn't ask about restocking or 30 day.  I plan on using this 1DC for my flic this year .  I needed a mobile camera which can give quality. I'm testing different lighting situations to get a feel as to the horsepower of this camera.  I did some shots outside the other day under a gloomy day - shots were not bad.  I want to take more outdoor shots but the weather is around -20 C.  I'm planning on some indoor shots tomorrow with my neighbor. 

 

-20c, same as here in Finland. Good thing the 1dc is weather sealed. That's one of the great things about DSLR's, they tend to be way better sealed than videocams.

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Took a couple of shots of my son.  Used Neutral then Canon Log.  Neutral was fine.  With CANON LOG, when adjusting the shadows and highlights within legal limits, one gets some banding in the image!  Piss me off.  I'm going to do some more testing this afternoon with the neighbor. 

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Took a couple of shots of my son.  Used Neutral then Canon Log.  Neutral was fine.  With CANON LOG, when adjusting the shadows and highlights within legal limits, one gets some banding in the image!  Piss me off.  I'm going to do some more testing this afternoon with the neighbor. 

 

The problem with a those Log color space on most cam, is that it is 8-bit. There is a lot of bits reserved for highlights but not much for mid-tone and almost nothing for shadow. It is almost useless in 8bit.

 

Even more, if your shadows and highlight are not using the full dynamic range and you stretch them a lot in post, you'll get a lot of banding.

 

I would use 8-bit Log only in a controlled environnement (eg. studio) where the highlights and shadows use the entire dynamic range.

 

I really think that Log should be at least 10bits.

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Took a couple of shots of my son.  Used Neutral then Canon Log.  Neutral was fine.  With CANON LOG, when adjusting the shadows and highlights within legal limits, one gets some banding in the image!  Piss me off.  I'm going to do some more testing this afternoon with the neighbor. 

 

 

are you grading with a 32bit workflow?  so all your effects applied to the image are 32bit?  Your banding should disappear all together with a 32bit workflow, even with 8bit original capture

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The problem with a those Log color space on most cam, is that it is 8-bit. There is a lot of bits reserved for highlights but not much for mid-tone and almost nothing for shadow. It is almost useless in 8bit.

 

Even more, if your shadows and highlight are not using the full dynamic range and you stretch them a lot in post, you'll get a lot of banding.

 

I would use 8-bit Log only in a controlled environnement (eg. studio) where the highlights and shadows use the entire dynamic range.

 

I really think that Log should be at least 10bits.

Hi chauffeurdevan,

 

You are totally right.  Used controlled lighting today and noticed this to be the case.  I think 10 bit would solve the issue or improve it.  I noticed the controlled lighting has to be very controlled - error can bite you in the butt. 

 

Under non controlled light, I took 2 shots in front of a window (the light from the window shone on my son).  Exposure was good, the light source was good, etc.  One shot was neutral and the other Canon log.  In my son's face (skin color broke apart between brighter to darker when color corrected - shadows and highlights adjusted).  The neutral held - although under further looking, I noticed very, very slight banding too.

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are you grading with a 32bit workflow?  so all your effects applied to the image are 32bit?  Your banding should disappear all together with a 32bit workflow, even with 8bit original capture

Hi richg101,

 

I use 32 bit workflow so I was surprised with the 1DC's footage not holding better. 

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Hi richg101,

 

I use 32 bit workflow so I was surprised with the 1DC's footage not holding better. 

 

Without applying some kind of chroma filtering (some codecs do this, or have options to) you will retain banding in a 32bit workflow if it exists in the original footage.  32bit isn't going to create transitional data where there was none (not without intentionally applying another process expressly to do so, or by some byproduct of that process).  If the 8bit source bands a first step transcode to 32bit will band unless it's filtered or dithered.  Make sure you're also not introducing it with some discrepancy in your color management, just as a "crazy check".

 

8bit 4:4:4 can band, and does band, given the right material.  That's why all the better 601 gear quickly had to step it up to 10bits by at least the early 1990s at the latest.  Even with only 720x480 pixels you couldn't rely on 8bit uncompressed to not band, especially when transcoding.  

 

The fellows at Amblin found this out the hard way when they were doing the FX for the pilot episode of SeaQuest DSV and had to put in an 11th Hour call to the image format experts at ASDG who wrote them special drivers for their digital disc recorders to filter the incoming chroma, smoothing out the big, nasty bands that all of a sudden showed up in all of their foggy, blue underwater shots.

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Hi BurnetRohoades,

 

There was no banding in the original footage.  I think my workflow is okay - although I'm prone to errors.   The footage banded in a very small area when I did a quick grade - on a very small portion of skin banding was apparent.    I tried the footage in another program and it doesn't band as bad when applying the same correction.  I'm trying to learn the weaknesses of the 1DC so I know what to look out for.  This camera is very sensitive to light.  I wish Canon would have elected upon 10 bit instead of 8 bit.  Canon may get lots of banding footage posted in the near future if this problem persists.  To be fair, I can't really make an accurate assessment yet, till I experiment more.  Cheers.

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The fellows at Amblin found this out the hard way when they were doing the FX for the pilot episode of SeaQuest DSV and had to put in an 11th Hour call to the image format experts at ASDG who wrote them special drivers for their digital disc recorders to filter the incoming chroma, smoothing out the big, nasty bands that all of a sudden showed up in all of their foggy, blue underwater shots.

 

No, that was actually because of 4:2:0. That's why dvd's where there is a predominant color (blue/red), the chroma looks horrible. Has nothing to do with 8 bit.

 

One thing that takes away most of the banding in 8bit material nowadays is Neat Video. Great noise reduction but when using it in a 32-bit workflow, it really does miracles. You can just use it with almost no noise reduction at all and it will still smooth out the material into 32-bits really, really well. Surprising how well it works really. I've had shots where regular 32-bit grading showed a bit of banding that disappeared completely after a very slight adding of Neat Video.

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No, that was actually because of 4:2:0. That's why dvd's where there is a predominant color (blue/red), the chroma looks horrible. Has nothing to do with 8 bit.

 

Uh, no, this was being shot to a $60,000-80,000 Accom or Abekas digital disk recorder before being put to uncompressed digital tape for network broadcast.  DVDs were almost ten years away from existing at the consumer level.  It has everything to do with transcoding between YUV and RGB at 8bits.  You don't know what you're talking about here.

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