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6k for a new camera...not sure what to get...would be happy to hear your input

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Hello everyone I've had some fun with the gh2 but it's time for me to upgrade.

Budget: around 6k

What I want:

- 2k resolution ( I would like to take part in film festivals, I know I could upscale 1080p but I'd rather not and shoot 2k)
- raw ( I want the flexibility in post and dynamic range that comes with it, this is the most important aspect to me)

What I already own is a lot of great m4/3 glass and one 50mm canon EF 1.2L lens.

So basically the perfect fit for me would be the bmcc m4/3.
But who knows when it will come out considering how bad the delays are for the EF version already...
So that one is off the list for me.

For that price I can get a working red one mx but what is holding me back is that it is big and heavy and comes with a nikon mount.

I'd be very happy to hear your thoughts and recommendations

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I don't know of any film festivals that would accept 2k but not 1080p. Anyway, if you want RAW and have 6k to spend, I think it's a no brainer, go for the Red One.

Your m43 lenses might not cover the entire sensor, but if they do maybe you can find an adapter?

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I'd say wait until the end of Q1 - '13. we'll definitely have a better picture to recap the hype of this year. Also see what RED's Dragon upgrade will cost for Scarlett. Maybe by that time you might have some extra cash for a Scarlett and sell all your current gear for accessories needed. RED code is still safe and will still be strong for the next 2 years or more until they design a more efficient codec with the same results, or by that time SSD drive pricing will be far more cheap. the current syndrome for what medium to capture with, such as your questions, is a universal challenge. the smart ones ATM are being patient for further news.

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[quote name='Bruno' timestamp='1352210181' post='21142']
I don't know of any film festivals that would accept 2k but not 1080p. Anyway, if you want RAW and have 6k to spend, I think it's a no brainer, go for the Red One.

Your m43 lenses might not cover the entire sensor, but if they do maybe you can find an adapter?
[/quote]

oh sure film festivals accept 1080p, I guess most of their submissions are shot in 1080p rather than 2k.
I meant if it's projected in 2k I would rather shoot it in 2k rather than upscale in post.

I don't think if I get the red one mx I would bother witn m4/3 lens, pl lenses are affordable in rental.

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spend 5k on lenses. hire the camera with the remaining 1k when you need it.. You'll get a bmc for under £250 a week which gives you around 4weeks use. done!:) raise the 1k for the next project from saving over the year.

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get a RED ONE MX - ITS A NO BRAINER!
This camera has shot major Hollywood hit films
Its 4k so has future life build in if you want to shoot more than 2k in the future

lots of cheap parts on ebay
I just picked up a RED ONE 19" rod base plate for $30!! bargin!

Get a rig for it , its not that heavy !
I pretty much shoot everything on a rig even with my GH2 and Canons as it gives a much more stable platform to work from
I use the TECNOIR CINEMA RIG with my GH2 ......

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[quote name='Leang' timestamp='1352210906' post='21144']
I'd say wait until the end of Q1 - '13. we'll definitely have a better picture to recap the hype of this year. Also see what RED's Dragon upgrade will cost for Scarlett. Maybe by that time you might have some extra cash for a Scarlett and sell all your current gear for accessories needed. RED code is still safe and will still be strong for the next 2 years or more until they design a more efficient codec with the same results, or by that time SSD drive pricing will be far more cheap. the current syndrome for what medium to capture with, such as your questions, is a universal challenge. the smart ones ATM are being patient for further news.
[/quote]

I hear you but camera announcements just keep on coming and you can end up waiting forever.
I'm sure the dragon sensor will be amazing, but specs wise the bmcc is sufficient for my personal needs.

You know I even considered the kineraw, but I already contacted them twice and they said there is no sign of an european re-seller yet so that would make support very difficult so I think I will pass on them as well. They said I could buy directly from them but that I should get custom clearance first. Wonder how that actually works.

Since I don't own any Nikon Glass, I think the smartest if I get the red one is to ditch the nikon mount and save up 500usd and just rent PL lenses.

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[quote name='richg101' timestamp='1352211644' post='21146']
spend 5k on lenses. hire the camera with the remaining 1k when you need it.. You'll get a bmc for under £250 a week which gives you around 4weeks use. done! :) raise the 1k for the next project from saving over the year.
[/quote]

this gives me a headache all the time, should I rent should I buy...
But I think that considering the camera is only 4k it is smarter to buy the cam and rent the glass in this instance.
bmcc in rental...first they have to get them out of the factory ;-)

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[quote name='andy lee' timestamp='1352211767' post='21148']
get a RED ONE MX - ITS A NO BRAINER!
This camera has shot major Hollywood hit films
Its 4k so has future life build in if you want to shoot more than 2k in the future

lots of cheap parts on ebay
I just picked up a RED ONE 19" rod base plate for $30!! bargin!

Get a rig for it , its not that heavy !
I pretty much shoot everything on a rig even with my GH2 and Canons as it gives a much more stable platform to work from
I use the TECNOIR CINEMA RIG with my GH2 ......
[/quote]

thanks for the tip

which basic rig would you recommend for the red one?

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If you're leaning towards the BMC mft, then you're going to have to wait anyway & you'll save money on glass.
In the meantime you could rent a RED One for a day & see how you like it - what do you loose (ok a bit of cash, but you gain peace of mind).

I just stopped myself buying the Red!
Have you looked at the following?

http://www.ikonoskop.com/
or
http://www.digitalbolex.com/

I'd wait if i were you, as there is more to come.

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Intersting times indeed. I'm tempted with the REDmx especially with the price. Once this old stock (which is still ahead of the curve) is gone, then Scarlet and Epic remain, unless Red puts out another camera. There are a host of other cameras coming on the scene. Will Panasonic put out a contender? Will Sony adjust their pricing to make it too tempting? Will Red adjust pricing again? Will Canon lower pricing? Will JVC put out their interchangeable 4k camera? Digital Bolex is coming. BMC is almost here. Will BMC put out a 4K model or bigger sensor model in April? I'd go for a REDmx over the Kineraw by the way. I'm sitting tight for now but may change my mind. It is a tough decision and many are in the same boat, so you are not alone. If you make a decision, please let us know. Cheers.

If Hero can put out a $400 camera that is 2K then it is safe to assume there will be more cameras with that spec coming in the near future. When is the question?

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If I'd had the money when the announcement came, I'd've got a Red One, any other choice seems mad.

Regardless of paper spec, you've seen Red on the big screen plenty of times. The footage is amazing. It's not that easy to use but hey, look at the footage!!! I've always been jealous of those who could shoot every whim on Red, DSLRs don't come close right now. Now that the Red costs very little, think of second hand prices soon... I love 550D, Sony FS700, C300 but one has to be realistic, the Red One cinema camera produces incredible images in comparison.

I've watched lots of great movies shot with Red One, I've only seen some really OK stuff shot with the BMD cam. Is that down to who's shooting with it? Maybe... but so far it's never looked quite as instantly cinema-like as Red footage. A lot of it has looked very camcorder like.

And BMD is not out yet. I'd've cancelled on bloody principle by now if i'd ordered one... can you imagine what'll happen if they need to do a factory recall, or you need any servicing when the BMD actually arrives? Confidece is knocked now, lot's of making up to do.
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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1352213103' post='21152']
thanks for the tip

which basic rig would you recommend for the red one?
[/quote]

Dont be put off by shooting with rigs - thats how the Red was designed to be used.
i would pick up parts off ebay cheap , you can mix n match Tecnoir, Red , Wooden Camera , etc all are Red compatable

[url="http://www.tecnoir.co.uk"]http://www.tecnoir.co.uk[/url]

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What about the Silicon Imaging SI-2K camera? It just popped in my mind. It'd be like a 16mm camera (it has a 2/3" sensor) that shoots 2K RAW through Cineform RAW. It's the camera that was used to shoot almost the entire "Slumdog Millionaire" movie, and that one won Best Cinematography (if that matters at all).
I made a quick search to see where they were at, and found no new info. It might be out of production, I don't know. Can't even find a price for it, let alone someone selling it (except here, but you have to contact them: [url="http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm-si2k-mini.php"]http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm-si2k-mini.php[/url]).

Here are some samples in a quirky page but with high quality downloadable Quicktime videos.

[url="http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/gallery_main.html"]http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/gallery_main.html[/url]

It's an old camera so to speak. Came along around the time the RED ONE was being talked about. But looking at some images I remember why I liked it back then.
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[quote name='jgharding' timestamp='1352216410' post='21155']
If I'd had the money when the announcement came, I'd've got a Red One, any other choice seems mad.

Regardless of paper spec, you've seen Red on the big screen plenty of times. The footage is amazing. It's not that easy to use but hey, look at the footage!!! I've always been jealous of those who could shoot every whim on Red, DSLRs don't come close right now. Now that the Red costs very little, think of second hand prices soon... I love 550D, Sony FS700, C300 but one has to be realistic, the Red One cinema camera produces incredible images in comparison.

I've watched lots of great movies shot with Red One, I've only seen some really OK stuff shot with the BMD cam. Is that down to who's shooting with it? Maybe... but so far it's never looked quite as instantly cinema-like as Red footage. A lot of it has looked very camcorder like.

And BMD is not out yet. I'd've cancelled on bloody principle by now if i'd ordered one... can you imagine what'll happen if they need to do a factory recall, or you need any servicing when the BMD actually arrives? Confidece is knocked now, lot's of making up to do.
[/quote]

I agree Red One Mx is a great camera very cheap now!

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[quote name='Bioskop.Inc' timestamp='1352213250' post='21153']
If you're leaning towards the BMC mft, then you're going to have to wait anyway & you'll save money on glass.
In the meantime you could rent a RED One for a day & see how you like it - what do you loose (ok a bit of cash, but you gain peace of mind).

I just stopped myself buying the Red!
Have you looked at the following?

[url="http://www.ikonoskop.com/"]http://www.ikonoskop.com/[/url]
or
[url="http://www.digitalbolex.com/"]http://www.digitalbolex.com/[/url]

I'd wait if i were you, as there is more to come.
[/quote]

thanks for your input and links much appreciated but none of theses cameras are appealing to me

[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1352214433' post='21154']
Intersting times indeed. I'm tempted with the REDmx especially with the price. Once this old stock (which is still ahead of the curve) is gone, then Scarlet and Epic remain, unless Red puts out another camera. There are a host of other cameras coming on the scene. Will Panasonic put out a contender? Will Sony adjust their pricing to make it too tempting? Will Red adjust pricing again? Will Canon lower pricing? Will JVC put out their interchangeable 4k camera? Digital Bolex is coming. BMC is almost here. Will BMC put out a 4K model or bigger sensor model in April? I'd go for a REDmx over the Kineraw by the way. I'm sitting tight for now but may change my mind. It is a tough decision and many are in the same boat, so you are not alone. If you make a decision, please let us know. Cheers.

If Hero can put out a $400 camera that is 2K then it is safe to assume there will be more cameras with that spec coming in the near future. When is the question?
[/quote]

I agree very exciting times but very scary times when you are about to put a lot of money in a camera.
Like you said so many pop out of nowhere....

[quote name='jgharding' timestamp='1352216410' post='21155']
If I'd had the money when the announcement came, I'd've got a Red One, any other choice seems mad.

Regardless of paper spec, you've seen Red on the big screen plenty of times. The footage is amazing. It's not that easy to use but hey, look at the footage!!! I've always been jealous of those who could shoot every whim on Red, DSLRs don't come close right now. Now that the Red costs very little, think of second hand prices soon... I love 550D, Sony FS700, C300 but one has to be realistic, the Red One cinema camera produces incredible images in comparison.

I've watched lots of great movies shot with Red One, I've only seen some really OK stuff shot with the BMD cam. Is that down to who's shooting with it? Maybe... but so far it's never looked quite as instantly cinema-like as Red footage. A lot of it has looked very camcorder like.

And BMD is not out yet. I'd've cancelled on bloody principle by now if i'd ordered one... can you imagine what'll happen if they need to do a factory recall, or you need any servicing when the BMD actually arrives? Confidece is knocked now, lot's of making up to do.
[/quote]

Agreed on everything. The red one mx is a proven camera and Bmcc has lost all trust on my side as well.

[quote name='andy lee' timestamp='1352221945' post='21162']
Dont be put off by shooting with rigs - thats how the Red was designed to be used.
i would pick up parts off ebay cheap , you can mix n match Tecnoir, Red , Wooden Camera , etc all are Red compatable

[url="http://www.tecnoir.co.uk"]http://www.tecnoir.co.uk[/url]
[/quote]

Their basic production pack rig is so expensive, I would like to find some alternatives.
I'll look into tecnoir

[quote name='charlie_orozco' timestamp='1352221955' post='21163']
What about the Silicon Imaging SI-2K camera? It just popped in my mind. It'd be like a 16mm camera (it has a 2/3" sensor) that shoots 2K RAW through Cineform RAW. It's the camera that was used to shoot almost the entire "Slumdog Millionaire" movie, and that one won Best Cinematography (if that matters at all).
I made a quick search to see where they were at, and found no new info. It might be out of production, I don't know. Can't even find a price for it, let alone someone selling it (except here, but you have to contact them: [url="http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm-si2k-mini.php"]http://www.pstechnik...m-si2k-mini.php[/url]).

Here are some samples in a quirky page but with high quality downloadable Quicktime videos.

[url="http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/gallery_main.html"]http://www.siliconim...llery_main.html[/url]

It's an old camera so to speak. Came along around the time the RED ONE was being talked about. But looking at some images I remember why I liked it back then.
[/quote]

very interesting never heard of that camera thanks for sharing
but I did some research on the price and it seems to be around 15k, at least that is the price I found maybe they got cheaper

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So Red One qty are avail?

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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1352223103' post='21166']
very interesting never heard of that camera thanks for sharing
but I did some research on the price and it seems to be around 15k, at least that is the price I found maybe they got cheaper
[/quote]

Uff! If that's the price then it'd make no sense to get it. You can buy a Lightweight Scarlet pack for that!

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[quote name='charlie_orozco' timestamp='1352223325' post='21168']
Uff! If that's the price then it'd make no sense to get it. You can buy a Lightweight Scarlet pack for that!
[/quote]

yup [url="http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Files/SI%20Price%20List%20May%202007.pdf.old"]http://www.siliconim...ay 2007.pdf.old[/url]
at least in 2007... wonder how much they cost now
looked around but could not find any website selling them

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Yeah, RED one. The only thing that keeps me from getting one (other then just plane not having the money) is the weight and recording media. I don't think I need to go over the cost of he media. It's just ludicrous really. I've never picked one up so I don't know for sure but I see them all the time. Just about all the studios that I work for here in town have one or two. I've never seen anyone even try to shoot hand held with it. It always looks like they are straining themselves just to lift it onto or off of the tripods and dollies. But again, this is all just based on what I see and not what I know for myself. Oh wait, I did see a guy using it on steadicam though... :-) Of course, this might mean absolutely nothing to you if you don't even need to shoot handheld. But it was a consideration for me.

As far as lenses go... Yeah, you're in a tough spot. I only own one MFT lens and rest are all legacy lenses so that wouldn't be as much of an issue for me. So the obvious choice is to get the BMCC MFT but obviously this isn't really an option at the moment. I guess renting PL is the way to go but sheesh, talk about expensive. It's obviously cheaper to rent Nikon glass.

@ Andy: do you ever shoot hand held with RED one?

So I just priced one out on RED.com:
Camera $4000 (comes with SSD module but no media)
REDMAG 1.8” SSD 64GB $725
RED STATION REDMAG 1.8" (MINI) – ESATA $195
RED POWER PACK (2 batteries and a charger $1,450
RED QUICK PLATE (battery mount) $500

Total $6,870.00

I left off any kind of LCD viewer because you can get an HDMI one for a lot cheaper. You can probably find a third party battery solution for cheaper as well. And really, most of this stuff could be had second hand on ebay for a lot less....

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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1352224152' post='21169']
yup [url="http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/Files/SI%20Price%20List%20May%202007.pdf.old"]http://www.siliconim...ay 2007.pdf.old[/url]
at least in 2007... wonder how much they cost now
looked around but could not find any website selling them
[/quote]

[url="http://philipbloom.net/forum/threads/si-2k-camera.1202/"]http://philipbloom.net/forum/threads/si-2k-camera.1202/[/url]
In this thread there's a guy that owns (or owned) an SI-2K and named that same price, but also said he saw the older models being sold a $4000 on eBay. I can't find any being sold right now.
Anyway, I was just curious.
I want the BMCC, really, though we have to wait, and I wanted to mention: if it had Cineform RAW as a recording format it would indeed be GREAT.

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yes galenb this is the minimum config I came up with not sure if I forgot something
But the rig is missing 6'360usd:

[url="http://www.freeimagehosting.net/4l9jl"][img]http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/4l9jl.jpg[/img][/url]

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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1352225357' post='21175']
yes galenb this is the minimum config I came up with not sure if I forgot something
But the rig is missing 6'360usd:

[url="http://www.freeimagehosting.net/4l9jl"][img]http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/4l9jl.jpg[/img][/url]
[/quote]

You also need a quality lens adapter unless you have a bunch of $10K PL lenses sitting around, right?

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[quote name='HurtinMinorKey' timestamp='1352225810' post='21176']
You also need a quality lens adapter unless you have a bunch of $10K PL lenses sitting around, right?
[/quote]

I called a local rental store they have all of the zeiss cp primes for 80usd a day.
If you take them for a week they only charge you 4 days.
The nikon mount is 500usd and I do not own a single nikon lens.
So seems best to me to rent the zeiss pl instead of buying the mount and renting nikon lenses.

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It's funny, digital bolex, ikonoskop and SI-2K are all super16 sized sensors. So, mostly C-mount. That's about the only way to use your MFT lenses at this point. All the other sensors are to large for the mft mount. ;-)

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