67 replies to this topic

[Kingswell]

Andrew-How comes you're getting CVP's first unit when you're number 7 on the list?

[Kingswell]

That message reads a little accusingly. Not accusing you of anything Andrew but you state you're number 7 on the list and yet get CVP's 1st shipment.

[Simco123]

Very fishy indeed.

[EOSHD]

Nothing fishy at all as it turns out. When they called, they explained that I was number 1 on the list in terms of time of order. A glitch at the checkout meant the order wasn't fully secured and deposit paid until a bit later.

Of course if anyone is resentful of me getting the camera, feel free to seek your coverage and Blackmagic book elsewhere.

[Simco123]

Nothing fishy at all as it turns out. When they called, they explained that I was number 1 on the list in terms of time of order. A glitch at the checkout meant the order wasn't fully secured and deposit paid until a bit later.

Of course if anyone is resentful of me getting the camera, feel free to seek your coverage and Blackmagic book elsewhere.

From what CVP is saying it was not a glitch but they have an alternate list to go by.
When did you find out you were number 1?

At least one person who pre-ordered from CVP was told his position went up and down despite people switching to MFT. He was finally told today that he is lot further up the list after they were brought under the radar of transparency. Just shows you cant take resellers word for it and certainly not CVP.

[galenb]

Well, I think it's to our benefit that Andrew gets his camera early. Also, from a marketing stand point, you want the first units going out to be in the hands of reviewers and people of influence who will talk about it. That way, regardless of whether of not the press is good or bad, it's still free press and it gets people thinking and talking about it too. That already happened to some extent but then they couldn't follow those reviews up with actual product, so in a sense, they kind of have to start the marketing process all over again. BlackMagic have lost a lot of momentum because of the delay and they need to get the Cinema Camera back out there in the wild to help drum up some sales. Giving it over to a bunch of people who are just going to horde it and not let anyone else touch it, isn't going to help them out as much. ;-)

Also, this is very good new as it shows that BlackMagic are finally starting to ship out units!

[Simco123]

Well, I think it's to our benefit that Andrew gets his camera early.

No. It is to my benefit that I get my camera early. Does'nt benefit me at all if someone else bar myself gets the camera.

[HurtinMinorKey]

No. It is to my benefit that I get my camera early. Does'nt benefit me at all if someone else bar myself gets the camera.

I agree with you. But I also think it's okay to think Andrew earned the right to move up the list.

[Kingswell]

In what way did he 'earn the right' to move up? The story is that he was always first but CVP were too incompetent to keep a simple pre-order list and said he was seventh. I'm sure the person who thought they were first for the last several months isn't best pleased and i'm sure the people who were told they were 2nd, 3rd,4th,5th and 6th respectively will or should be asking serious questions of CVP. I do find the explanation plausible but if they've just jumped Andrew up the list because he has a blog, albeit a very good blog, then they should face some very serious scrutiny.

[Simco123]

I agree with you. But I also think it's okay to think Andrew earned the right to move up the list.

In what way does someone earned the right to move up the list?
Everyone should be treated the same, just because someone blogs a lot does NOT mean they earned more right to move up the list.

[markm]

Kingswell First this is really nothing to do with Andrew and second although you and myself too wouldnt like it CVP can do what they like with their own stock. If they decide to earmark certain priorities like Andrew whose blog will reach thousands of potential customers then that is a business decision for them and maybe even Black Magic who may or may not have asked them to deliver a camera to Andrew or popular bloggers as a priority. Business wants to make money as much as it can. We want great cheap cameras. I would be upset if it was potentially queue jumping but its like the theatre manager coming out and taking someone from the queue and so not queue jumping at all.

We will never know the truth if we cant accept what Andrew and CVP have said therefore sour grapes are futile in my opinion.

[HurtinMinorKey]

Kingswell First this is really nothing to do with Andrew and second although you and myself too wouldnt like it CVP can do what they like with their own stock. If they decide to earmark certain priorities like Andrew whose blog will reach thousands of potential customers then that is a business decision for them and maybe even Black Magic who may or may not have asked them to deliver a camera to Andrew or popular bloggers as a priority.

Bingo.

[EOSHD]

I think it is disgusting you are turning this into an anti-CVP / anti-EOSHD rant Simco123. You don't have any evidence for your accusations either. Consider yourself banned from this forum. You earned it.

[Kingswell]

Kingswell First this is really nothing to do with Andrew and second although you and myself too wouldnt like it CVP can do what they like with their own stock. If they decide to earmark certain priorities like Andrew whose blog will reach thousands of potential customers then that is a business decision for them and maybe even Black Magic who may or may not have asked them to deliver a camera to Andrew or popular bloggers as a priority. Business wants to make money as much as it can. We want great cheap cameras. I would be upset if it was potentially queue jumping but its like the theatre manager coming out and taking someone from the queue and so not queue jumping at all.

We will never know the truth if we cant accept what Andrew and CVP have said therefore sour grapes are futile in my opinion.

Run a business like that and you're going to go out of business. I also disagree they can do whatever they like with stock. There will be many strings attached in their contract with BMD. Break em and they don't get anymore BMD stock.

Blackmagic already did their publicity boost with the very public 'beta' testers. I struggle to even recognise it as a beta test. They specifically picked out prominent bloggers like Philip Bloom and Vincent Laforet for PR. They don't need anymore business-they can't even supply 1% of demand they already have!

Lastly I find it alarming that people are saying that its ok to boost people up pre-order lists. There is such a thing as ethics and conducting business in a good moral sense.

[Kingswell]

Also if BMD wanted to give Andrew a camera, which they maybe should have done when 'beta' testing, they wouldn't go through CVP. to do it.

[kitchentable]

I haven't heard from CVP since the 15th. August email.

Mind you, other than telling me what they got up to on their holidays I don't think there's been that much to definitively update me on.

I have no idea where I am on their list and until they are getting them through in even remotely sensible quantities its a bit moot unless you are in the first 5.

They do seem to have been drawn into having to address your specific order issue on the Blackmagic forum though Andrew !

http://forum.blackma...1288&start=1010

I think a few people on there need to relax and accept its only a camera.

[markm]

Run a business like that and you're going to go out of business. I also disagree they can do whatever they like with stock. There will be many strings attached in their contract with BMD. Break em and they don't get anymore BMD stock.

Blackmagic already did their publicity boost with the very public 'beta' testers. I struggle to even recognise it as a beta test. They specifically picked out prominent bloggers like Philip Bloom and Vincent Laforet for PR. They don't need anymore business-they can't even supply 1% of demand they already have!

Lastly I find it alarming that people are saying that its ok to boost people up pre-order lists. There is such a thing as ethics and conducting business in a good moral sense.

First and foremost is that you don't know whether Andrew went up the list you are just suspicious. The argument ends there.

However for fun and to broaden it further re business ethics and nothing to do with the argument on this thread. I would suggest there arent very many ethics in business and nowadays companies built on a good name are hard to find. Most look for strategies to get your hard earned money and some are quite ruthless Sony Panasonic and Canon will all drip feed you products at whatever price they feel they can get. Look at the GH2 and how hackers have unlocked its deliberately locked potential. In every walk of life today from politicians to bankers its become make as much as you can with no regard for others. That is why business and capitilism must be ruled by good laws and incorruptable rule makers However in recent times governments are being paid by big business Americam politics and its political leaders are habitual; offenders These are the people who send men to their deaths in far off countries and in the UK sell out its people.

I agree though businesses should think more about customers and their good name However the reality is for all those in power and in business Money is king. For those who are more public orientated I would do my best to encourage and so far Black Magic have been very good. As for CVP they try to outdo the competition and keep prices high in my opinion.They are out to make money.

What would you do though if it was your business Would you try to get as much as you can and do what was neccesary? I know I would be no good in business as I'm not ruthless enough to survive.

I think its time to stop nit picking on Andrew and take his and CVP's word all is above board anyway.

[tomto]

Run a business like that and you're going to go out of business. I also disagree they can do whatever they like with stock. There will be many strings attached in their contract with BMD. Break em and they don't get anymore BMD stock.

Blackmagic already did their publicity boost with the very public 'beta' testers. I struggle to even recognise it as a beta test. They specifically picked out prominent bloggers like Philip Bloom and Vincent Laforet for PR. They don't need anymore business-they can't even supply 1% of demand they already have!

Lastly I find it alarming that people are saying that its ok to boost people up pre-order lists. There is such a thing as ethics and conducting business in a good moral sense.

Agree!
It is common business practice and also within legal requirement that all customers who bought from a stockist are protected by the law of the land.
In the UK every traders including the likes of CVP has to comply with the requirement of the Trading Standard when they acquire a trading license from their local authority. The Provision of Goods and Services Act stipulates that all licensed traders treat customers fairly and without preferrential treatment. Some of the the argument posted saying CVP can do as they please by allowing certain customers to jump the queu would have breached the law which can result in a fine or removal of trading license. CVP knows this and would not contemplate to be seen as doing this because they know the legal implication. Whether they did in this case and allow Andrew to jump the queu is unknown without hard evidence but given what CVP had told him and all their customers were they were on their list and suddenly reveal their first client completely different from their 6 months old list when a camera finally shipped certainly raise questions about the company's integrity and quite possibly put them in a public relation dilemma. Who ever it was who was told he was 1st to 6th on the list I think is well within their legal right should they bring the matter to court against CVP. Everything from lost of business as a result of not recieving their camera when the stockist had it in stock but was allegedly overlooked in favour of someone further down the list would be taken into account.
Even if they cannot prove a company in question had falsefied information to move someone up a pre-order list a UK court could rule that the stockist mislead customers by giving erroneous information for months causing breakdown of trust and hurt feelings resulting in a fine and cover of all court cost by the company. The Trading Standard will also recieve a report of a court ruling and may issue their own penalty which varies from a fine, suspension of trading license over a period or worse banning the company from trading, the latter more serious but unlikely in this case.


The idea of allowing beta testers chosen by the manufacturer to test their cameras, in this case BMD with Bloom and Laforet is within legal requirement because it is a arrangement between manufacturer and professional.

[markm]

Tomto that sounds ridiculous Queue jumping is a moral issue and not a legal one.As for treating customers fairly that is in regard to goods supplied and as it stands those in the queue have an option to cancel and fully aware a delivery time cannot be predicted or guaranteed.

Even if CVP were to treat the customer unfairly in the normal sense and for what the laws were designed for. IE Overcharging. A faulty item that needs replacement Not returning a deposit etc then the best you can expect from trading standards is your money back.

As for a claim for loss of earnings that is ridiculous. The Cameras are clearly on a deposit system precisely because delivry cannot be predicted. Your main argument is queue jumping and your re defining of it. Good luck with that one.

[Kingswell]

markm- I was suspicious because of all the other crap done by resellers in relation to the BMC in recent weeks. There's a guy called Kholi on BMCuser who had been told he was first with Markertek for the last few months only to be told recently that wasn't the case-similar situation to CVP. Then there's the authorised reseller who tried to sell a BMC on ebay for $6k (double the RRP) when they had pre-orders outstanding. Also on face value it did look like Andrew had been given favourable service by CVP, before CVP explained what had happened.

As for the law-you might not be protected by statutory laws and bodies but you can still follow up your legal rights in a civl court (i.e suing). When you enter into a contract with a business or individual there is an expectation (in the law) that both individuals conduct the contract in good faith. Quite an abstract term (there's alot of those in the law) but the jist of it is that you don't try to cheat people. Changing the date of delivery or expectation of delivery in favor of someone else could be construed as acting in bad faith and therefore a breach of contract.

Anyway i'll leave it there. There is no conspiracy as far as i can see, Andrew wouldn't be tweeting all over CVP's twitter account if there were. However i do think its right to question things that don't appear right, and not just turn a blind eye.