Emanuel Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 21 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said: If we could go back to the "user-friendly" conversation for a moment... (...) Am I missing something here? (...) I think you summed it up when progress means anything you can take advantage from, without losing the "north". : ) 12 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said: Thanks, everyone. These are both impressive cameras so I think it comes down more to use case than what's objectively better for everyone. The P4K seems a little more niche, but it might be my niche. Maybe I'll buy one and try it out. If I do end up with a P4K what NDs do you recommend? I have had very bad experiences with IR pollution on the 4.6K. Variable ND you'll find several options Internet is plenty of reviews such as those from Tom Antos on IR pollution with Tiffen or Cavision filters. When OLP filter is not in-camera as it is not non-rarely adopted by BMD for their acquisition devices. That is, a non-variable solution, in this case just for the sake of it. Or on the other hand, here's some other Tiffen on a variable option if you want to run away from the square route, usually recommended by Shane Hurlbut and by myself too BTW. - EAG shooter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 PS: Just to avoid any misreading of my quoting and again because 5 minutes is still short to edit it : ) I think you @Mark Romero 2 fairly summed it up on the leftover of your post above-mentioned from your own experience, which should always rule what fits best our needs :- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Have both BMPCC 4K and Panasonic S1/S5. For me both are great cameras for video/cinema. Historically bought BMPCC 4K first 2-3 years ago and resisted buying Panasonic S5/S1 mainly because want to shoot in RAW. Image quality has the highest priority for me when choosing a camera. Panasonic cameras initially didn't have RAW video recording capability. Recently Panasonic added ProRes RAW and BRAW as external recording options. RAW video plus very good prices second hand tipped the scales for me. Didn't test them extensively side by side. From the limited tests that did can say both BMPCC 4K and Panasonic S1/S5 for me have excellent image quality in BRAW. 10bit 4:2:2 h264 internal from Panasonic is probably a notch down but very close. 10bit internal is now OK for me to use in some projects. Initially that was not the case. My plan was to use only BRAW external from Panasonic. When first reviews of Panasonic S1H started to appear, downloaded several clips in 10bit 4:2:2 V-Log and graded them. Was looking mostly for skin colors. Was not satisfied, they didn't look as good and as easy to grade as BMPCC 4K BRAW. Log picture profile that both have is like negative. Until we develop the negative, color correct/grade it in post, it is not possible to talk about color. What kind of color you get in the end is more skills in color correction / grading then camera color science. Agree with Kye on this. As said, I downloaded several clips shot with Panasonic S1/S5/S1H series of cameras internally in V-Log 10bit 4:2:2. Color corrected them in Davinci. Some shots and more specifically skin tones didn't look as good as they look on BMPCC 4K. It is all subjective we have to admit this, but that was my impression and assessment. For both cameras - BMPCC 4K and Panasonic S1/S1H/S5 used the same method (Color Space Transform) to convert from Log profile and their respective color spaces to REC 709. Since both BRAW and Davinci Resolve are Blackmagic products, getting great colors with simple CST is easy with BMPCC 4K. This method however does not gives always satisfying result and colors for Panasonic internal 10bit V-Log. So I tried Panasonic V-Log to REC 709 conversion LUT and 3rd parties Color Space Conversion LUTs (55Media). They gave me better results and better starting point. Adding some simple corrections, contrast, saturation, balancing exposure etc. after the conversion LUT now gives me better colors and skin tones. There are some test footage from both cameras on interenet. This one has downloadable source BRAW (BMPCC 4K) and MP4 (Panasonic S1H) files. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Al-tIFXFuY Among the sample footage there is one clip for checking skin tones. Lighting is quite challenging and constantly changing and shots are in different time, he shot with one camera then the other. Still it is a good exercise to try. When I tried it first almost a year ago with CST used for both cameras, didn't like the colors from Panasonic. Doing it now with conversion LUTs get better colors from Panasonic and can match closely both cameras. More examples and tests here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rghbaHoVRsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2ZkRaPWjY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU4eydFl1hM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJawO5eeWr8 While I agree with Kye that getting good colors is mostly skills in editing program of your choice, don't think that getting a good starting point, correct colors or pleasing colors is that difficult. Usually use 4-5 nodes maximum for this task. It takes a lot of time and skills to build a certain look, to finesse every take, emphasize some lighting etc. This requires a lot of knowledge and practice. But basic color grading/correction should not be that difficult. With Panasonic 10bit 4:2:2 V-log internal you have to try different methods, correction LUTS, etc. It may take some additional efforts and time. Once you have the new workflow, it will be easy to apply it and it will be more or less consistent so at the end you get colors you like. I usually stop at this point and do not go for a specific look like teal / orange etc. One day maybe but for the moment it is OK. A good example of what am saying is Zeek. His videos shot on EOS M + ML RAW for the last 2 years have consistent and great colors. Yet his color correction / grading workflow in Resolve is very simple. The difference and reason why we are saying we like colors from camera brand A better that Camera brand B is mainly because our workflow to develop colors from Log profile and camera color space to REC 709 is giving us colors we like. Once we change workflow or color correction/grading is adjusted for camera B that we didn’t like, problem is solved. We can again get colors we like. Am not saying those are correct colors. About LUTs mimicking Alexa. Of course, they are not 100% close and in some lighting condition may be off. It would be important only if you try to match Alexa footage with BMPCC 4K in one video for example. When we talk Alexa colors again we confront the problem how did we get those colors. Even if we download conversion LUTs from ARRI website (which I did), there are different LUTs for different Arri Camera models and color space transforms. Depending which one you use you get slightly different colors. So what are after all Alexa colors? For me those LUTs simply are good starting point, a reference. That's it. Advantages and disadvantages of BMPCC 4K over Panasonic S1/S5/S1H is another topic. You have to try both in order to make the best decision for you. As said many times - it is personal; everybody should try himself or herself. For me Panasonic S1/S5/S1H have few advantages, so tend to use Pana S5/S1 more. HockeyFan12, austinchimp and Mark Romero 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Much valuable post, interesting and entertaining informative stuff on topic, thank you for sharing Stefan, cheers to you as usual :- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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