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Andrew Reid

The downfall of the big guys just began - BlackMagic 2.5K Cinema Camera with 12bit RAW for $3000

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Really, really exciting. They got so many awesome things right - elegant simple design, usable codecs, RAW!, 2.5k is far more appealing to me than 4k (room to crop vs. resolution for delivery format I'll never need).

That said, I'm sure most of us would need to supplement this first generation version with a DSLR as a b-cam. Heavy crop factor + unlikely low-light prowess + poor battery life = very specific shooting conditions.

Still, what a difference a few months make. If the image is as pretty as the spec sheet, I'd rather shoot a narrative with one of these babies and a low-light superhero (Mk III or FS100) than I would with just a Scarlet or C300 (at half the price too!)

@halfmac - 5 inch screen with peaking is still a fairly capable monitoring solution. I'd take that over the simplicity of HDMI at any point. You're dead on about the battery though, I'm happy it brings a wall power unit for studio situations but it really does limit things substantially.

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I guess this means Red now has a [i]Black[/i] eye for failing to deliver on the $3K for 3K Scarlet it originally promised.

Now Black Magic is positioned to scale up their fine little camera to S35 any time they choose for almost no increase in tooling costs and with a workflow that will have been fully established and mostly debugged.  A RAW cam with S35 sensor at $3-$5K should give Red something to pause at, even without the 4K, 6K or whatever rez they're pimping these days.  I like Red a lot for their disruption of the industry and creative vision, but they too are guilty of abandoning the Indie guys in this segment and will lose more than a few who will now decide not to take out a second mortgage in an attempt to experience RAW workflows.

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[quote author=miseducation link=topic=596.msg4047#msg4047 date=1334609572]
That said, I'm sure most of us would need to supplement this first generation version with a DSLR as a b-cam. Heavy crop factor + unlikely low-light prowess + poor battery life = very specific shooting conditions.
[/quote]

Repeat, the revolution will come the day they will have this approach : "hey, let's make a 35mm sensor...ok, 4:4:4 color workflow, with various lenses mounts to be used with every dirt cheap lens, different battery options and it must work fine at 3200 iso and finally LET'S TASTE EVERY FRAME on a cinema screen"

And I'm pretty sure they can make something cheaper than 3000

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[quote author=garypayton link=topic=596.msg4037#msg4037 date=1334606937]
The Revolution will be when somebody comes out with a camera TESTED on CINEMA SCREEN, a camera made for cinema that can also be used for more simple things, not the opposite.  We need a camera with plenty of options for lenses at their maximum capability, no workflow imposition (DAVINCI?!!??!?!?!?!?). It's a good step, but we need MORE.
[/quote]

Not sure if you understand the files this BlackMagic Cinema cam produces.

The Cinema DNG files can be edited in EVERY major editing suite in the world.  And you have the option of Apple ProRes and Avid DNX.

I have used Cinema DNG files from an Ikonoskop I rented and they are AWESOME.  You can even open them in Lightroom 4 and pull screen grabs as if they were a RAW DSLR file and play with shadows/highlights white balance.

This is THE BEST option imo for files produced from a cinema camera.

And as far as holding up on a big screen - there are TONS of 16mm type films that have done very well on the big screen - Slumdog Millionaire / Black Swan etc.

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[quote author=Sara link=topic=596.msg4050#msg4050 date=1334610573]
And as far as holding up on a big screen - there are TONS of 16mm type films that have done very well on the big screen - Slumdog Millionaire / Black Swan etc.
[/quote]

+1 Also... Avatar, Starwars II&III, Once Upon a Time in Mexico, Sin City, ect. Digital s16mm or 2/3" is not bad at all. And this is right in between that and m4/3... should be a pretty nice format.

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[quote author=garypayton link=topic=596.msg4049#msg4049 date=1334610050]

Repeat, the revolution will come the day they will have this approach : "hey, let's make a 35mm sensor...ok, 4:4:4 color workflow, with various lenses mounts to be used with every dirt cheap lens, different battery options and it must work fine at 3200 iso and finally LET'S TASTE EVERY FRAME on a cinema screen"

And I'm pretty sure they can make something cheaper than 3000
[/quote]

@garypayton that's exactly the wrong attitude to have about this. I want more and I want it cheaper. If they could've given you more for cheaper, they would have.

Blackmagic have (hopefully) democratized latitude-rich, RAW, 12-bit images in one fell swoop. It isn't the answer to all of our low-budget dreams but it should certainly allow the clever and the skilled the opportunity to make images they never before could afford. That is to be applauded in its own right, not shouted back at with a list of demands.

There's nothing wrong with being mad at a manufacturer when you feel they've purposely held something back (hence the anti-Canon bent of the past few months). Based on the stat sheet alone, its disingenuous to say that Blackmagic have held back on either features or price point.

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If mine is a wrong attitude then what's this? LOL

[quote author=miseducation link=topic=596.msg4052#msg4052 date=1334611367]
If they could've given you more for cheaper, they would have.
[/quote]

Maybe you don't get me. I'm excited just as you are and I'm buying one of these!

I'm just hoping one day we will have the complete camera with no dropdowns (90 min battery is already a problem, crop sensor too for all the people that use full frame dslr, and STILL we are forgetting the REAL DEAL, how this camera will work in low light, that's where the game is played), you may say I'm a dreamer...but .....i think it's possible to have the perfect, working class cam

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i dont know how people can complain about price ...
only software package is 1600$...
what makes this camera worth about 1400$ ...
+ no need for external recorder ...
Jesus big companies charge for  firmware  and slog (more than BMD camera price)...
c'mon people dont be greedy

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Unbelievably some are disapointed about the sensor size.

This gives you potentially just enough bokeh to make the camera hit the bullseye on everything. Okay it has no ND filters but then neither do most high end pro cameras and this spec is right up there with them.

It's just well PERFECT!

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Not a bad day in the world of HD: first, perhaps a little later than some might have hoped, RED flesh out details for 6k+ then, looking to fill a gap in the market this site has been making a big deal of lately [coincidence..?], we have BMD's new camera.

I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Blackmagic and I'll be very interested to see how this develops - it certainly has great potential...

Now, out of curiosity, can someone point me in the direction of a 12-bit, 2.5k reference monitor that doesn't cost more than the camera? ;)

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[quote author=Teddy B. link=topic=596.msg4058#msg4058 date=1334614163]
Now, out of curiosity, can someone point me in the direction of a 12-bit, 2.5k reference monitor that doesn't cost more than the camera? ;)
[/quote]

Not that it counts as much of a reference monitor but the Apple Cinema Display 27 inch (and by extension the iMac and I think most of the other 27 inch monitors on the market) have a resolution pretty close to 2.5k.

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[quote author=garypayton link=topic=596.msg4049#msg4049 date=1334610050]

Repeat, the revolution will come the day they will have this approach : "hey, let's make a 35mm sensor...ok, 4:4:4 color workflow, with various lenses mounts to be used with every dirt cheap lens, different battery options and it must work fine at 3200 iso and finally LET'S TASTE EVERY FRAME on a cinema screen"

And I'm pretty sure they can make something cheaper than 3000
[/quote]

Aahhhaa good one. I'd love to have some of what you've been smokin' lately. Hey you never know unless you ask for it, hey !!??

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[quote author=mxtp link=topic=596.msg4032#msg4032 date=1334604941]
So this would result in about x2.3 crop factor with EOS glass? Maybe someone could answer this for me. Is there any technical reason why a micro4/3 lens to EOS mount would not work... Thus allowing the Voigtlander 25mm f/0.95 or Voigtlander 17.5mm f/0.95 to work on the Blackmagic Cinema Camera? Just wondering.
[/quote]

the flange distance is to far on a EOS mount. There is to much distance between the back of the lens and the sensor for a micro 4/3 lens to focus properly. to focus to infinity the lens needs to be the proper distance from the focal plane.

Eos mount is a very unusual choice if that's the only mount it comes with, You would only be able to adapt it to Nikon and M42 everything else won't focus properly.

I can see some problems getting proper wide angles, hopefully it works properly with EF-S lens as well.

"This is just a picture making box. Like Apple, BlackMagic seems to get that adding simplicity rather than complexity makes for a better product."

::) My eyes just rolled so hard they almost fell out of my head, really sucks that this device seems only properly compatible with Mac, why would you buy a low cost camera if you were editting on a needlessly expensive platform, you can get way more editting bang for the buck with a windows setup.  This seems more like a hipster camera.

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I´m mostly a Post-production guy doing 2D/3D animation and video composting, i been using the Nex 5n for small projects and i love it, but this is for me a dream camera, i don´t care too much for the form (is like a Nex 5n on steroids), but in studio production for green screen the 12bit Raw at 2.5k is invaluable, is in no way a run & gun camera, is like the old days of filming, every scene must be planned. By the footage i see no moire or heavy aliasing, this is a very good thing, i see a little shake vibration on some of the scenes, and in other i see something like EF stabilization system working (have high hope on this one).

The only negative (if could be called like that) is the small sensor against the S35 or the ASPC, so, for wide shots is a kind of pain in the arse.

What could be added:
-HMDI for external monitoring (Zacuto EVF, SmallHD 4")
-Buttons for faster access of the primary functions, as iso, shutter, aperture, etc.. (nex 7)
-XLR audio inputs

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[quote author=bradleyg5 link=topic=596.msg4061#msg4061 date=1334615297]

Eos mount is a very unusual choice if that's the only mount it comes with, You would only be able to adapt it to Nikon and M42 everything else won't focus properly.

I can see some problems getting proper wide angles, hopefully it works properly with EF-S lens as well.

[/quote]

Well, thank God i'm not the only one who's not blown away by the price and the Raw format thing  and that's already seeing some serious issues on this camera.

And let's not forget. IT'S A CROP SENSOR! It's not a full frame!

still is a great news! don't misunderstand me!

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how many movies are made in full frame (vista vision)...
much much less than 16mm ...
and what  is about FF DOF fetish  ...
i dont need to focus only pimple on the tip of the nose ...
Kubrick made most of his film in 21mm academy format ....

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