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GH5 focus excellence

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1 hour ago, Ken Ross said:

I never accused any reviewers of purposely trashing the GH5 and never even mentioned anything about viewership or hits on their websites. I have no idea why some of us owners have discovered the effectiveness of 1-area (it didn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out) and these reviewers have not. Now Panasonic has come out and agreed with us. So clearly we were correct and some of the reviewers missed it. Jon, if you or anyone can come up with a logical explanation for the oversight of these reviewers, I'm all ears.

I have been nothing but honest with this community. I've posted examples of my tests and posted additional tests at the request of members here. If that honesty and those efforts aren't appreciated, then I'm simply wasting my time and everyone else's.

I appreciate your contributions, I wasn't directing my comment at you. I don't recall you ever saying reviewers purposely reported poor AF results just in order to increase viewership. Max did however spend some 25 hours testing, and 1/2 dozen or more others whose reviews I respect also came to similar conclusions. Even Photo Joseph, a Panasonic luminary, could not get consistent results. Joseph and Max both seemed to agree that AF-C performed better at 60p with an external recorder, but I shoot 24p and have no desire to purchase an external recorder - a monitor though, for sure! ūüôā¬†And I find it baffling that the Vario 12-35mm f/2.8 v.1¬†performed better in their tests than v.2. I don't own the camera, I'm not taking sides, I really wish they would move on already.¬†

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10 hours ago, Ken Ross said:

But let's also be very honest Mattias, what drives me nuts are the myriad of videos, including Max's original, that left the clear implication that virtually nothing worked. If you're the least bit objective about this, you can't deny that.

Even in the last joint video, they kept using face detection. How many times do you need to try face detection to know it doesn't work in its current incarnation. They did the simulated wedding thing and focused on hands with face detection. It didn't work...I would never have guessed that. Central area? Nope, he didn't use it or if he did, I missed it.

Here is where you loose me. The face detection is obviously broken. It is not working as it should. The camera tracks the face but doesn't adjust the focus.

I believe this is fixable. 

So if you ask me, every reviewer out there should use it. Again and again. To put heat on Panasonic so they fix it.

(Btw, center area is where the subject wont be for 70-90% of all shots. Thats probably the reason why people don't want to settle for it.)

8 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

Because if they find something that works....bang....end of controversy, and then they have to go through finding the next thing to go on about...because that's how they make their money....

They would make way more money if they only talked about the good things. Max's money comes from camera sales...

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Reviewers want to get right under the hood of whatever it is they are reviewing. The Panasonic focusing settings appear to be the most complex set of parameters outside of NASA high command, with different settings working with different lenses (according to PhotoJoseph) in different scenarios - and even then only working some of the time depending on whether or not Mercury has attained its greatest elongation from the Sun.

Ken, on the other hand, has quickly found out that there are no problems whatsoever when using 1-area. Everything else is irrelevant to him because he gets the shot he requires in focus every time using this simple method. This is the method that I use on my Panasonic cameras and also on my Sony cameras (when not manually focusing). I have enough problems with aliens and burnt palms to be worrying about focusing on a plant pot when I should be focusing on the bride.

For Ken, autofocus works great.

For Max, autofocus needs a lot of working out to get the best results.

For PhotoJoseph - he should consider himself lucky that he is still a Panasonic Luminary.

For Sony a6500 fanboys - they are too busy laughing.

And that's about it. Everything else is an overlapping of those four points above. Keeping those four points above separate will give us all more time to go out and use whatever cameras we own, and that being said, I am off out to buy some cheap offcuts from the butchers so that I can film a fox that comes to my garden in the small hours.

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7 hours ago, jonpais said:

I appreciate your contributions, I wasn't directing my comment at you. I don't recall you ever saying reviewers purposely reported poor AF results just in order to increase viewership. Max did however spend some 25 hours testing, and 1/2 dozen or more others whose reviews I respect also came to similar conclusions. Even Photo Joseph, a Panasonic luminary, could not get consistent results. Joseph and Max both seemed to agree that AF-C performed better at 60p with an external recorder, but I shoot 24p and have no desire to purchase an external recorder - a monitor though, for sure! ūüôā¬†And I find it baffling that the Vario 12-35mm f/2.8 v.1¬†performed better in their tests than v.2. I don't own the camera, I'm not taking sides, I really wish they would move on already.¬†

Jon, thank you, I'm glad you clarified that. Just to avoid confusion on the AF subject, we're actually talking about two different areas of potential improvement. First, AF is improved in transitioning from 24p to 60p, with or without an external recorder. So for those that do shoot 60p, the AF will be improved, no need for an external recorder. 

Second, yes, AF will again improve going from internal to external recording. That came as a surprise to me, even though for me it's irrelevant since I have no intention of adding bulk and additional expense with an external recorder. I'm fine recording internally. I agree it's strange that v1 of the 12-35 performed better than v2. 

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5 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

They would make way more money if they only talked about the good things. Max's money comes from camera sales...

You are right!.... I am frustrated by this and lashed out in a way I had no business doing!...however....that's no excuse...

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5 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Here is where you loose me. The face detection is obviously broken. It is not working as it should. The camera tracks the face but doesn't adjust the focus.

I believe this is fixable. 

So if you ask me, every reviewer out there should use it. Again and again. To put heat on Panasonic so they fix it.

(Btw, center area is where the subject wont be for 70-90% of all shots. Thats probably the reason why people don't want to settle for it.)

They would make way more money if they only talked about the good things. Max's money comes from camera sales...

First, you're right, face detection is broken, I never disagreed with that. That's why I don't use it and advise against it. It's broken on the G85 too. Both cameras track the face perfectly, right down to the eyes, but focus is unpredictable. It would seem a firmware update should be possible, sine I'd think that good tracking is the harder part of the equation to get right. However, for shooting something like a wedding, it's also important to note the camera doesn't recognize a face until the subject is about 15' from the camera (don't hold me to that since I haven't actually measured it). So even if focus were perfect, users should be aware of the distance limitation.

I also agree that every reviewer should test it, show it doesn't work and report that to Panasonic. But don't you think they should also state that some aspects of AF work fine and are quite usable as the camera currently exists? Don't you think these same reviewers should remind people that something as basic as AF lock works perfectly as does 1-area, and could be extremely effective depending on your subject and DOF? Don't you think a fair & balanced presentation is the most effective one and the one that has the most value to the reader? As thorough as some of these reviews are, they're not thorough enough if they leave out these important points. Not in my book. 

Where I totally disagree with you is that 70-80% of all shots are outside of the center area. Do you know the size of the center area? This is not a tiny spot focus. Do you know, if necessary, that area is movable and just as effective when moved? Did you watch that wedding procession test video with the boy? He was not always in the center, yet remained in focus. 

Things will only improve as Panasonic has pledged to improve the AF as they should. So I'm simply saying the AF is usable right now and people should be aware of both that and it's foibles. God knows with all the attention on the AF, most are aware of the foibles. However I'd bet most are not aware that you can currently work around it. I won't even discuss MF and how easy it is on the GH5, nobody seems to care about that either. ;)

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At the launch, Panasonic representatives boasted about the new improved AF, and because it wasn't very reliable on the GH4, many were hoping for considerably better performance, though they already knew that CDAF was never going to compete with PDAF. So if so much attention has been focused on AF, I think part of the blame must fall on Panasonic's shoulders in the first place.

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Right. But to my view, Max and Joseph both have failed for unscientific tests despite their claims. Very incomplete testing. Disappointing to see. A lot of grapefruit, a little grape. All of that because of YT views... Phew.

 

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11 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Right. But to my view, Max and Joseph both have failed for unscientific tests depite their claims. Very incomplete testing.

Twenty-five hours of testing; using so many different settings; inviting a Panasonic luminary to join him; and Max tried out some of the suggestions offered by readers in the comments section of his first video. And I'm sure Joseph reached out to Panasonic for whatever advice they could give as well. In fact, like I said, I've watched dozens of tests by at least a dozen or more online reviewers, reviewers who each have their own methodology for testing, most of whom have experience with dozens if not hundreds of other cameras, and they all reached the same conclusion. You can fault Max all you like, but can you name a single other reviewer who has done such thorough and exhaustive testing? Remember, when Joseph came to work with Max, the two spent fifteen hours trying every possible setting. To be honest, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, since I have no vested interest in this whatsoever.

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35 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Twenty-five hours of testing; using so many different settings; inviting a Panasonic luminary to join him; and Max tried out some of the suggestions offered by readers in the comments section of his first video. And I'm sure Joseph reached out to Panasonic for whatever advice they could give as well. In fact, like I said, I've watched dozens of tests by at least a dozen or more online reviewers, reviewers who each have their own methodology for testing, most of whom have experience with dozens if not hundreds of other cameras. You can fault Max all you like, but can you name a single other reviewer who has done such thorough and exhaustive testing? Remember, when Joseph came to work with Max, the two spent fifteen hours trying every possible setting. To be honest, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, since I have no vested interest in this whatsoever.

I know it is your perspective, Jon : ) But, I was expecting much more from them. Maybe it is also the vlogging style which irritates me, maybe yes, maybe not : D I fairly concur that spending time of viewers to see people to pick up someone else to the airport, it is not my beach at all. As much as all that calling out stuff, who pays this or that. Shouldn't Panasonic be the ones to promote it after all? Their silence or empty statement on a par with a Lumix Luminary who has no clue about 4K on a6500 puzzles me even further.

As already written, I didn't see multiple lens setup testing, fair alternatives to eventual limitations of the system, the whole range of settings to be tested in distinct setups. To me, the fact they spent dozens of precious time for that result, reminds me that famous expression... a Pyrrhus victory.

I can even recall the tests you've conducted on your YT channel. You have no need for marketing gimmicks to give to your viewers some truly accurate information. Pretty helpful BTW : ) That would be the standard I'd like to find from their meeting.

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6 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

I know it is your perspective, Jon : ) But, I was expecting much more from them. Maybe it is also the vlogging style which irritates me, maybe yes, maybe not. I concur that spending time of viewers to see people to pick up someone else to the airport, it is not my beach at all. As much as all that calling out stuff, who pays this or that. Shouldn't Panasonic be the ones to promote it after all? Their silence or empty statement on a par with a Lumix Luminary who has no clue about 4K on a6500 puzzles me even further.

As already written, I didn't see multiple lens setup testing, fair alternatives to eventual limitations of the system, the whole range of settiings to be tested in distinct setups. To me, the fact they spent dozens of precious time for that result, reminds me that famous expression... a Pyrrhus victory.

I can even recall the tests you've conducted on your YT channel. You have no need for marketing gimmicks to give to your viewers some truly accurate information. Pretty helpful BTW : ) That would be the standard I'd like to find from their meeting.

I used to hate vloggers, and now I'm doing it myself. :) 

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6 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I used to hate vloggers, and now I'm doing it myself. :) 

LOL For some reason you've felt the need for ; ) I wish YT may raise the standards we've become used to. And vloggers are used to put up their views.

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7 hours ago, jonpais said:

At the launch, Panasonic representatives boasted about the new improved AF, and because it wasn't very reliable on the GH4, many were hoping for considerably better performance, though they already knew that CDAF was never going to compete with PDAF. So if so much attention has been focused on AF, I think part of the blame must fall on Panasonic's shoulders in the first place.

They did indeed. I would think that it was a reasonable expectation to assume they were speaking about the overall autofocusing capabilities of the GH5 and that that would include some of what we have seen to be complete failures.

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1 hour ago, Orangenz said:

Can some others try taking photos of the sky please? Never had problem trying to af on the sky before, all modes. 

I've struggled. But then I live under whispy chemtrails that don't have defining edges. That's with the Panasonic FZ200, incidentally.

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2 hours ago, Orangenz said:

Can some others try taking photos of the sky please? Never had problem trying to af on the sky before, all modes. 

Are you talking about a clear blue sky and only the sky? There would be no detail to grab on to. If you can be more specific I'll try. 

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3 hours ago, Ken Ross said:

Are you talking about a clear blue sky and only the sky? There would be no detail to grab on to. If you can be more specific I'll try. 

IMG_20170418_125028.thumb.jpg.e7e1a8a82f0a3f848b8e2bf66447a274.jpg

12mm works, 60mm doesn't work. I'm surprised as the phone and rx100 are instant and don't recall any problem with the GH4. It might be out of focus but it would still take a picture. This just does nothing.

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21 hours ago, Ken Ross said:

First, you're right, face detection is broken, I never disagreed with that. That's why I don't use it and advise against it. It's broken on the G85 too. Both cameras track the face perfectly, right down to the eyes, but focus is unpredictable. It would seem a firmware update should be possible, sine I'd think that good tracking is the harder part of the equation to get right. However, for shooting something like a wedding, it's also important to note the camera doesn't recognize a face until the subject is about 15' from the camera (don't hold me to that since I haven't actually measured it). So even if focus were perfect, users should be aware of the distance limitation.

I also agree that every reviewer should test it, show it doesn't work and report that to Panasonic. But don't you think they should also state that some aspects of AF work fine and are quite usable as the camera currently exists? Don't you think these same reviewers should remind people that something as basic as AF lock works perfectly as does 1-area, and could be extremely effective depending on your subject and DOF? Don't you think a fair & balanced presentation is the most effective one and the one that has the most value to the reader? As thorough as some of these reviews are, they're not thorough enough if they leave out these important points. Not in my book. 

Where I totally disagree with you is that 70-80% of all shots are outside of the center area. Do you know the size of the center area? This is not a tiny spot focus. Do you know, if necessary, that area is movable and just as effective when moved? Did you watch that wedding procession test video with the boy? He was not always in the center, yet remained in focus. 

Things will only improve as Panasonic has pledged to improve the AF as they should. So I'm simply saying the AF is usable right now and people should be aware of both that and it's foibles. God knows with all the attention on the AF, most are aware of the foibles. However I'd bet most are not aware that you can currently work around it. I won't even discuss MF and how easy it is on the GH5, nobody seems to care about that either. ;)

I'm more interested in how easy it is to use MF. How do you find the lcd and evf for critical focus in run and gun situations?

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2 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I'm more interested in how easy it is to use MF. How do you find the lcd and evf for critical focus in run and gun situations?

As a user of reading glasses, I never find an LCD screen effective. The GH5 is no different, but that's me. Add the additional issue of bright sunlight (and the GH5 does have a very bright screen), and I've yet to see any LCD camera screen that's good for manual focusing, particularly outdoors. 

Now, as ineffective as I find LCD screens, that's how effective I find the GH5's EVF. Forget focusing for a second, it makes shooting an absolute pleasure. It is razor sharp, like none I've ever seen. So between the magnified area, the peaking tools and the amazing detail of the EVF, manual focusing is easy. 

Now with that said, if you're using MF, I still find AF lock to be quicker and just as effective for run and gun. A simple button push and focus is nailed and locked.

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