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What is the truth about RED's and BLACK's cameras ?

To B or not to B ?  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. What would You recommend me to do if there was a free choice ?

    • Buy the Raven Package - it is better than the competition or ?
      1
    • Buy the Ursa Mini 4,6K - it is better than the competition or ?
      2
    • Buy a third camera - tell me how many bits, formats and so on
      6
    • Buy an old RED or an old BLACKMAGIC - but tell me why ...
      3
    • Rent the stupid bl.... equipment and stop debting Yourself !
      3
    • Balance good equipment with postproduction-stuff like 980TI !
      2


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36 minutes ago, kaylee said:

we were talking about 5d3 raw with magic lantern specifically. unique look and workflow

Excuse me, but I know what you were talking about ...And I'll bet an Icecream on that these 5DMK2 had their Magic Lantern turned on as well :glasses:
And searching for specific 5DMK-3-movies (more famous than an tarctican horrorfilm) didn't give useable results + Nikon seems to be usefull too !

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35 minutes ago, kaylee said:

we were talking about 5d3 raw with magic lantern specifically. unique look and workflow

Yeah all those films were made prior to ML raw, and there's a huge IQ difference between H.264 and raw on the 5DMK2/3. Since then the BMCC and BMPCC have been the crash/compact cams of choice for a lot of productions. I haven't heard much about Magic Lantern being used on big productions, I think mostly because of the hack stigma, and lack of knowledge about how good it is compared to the BMPCC in particular.

15 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Excuse me, but I know what you were talking about ...And I'll bet an Icecream on that these 5DMK2 had their Magic Lantern turned on as well :glasses:
And searching for specific 5DMK-3-movies (more famous than an tarctican horrorfilm) didn't give useable results + Nikon seems to be usefull too !

Peppermint choc chip thanks.

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1 hour ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Sure of course, KUBRICK DID YOU CATCH THAT?!

 

Kubrick-filming-Killers-Kiss.jpg

Kubrick: "No... I'm still using 400 ASA on this 35mm camera..."

He was using less far less than that!

(Up until Eyes Wide Shut, my second favorite Kubrick movie, which was pushed a ton.)

Zach, you're the smartest guy on the forum so you should understand this: not every low end pro has 100+ takes and an effectively unlimited budget like Kubick had at his best. Even he didn't have them early in his career. And we low end pros need our training wheels because we need to pay rent and we don't get our measly day rate when they fall off and we pull the light meter out in from of the groom and knock him off his feet on his first dance on our wedding video. To be fair, yeah, we aspire to be better some day, but reality gets in the way when you need to pay bills. And to reject that need to get by is frankly classist: it's favoring a silver spoon over inventing a new method for mining silver.

I apologize for offending you. I honestly think you're the smartest and most insightful person on the forum and you have the potential to be the next Kubrick yourself, but that you shouldn't be caught up in basic stuff like this either! Nor should you be offended. 

And my personal advice to you: Kubrick had training wheels at first, too. You're young and you're clearly precocious, undeniably the smartest person here and with the most potential to be a great filmmaker. But I doubt you're faced with some of the reality people shooting wedding videos are. In competitive markets, $40k is the bare minimum to survive your first year and $100k is a living wage your second or third and thereafter (and that's in profit, not sales). I know you're a brilliant film theorist and potentially an all-time great director. But can you do that while paying the bills? Matthew Weiner was broke every year before Mad Men; his wife was supporting him completely.

So forgive other people for compromising when they have to. Forgive us for being dumber than you. All I want is to help anyone find what they need at the moment. So their next moment can be better. And while I'm not as smart as you, I feel like I can help other people getting into the low end market to pay bills, and in my experience certain tools are more reliable than others in that quest. 

And read my post, I wrote "production ready for low end pros." And that artists and high end pros would either be using Alexas or spending the time to get the best out of what they have because they can. You're the smartest guy here, you must have caught that. You're also not a "low end pro." You're better than that. And I'm hurt that you'd insult me for just trying to advise someone who's not you. Someone who's needs are lower, but no less important to him as yours.

You've proved you're brilliant in your insight on filmmaking. Now prove it in your behavior. I'm hurt and disappointed. 

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7 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

My problem is that at times you act like you want to sell things to people. As if you work for the company. The Run and Gun thing has also been a prevalent excuse here. Want to know real Run and Gun? Try visiting a distant foreign country where hardly anybody can even afford an expensive camcorder like the ones you offer so they have to deal with handy cams, MiniDv camcorders, DSLRs, and mirrorless cameras to affors. Or why not here in the U.S. where in certain areas crime rate is extremely high and as a result working poor levels rise.

I live and work in video production in the city (within the US, to be fair) with the most visible gap between the rich and poor. Where the highest percentage of non-family non-married adults live in group housing because the ratio of income to cost of living is the highest in the country. You may or may not live in a lower income area, but you don't live in an area where it's harder to support yourself. Neither of us lives in a "distant foreign country," and we should be happy for that and keep it in mind.

Not everything I post is targeted toward you. I shot my best work on a t2i, but I made more money once I bought a more expensive camera. If I were to recommend the best creative tool that would be different from the best financial one. Any post here is an implicit recommendation, I just try to get to the point.

My only recommendation for you is to take things online less personally (that post wasn't targeted toward you), and spend more time on filmmaking. It's the same thing I wish I could do myself and am trying to do. Apologies for offending you or making any sleazy companies more profit. I'm just trying to help.

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I shot heaps of shorts with the MK2. It has a bit more resolution than the MK3 shooting 8bit, but the aliasing was bad pre mosaic filter. This was my first (short) shot with Nikon ai primes, Iscorama anamorphics and nasty green cast LEDs.

 

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7 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Okay. My bad.

It's not, but just don't take things too personally. I do, and look at what trouble it gets me in.

I'm dead serious about the best thing I ever shot being on a t2i btw. I was lucky enough to shoot an ad for NBC on an Alexa and MK-V after that (based on showing the t2i video to a client) and it wasn't nearly as good because I didn't have enough time to control. Maybe next time it will be better. But anyone who judges you on your camera has nothing better to be judged by than theirs. And a camera costs money, not talent.

I still try to recommend certain things to people based on their needs. Unfortunately, money is usually the main one for most people. I remember going to a ramen restaurant where everyone had to speak their dreams, it was a cute place with that theme–and 9/10 they were to get a full time job. Which is to say, to have someone else's approval, financially and in terms of self-worth. But these people lacked the money and approval not to need it, and that's most of us. If you can be true to yourself, and not your client or the internet, more power to you. But at the same time, that's a luxury, and so I feel the only answer is see everyone's point of view.

As storytellers, the goal we should all have is to worry about hiring the best DP instead of buying the best camera. Or being the DP who can choose any camera. People are always worth more than gear.

But we have time to get there and until then, our needs are our own.

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1 hour ago, squig said:

Yeah all those films were made prior to ML raw, and there's a huge IQ difference between H.264 and raw on the 5DMK2/3. Since then the BMCC and BMPCC have been the crash/compact cams of choice for a lot of productions. I haven't heard much about Magic Lantern being used on big productions, I think mostly because of the hack stigma, and lack of knowledge about how good it is compared to the BMPCC in particular.

Peppermint choc chip thanks.

OK, I just learned Magic Lantern RAW came out June 2013 ...   So now we all know !!!    And let THAT be a lesson for kids ...
I apologize for my peasantly ignorance, how stupid of me assuming that RAW was enabled from the start in autumn 2009 !
So, it took them 4 years to make RAW without audio recording ?   And till this day only 1 = 5DMK3 can shoot fullHD, stabile ?

But apparently 5DMK2 makes footage good enough to be part of famous films ?  Without ML RAW ... or RRROOOAAARR ?
BTW ... does Magic Lantern still disable auto-focus in movie mode ?!?!?

 And what else haven't You told me Chico, erh, I mean squiggrouchomarx-1-1.jpg

PS :   BUT I know something more than YOU, SQUIG !!!  And probably lady "Kubrick" too ..... Smiley.jpg

Quote

I haven't heard much about Magic Lantern being used on big productions, I think mostly because of the hack stigma, ...


"Magic Lantern is not a "hack", or a modified firmware, it is an independent program that runs alongside Canon's own software. Each time you start your camera, Magic Lantern is loaded from your memory card. Our only modification was to enable the ability to run software from the memory card."

AND    "It does not replace the existing firmware, but instead runs along side of it. There is no need to "uninstall" it -- simply format your card to reboot to the stock Canon firmware."         http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki 
 

LION.jpg

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5 hours ago, squig said:

Which one was the A cam?

Yeah The Black Death is one of the films I was talking about. Looks great!

1D C was A cam. 

5D mk3 seemed they just handed to some random guy to steal some bonus shots along the way, but all the attention was paid to doing the shot with the 1D C, while the 5D mk3 guy kinda just did his own thing alongside. 

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1 hour ago, TVDino said:


"Magic Lantern is not a "hack", or a modified firmware, it is an independent program that runs alongside Canon's own software. Each time you start your camera, Magic Lantern is loaded from your memory card. Our only modification was to enable the ability to run software from the memory card."

AND    "It does not replace the existing firmware, but instead runs along side of it. There is no need to "uninstall" it -- simply format your card to reboot to the stock Canon firmware."         http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki 
 

You get people believe what they want to believe regardless of facts right? Disdain for working with a "hacked camera" is real, I hear it a lot. Care factor: :sleeping:

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Well I made my decision and can't say I'm unhappy.

Made a little noise torture test with Scarlet X, latest firmware, sensor newly calibrated.

For those unfamiliar, ISO is set in post with raw, while the exposure meter gives a preview of what your post settings will achive, as well as bars for total noise and clipping so you can see how much lights you're getting into the thing.

This is at effective ISO 25600 (12800 is max selection in Premiere, with 1-stop of FLUT push), shot at 10:1 compression (!)

Here you see the noise unprocessed, then with Neat Video, then unprocessed again. watch it in 4K a couple of times to get a good idea. The image is far far brighter than real life, it's a little shadowy corner with a tiny amount of natural light.

The joy of raw! As I test more I'm working out how best to use ISO to set where your dynamic range lives. In future I'd do all shots intended for high ISO at lowest compression just to get every bit of detail i can. I love that when it pans over to the leaflet you can read it all so clearly. Magic!

I knew it would be good but this is just... silly.

Don't worry though, I still love my Canons ;)

The camera is extremly heavy with an Anton Bauer battery on the back, and with a Redvolt the battery life is abysmal, plus the footage is big and the media are nauseatingly expensive, so it'll never be as convenient as a C100. But god damn, tis pretty. Can't argue with 16-bit colour even when you're attempting to destroy it...

Neat Video 4.1 is a great update. It makes full use of powerful GPUs and has brilliant temporal settings that assist with low-frequency noise across time. Great stuff!

 

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On 20/4/2016 at 10:32 AM, jgharding said:

Well I made my decision and can't say I'm unhappy.

Made a little noise torture test with Scarlet X, latest firmware, sensor newly calibrated.

For those unfamiliar, ISO is set in post with raw, while the exposure meter gives a preview of what your post settings will achive, as well as bars for total noise and clipping so you can see how much lights you're getting into the thing.

This is at effective ISO 25600 (12800 is max selection in Premiere, with 1-stop of FLUT push), shot at 10:1 compression (!)

Here you see the noise unprocessed, then with Neat Video, then unprocessed again. watch it in 4K a couple of times to get a good idea. The image is far far brighter than real life, it's a little shadowy corner with a tiny amount of natural light.

The joy of raw! As I test more I'm working out how best to use ISO to set where your dynamic range lives. In future I'd do all shots intended for high ISO at lowest compression just to get every bit of detail i can. I love that when it pans over to the leaflet you can read it all so clearly. Magic!

I knew it would be good but this is just... silly.

Don't worry though, I still love my Canons ;)

The camera is extremly heavy with an Anton Bauer battery on the back, and with a Redvolt the battery life is abysmal, plus the footage is big and the media are nauseatingly expensive, so it'll never be as convenient as a C100. But god damn, tis pretty. Can't argue with 16-bit colour even when you're attempting to destroy it...

Neat Video 4.1 is a great update. It makes full use of powerful GPUs and has brilliant temporal settings that assist with low-frequency noise across time. Great stuff!

Glad You enjoy it jgharding ! ;-)   Hope to find one soon myself ...

Actually, in March a Scarlet-X was sold for $ 4.000 at reduser.net (with Side 1.8" SSD Module + Side Handle + AC Adapter + EF Mount), but presently the prices on reduser & ebay suffer from wild spring fever, people asking $ 14.625 for a bit more than was sold for $ 4.000 ! :astonished:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-Scarlet-Lightweight-studio-package-/201565501300?hash=item2eee3d7774:g:6wUAAOSwyQtVlrxJ
Yes, it's an auction and I'll kick in where I can, so people don't get used to see this insane pricelevel ... 

Finally I must thank EVERYONE at this forum for, in so many different ways, helping me resist
buying "The Raven-package" and spending (EURO) € 10.000 which equals about $ 11.569 !

Thanks for "diverting my blinkers set for catastrophe" - honestly, I am VERY gratefull ... ;-)

As a matter of fact EU's import-taxes would only demand (EURO) € 9.000 [ = $ 10.412 ]
but RED apparently wants to earn 10 % more on Europeans ...

And for those who, like me would have ordered now, here's the nonchalant message from RED today :
"ORDERS PLACED TODAY EXPECT TO BE SHIPPED IN FALL 2016"

But, they kept their word and raised the "Raven-prices" with a $ 1.000 and for Europe of course with € 1.000 !

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PS :
Thanks again everyone for stopping my Raven-mania; I owe You all an icecream, so next time You're in Denmark PM first !

Tootsie-Frootsie.jpg  12049141_10205438789710817_7479646971073609402_n.jpg 188.gif

NB : Yes, I know You want Peppermint choc chip, Squig ! ;-)

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Regarding what films are shot with - such as 5D Mark3 (or not ?) - I found a very interesting article here :

 http://filmmakersfans.com/kind-of-camera-used-for-movie-making/   

>> Actually, which camera is used for movie making?  Added on July 27, 2015

Which camera is best for making films? If you are new to the filmmaking, you must thought about this ever once. A cameraman/filmmaker is selecting a film camera on the basis of proficiency in the technology, his flexibility and the basis of project: Okay, then which camera is best for making the films? Check out below, you probably can find a satisfying answer from this article.

1. ARRI Alexa

ARRI Alex is a motion picture equipment manufacturing company, which was founded by August Arnold and Robert Richter in Munich, Germany.  The organization was formed in the year 1917 and they developed their first film camera in 1924. The company became well known in the limelight, after their chief movie camera designer ‘Erich Kästner’ developed world’s first reflex mirror shutter in the Arriflex 35 camera. Now, they have seven variant of film cameras namely- Alexa, Alexa Plus, Alexa SXT, Alexa Mini, Alexa Plus 4:3, Alexa 65, Alexa XT, Alexa Studio and Alexa M.

The films like In Time (2011), 21 Jump Street (2012), Skyfall (2012), Rock of Ages (2012) and Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter (2012). The basic model of the ARRI camera includes a View Finder starts at $39.999.

2. Red Epic Camera

The Red Epic camera is a product of The Red Digital Cinema Camera Company, based in Irvine, California. The company was founded by Jim Jannard, in 2005: The first camera that was developed from The Red Digital Cinema Camera Company was – Red one, the Red Epic Camera is the most recent one. Some notable features that are included in the Red Epic camera are 19 megapixel Red Dragon sensor, 1920 x 1080 resolution High-def output, cheaper in price and weightless. Movies like District 9 (2009), Book of Eli (2010), Social Network (2010), the Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (2012) and War Horse (2011) are visualized using the epic camera. Cost of The Red Epic camera is starts at $25,000

3. Red Scarlet Camera

The Red scarlet camera is another film camera variant from The Red Digital Cinema Camera Company. We’ve noticed that numerous films of Hollywood are filmed with the Red Scarlet Camera. Some examples of films shot on Red Scarlet Camera are   En solitaire (2013), The Expendables 3 (2014), The Raid 2: Berandal  (2014), Drinking Buddies  (2013) and Ghostlight (2013). Price of Red Scarlet camera is $9,700.

4. Sony Motion Picture Camera

Sony- a Japan based brand well-known since from its establishment for the manufacturing of top quality electronic equipments. Sony had developed high end professional camera models such as FS7, F5, F3, F55 and F65.Amonmg those five variant models, the cameras like F55, F3 and F65 are the industry professionals preferred cameras. F65 was launched two years back, it cost around $65,000, similarly the cost of F55 is ‎US$ 28,990.00 and cost of F3 is $13,960.00.

5. GoPro

After the Sony, ARRI and Red, the camera manufacturer name that that industry professionals recommend is GoPro. GoPro, Inc was founded by Nick Woodman in 2002.  GoPro cameras are compactable in size options, shock resistant and have waterproof casing structure. It is also a favourite camera of guerrilla filmmakers. The Premier Hollywood movie ‘Furious 7’ was completely shot on GoPro. Basic prize of GoPro camera starts at US$499.99.

6. Black Magic Camera

Black Magic Camera is one of the most preferable cameras of indie filmmakers and experimental filmmakers, why because it is cost less as compare with the big brands, also it gives better video outputs. Blackmagic Design is a product of Blackmagic Design Pty Ltd, an Australian Company that was founded by Grant Petty in 1984. You can grab a good high end digital film camera that branded by black magic for $2,995. Films like -Hero Punk (2015), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015) and inside the belly of a dragon (2014) are shot on Black Magic Camera.

Shot Film On ‘Penny’ filmed  on Black Magic Camera

7.  Canon C300

Canon C300 is specially designed for film industry professionals: it is included with the core features such as Super 35mm-Size CMOS Sensor, EF lens mount and it highly compatible  with all of Canon’s new EF Cinema lenses. The movies that shot on canon c 300 are Her (2013), 20 Feet from Stardom  (2013), Blue Ruin  (2013) and R.A. Resident Advisor  (2012). The starting price of canon C300 camera is $6,999.00. <<

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Just did another shoot with an Amira and a Scarlet.

There's just no competition for Amira/Alexa in overall image.

The Amira resolves more with upscaled 4K than the MX sensor does at native. Its noise pattern is fine and has soft colours, while the MX sensor's is blotchy yellow/purpleyblue. The colour and grading latitude are stunning with no need for raw in most circumstances, the hardware and software are rock solid.

It's just jaw dropping to use in post. BUT I can't justify the cost to own, so an older Scarlet for £5,000 for the whole kit was more sensible. A decent Amira setup will cost you £35,000.

I've not used Dragon sensor yet. An MX sensor still kicks most images, it's just when you put it next to the Arri sensor, it's a jaw dropper.

Next shoot though will be two C100s. It's all horses for courses as they say. One always has complaints about an image but it just depends how spoiled you are!

Blue Ruin is a great example of how good the C300 is as the whole thing was shot on it, but some of the listed pieces it was an occasional B-cam.

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

***WAS***

Now it is more like US$1.5K secondhand. 

Still an absolute fantastic camera, and the best value one in its class today even in 2016. 

Yeah, the price-info is outdated and there are some bad mistakes too . E.G.  RED's Epic was not available untill november 2010 !
So the "Epic-movies" from 2009 & 2010 like "Social Network", "Book of Eli" and "District 9" was shot on RED ONE ... ;-) 
And remembering the Canon-DSLR-movie--discussion I noted that the later Blomenkamp "Chappie" uses 5 D mark 3 mixed with
Epic Dragon and others ! :grin:   But the cameras/brands are very observant, looks right to me - they made a good overview ! :glasses:

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