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Andrew Reid

The Panasonic GH3 calls to explorers

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Actually it depends. When you have hard color edge - for example a red circle over a black (or green) background or a fin color line - the better chroma sampling you have the best it is. So it really depends on the shots. A lots of the color moire that people on this website are seeing is actually bad chroma sampling like 4:2:0.

For computer graphics, anything less than 4:4:4 is really annoying.

[quote name='Axel' timestamp='1347658179' post='18064']
I am not so sure what you expect of 4:2:2. You won't [u]see[/u] any difference compared to 4:2:0. It is color resolution actually. 4:2:0 is a compression factor that uses the [u]inability[/u] of the human eye to distinguish colors with the same accuracy as subtle brightness changes. It can't be downsampled well for different TV resolutions (SD, HDready, FullHD, interlace, progressive), that's why the broadcasters officially don't support it. There was a myth that you couldn't color-key with it. Now look at all the greenscreen videos shot with DSLRs.
[/quote]

In fact, what you describe is a linear color space. (Gamma 1.0) At 8bit, it is not really a good idea, as you'll get a lot of posterization in the shadows. Most image/video codec work in a logarithmic color space, mainly a 2.2 gamma curve. According to wikipedia, it gives you about 11-stops of dynamic range - similar to 11bit linear - that gives about 24-steps for each stop. As the GH2 seems to have 12 bits raw, you're not losing much dynamic range in the conversion (the first stop have only one step).

A 10-bit log color space with gamma 2.2 should be similar to 14bit linear, and 12bit log to 16bit linear.



[quote name='Axel' timestamp='1347658179' post='18064']
10-bit is different. It is more related to the dynamic range. 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256 describe the stops an 8-bit video can store. Every time the luminance doubles is one stop, makes 9 stops ideally. Due to the limitations of electronic signals, the range is mostly between 16 and 235, between 4 and 5 stops. HDR 8-bit means scaling the values through a curve, remapping them. But then, of course, the whole image is just flatted down, gradients that should have at least 30 steps to appear smooth get only 10, and banding occurs.

Let's assume the GH2 could hold 8 stops by various tricks. If the GH3 has considerably better dynamic range, say 10 stops, how can they be stored in 8-bit, when 10-bit can only store 11?
[/quote]

Unless your doing a really really subtle gradient (or generating computer graphics), you should not see the difference. So you probably have amazing eyes, or a bad 8bit monitor. Where the 10bit shine is on grading - you'll have less posterization if you manipulate too much the luminosity.

[quote name='Axel' timestamp='1347658179' post='18064']
It's easy to see a difference between 8-bit and 10-bit - on a 10-bit monitor. Alas, Panasonic may rightly suppose that most GH3 buyers don't own a 10-bit monitor. So perhaps the banding issue may not be solved.
[/quote]

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They improved DR on this and that makes it useable outdoors over the GH2 which suffered terribly. From that video it still has that electronic look. 1080p 60fps is a plus. It certainly looks promising and it now depend on how it takes gradings. It will be an ideal B camera for the BMC.

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[quote name='Axel' timestamp='1347648593' post='18037']
Did they only invite Philip Bloom? Or could you lay hands on the GH3 as well, but had to sign a non-disclosure-contract? Because I think you deserved most to be involved in this, keeping in mind how many bought a GH2 on your recommendation.

However, I can't wait to read and see what PB and you have to say. Let the review be of the same bluntness as PBs review of the BMCC.
[/quote]

Philip Bloom is "the face" of videography technology demonstrator, like the man from Del Monte they need him to say "Yes" because all the lemmings need to be told what is good and what is not by someone with an English accent. Quite frankly I find him condescendinig on his reviews and actually rather rude. Thats said he is pretty good at what he does as a filmmaker.

Does Andrew feel the hurt of not being invited? If I was Panny I probably won't extend my invite to Andrew because he is too opinionated and goes off on a tangent like a drunkard on a pup crawl, not the sort of PR guy a manufacturer look for to promote their gears :o

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Ok.... I posted my quick 'but is it 4:2:2' comment during work. Didn't expect to see a whole discussion. Also wanted to know if it's 10 bit.
I wasn't being sarcastic with the question. Just wanted to know if it was 422 10bit. I left the 10bit out but just snuck a quick comment while working:)

I'll just wait for the camera specs next week:D

Enjoyed the discussion on 420 vs 422 though:D

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Phil has been back on this sight recently. My guess is cooler heads prevailed and that all is good in the hood between A. and P. I wouldnt be suprised if Andrew recommended Phil, but he certainly wouldn't begrudge him the gig.

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[quote name='HurtinMinorKey' timestamp='1347682320' post='18083']
Phil has been back on this sight recently. My guess is cooler heads prevailed and that all is good in the hood between A. and P. I wouldnt be suprised if Andrew recommended Phil, but he certainly wouldn't begrudge him the gig.
[/quote]

You almost had me then ;)

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[quote name='Simco123' timestamp='1347680770' post='18081']
Philip Bloom is "the face" of videography technology demonstrator, like the man from Del Monte they need him to say "Yes" because all the lemmings need to be told what is good and what is not by someone with an English accent. Quite frankly I find him condescendinig on his reviews and actually rather rude. Thats said he is pretty good at what he does as a filmmaker.

Does Andrew feel the hurt of not being invited? If I was Panny I probably won't extend my invite to Andrew because he is too opinionated and goes off on a tangent like a drunkard on a pup crawl, not the sort of PR guy a manufacturer look for to promote their gears :o
[/quote]

If by condescending and rude you mean incredibly fair and honest then sure! He is a brilliant filmmaker and does a ton to help this community. As does Andrew here

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Why is everyone arguing about color depth?
While a very interesting subject and I enjoyed the discussion, it is not the most visible downside of the gh2 image quality.

By converting the video in 10bits in post you can push the image quite far already.
And although 10bit is much welcome straight out of camera for grading flexibility, isn't the flashing macro blocking noise the most visible downside of the current gh2 image quality?

I think it is the most visible let down that must be fixed before even considering more color depth...
I really hope the new codec gets rid of this.

You want better image quality for your movies on the gh3?
Taking the gh2 as a starting point, what I think we need, ranking by most visually noticeable is:

1. No more flashing chunky macro blocking noise. Grain like noise instead.
2. Wider dynamic range especially in the highlights
3. More color depth for grading flexibility and better gradients

At least that's the way I see it.

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If they kept it under ISO 100~12800, maybe they did so to extend the dynamic range, which makes sense. I just hope it's not a ISO 200~3200 in which you atificially get ISO 100/6400/12800 with DR loss.

It's hard to tell, but maybe if this is a Sony sensor, it's not the same as the OM-D E-M5 and it was custom made. Or it's really a Panasonic sensor after all - it will be easy to tell, if Panasonic tries to make it a secret, well, we'll know it's probably Sony's. It will be interesting if it has phase detection inside the sensor like Sony's new sensors.

The problem is that Panasonic was struggling in two areas, DR and high ISO, usually you sacrifice a little bit of one to get more of the other, so it's complicated when in the same generation Sony did a better job in both. Of course, Panasonic is better at Video codec, so they made up a little bit in that area.

What about the Engine? My dream was Panny's video with Oly's pics, can the new Venus Engine get anything close to what Olympus does? I have to say that even considering all the compression in the video and all that bla bla bla, the pics that were taken with the GH3 in the promo didn't really impress me as much as I wanted. But let's wait until the first shots and previews.

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Can someone explain to me why BSI sensors are not used in large sensors camera? Is it just about cost or some technology limitation as well? How much time until we can get large BSI sensors? It makes me want BSI sensor with Global Shutter and very fast read out type of thing... hahaha...

What are the benefits of a BSI sensor besides a better low light performance? Better DR as well? What else?

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[quote name='KarimNassar' timestamp='1347686065' post='18087']
And although 10bit is much welcome straight out of camera for grading flexibility, isn't the flashing macro blocking noise the most visible downside of the current gh2 image quality?

[/quote]

With my half knowledge I understand the term macro blocking as the 'big square pixel clouds' I see in big, darker areas. Correct me. It is probably not noise, but simplifying gradients, and therefore has the same origins as banding. Does it disappear at higher bitrates?

[quote name='theSUBVERSIVEBIRDS' timestamp='1347686544' post='18088']
What about the Engine? My dream was Panny's video with Oly's pics, can the new Venus Engine get anything close to what Olympus does? I have to say that even considering all the compression in the video and all that bla bla bla, the pics that were taken with the GH3 in the promo didn't really impress me as much as I wanted. But let's wait until the first shots and previews.
[/quote]

In my view, the D600 video was better not only for the images. It had a little 'story'. It was filmed and edited better. Why did Pana allow the distorted wide angle shots, the shaky handheld shots asf. in their promotional video? These videos tell more about the skills of the filmmakers than about the quality of the camera. In the screening room here one sees much better clips with the GH2 (and many other cameras), and probably almost every mobile phone can be promoted better. Did you see [url="http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/6/3297878/nokias-pureview-still-photos-also-include-fakes"]this[/url]?

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I fell, that, maybe, the reason, that the Video on Youtube, and subsequently, on Vimeo, was uploaded on 720p, was done, for a reason. Maybe, like a build-up, to the real thing.

I would wait for 1080p version to come out, and, then, perhaps, make a judgment, on the video quality.

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[quote name='Simco123' timestamp='1347680770' post='18081']
Philip Bloom is "the face" of videography technology demonstrator, like the man from Del Monte they need him to say "Yes" because all the lemmings need to be told what is good and what is not by someone with an English accent. Quite frankly I find him condescendinig on his reviews and actually rather rude. Thats said he is pretty good at what he does as a filmmaker.

Does Andrew feel the hurt of not being invited? If I was Panny I probably won't extend my invite to Andrew because he is too opinionated and goes off on a tangent like a drunkard on a pup crawl, not the sort of PR guy a manufacturer look for to promote their gears :o
[/quote]

You find me condescending in my reviews and rude? Really? First time I have heard that!

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Maybe, Philip n Simco123 (perhaps, DP below) have interacted before:


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DP[/size]3 WEEKS AGO[/size][/color][size=3]

Canon has for years trying to find a way to sell their grossly over priced EF L lenses (chromatic aberrations et al) and here they go, introducing the C100 8-bit 1080i camcorder (1080P only @24fps) … Not even 720P 60?
“8 bits. That’s what the pros are using and that is all you need. You don’t need 60P”
That’s Canon Marketing for you. Just wait for their lame “Imagine what you can do…” marketing campaign to hit your screen – Canon loves to spend tons of money paying established professionals to say good things about their cameras because Canon has a really, really hard time getting established professionals to actually purchase their products on their own – without asking for promotional compensation. EXAMPLE: Look at the professional DP’s who had Press Releases, Promotional Materials/ Images and Articles already written by the time Canon announced the C100 to the public… They literally have to pay these professionals to use their products. That is part of the reason their products are always over priced.
Do you really think Ron Howard thought in his head “Finally, now I can craft the image Iv’e always wanted!” when the C300 hit the market? Hello??? Canon paid Howard a sweet sum of money and promised to promote Ron Howard’s daughter and her film if he promoted the C300…
8 bits… No 60P. HDMI color space. No SDI… AVCHD… Over priced…
Who do you think will be the C100 poster boy this time around?[url="http://philipbloom.net/wp-login.php?redirect_to=http%3A%2F%2Fphilipbloom.net%2F2012%2F08%2F29%2Finitial-thoughts-on-the-canon-eos-c100%2F"]Log in to Reply[/url][/size][/size][/size][/font][/color][list]
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[url="http://philipbloom.net/members/pbloom/"]PHILIP BLOOM[/url][/size]3 WEEKS AGO[/size][/color][size=3]

Dude. You need to seriously tone down the vitriol. It’s not needed and way over the top. It’s a bloody camera, nobody has kidnapped your first born! If you don’t like it vote with your wallet!
No haters on my site. Thanks
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Its JUST a Wild Guess. I'm no Hercule Poirot ... :D :P ;-)

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[quote name='Simco123' timestamp='1347680770' post='18081']
Philip Bloom is "the face" of videography technology demonstrator, like the man from Del Monte they need him to say "Yes" because all the lemmings need to be told what is good and what is not by someone with an English accent. Quite frankly I find him condescendinig on his reviews and actually rather rude. Thats said he is pretty good at what he does as a filmmaker.

Does Andrew feel the hurt of not being invited? If I was Panny I probably won't extend my invite to Andrew because he is too opinionated and goes off on a tangent like a drunkard on a pup crawl, not the sort of PR guy a manufacturer look for to promote their gears :o
[/quote]

It is such a sadness that you feel comments like this are necessary Simco123.

You're entitled to your opinions but why make it personal?

Our names are out there, yours isn't. If you want to stay in the forum I'm asking you to do a simple thing - change your username to your real name and put a real picture up there. If you don't do it before your next comment, I'll ask you to leave.

Maybe think about your contribution and how useful it is too. I can tell you the value of that comment above - it is zero to people wanting to discuss the GH3. If only I had the time back from responding to off-topic slander on web forums, I'd be able to design my own damn camera.

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I'm not in the least bit sad because of a nasty comment on what was a very positive thread. I just think it is a sad situation. How can I stop this from happening again? Censorship? Ban? Humour him? Nope the offer is there to Simco, if he wants to continue he'll have to put his real identity out there and not hide behind a grey shadowy figure.

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