eatstoomuchjam

The discounts don't seem to have come to the US, at least not yet.  Used bodies are still about $1,200 here and new is still about $1,400 body-only.  

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Fairchild are part of OnSemi now.

The Blackmagic 12K sensor manufacturer is probably OnSemi as well?

I certainly don't follow the mergers or spinoffs of semiconductor companies too closely (and especially not closely since apparently the acquisition happened in 2016, though maybe the Fairchild branding still remains?).  😅

I think they've said "designed and manufactured by BMD," but I'm guessing that's "manufactured" as in "handed money to someone who owns a sensor fab who is probably apparently-former-Fairchild-now-OnSemi" since BMD building a sensor fab would be pretty bonkers.

7 hours ago, alsoandrew said:

My orig comment was in response to why Panasonic can't compete in regards to access to image sensors and instead gets access to the latest tech a year/cycle behind Canon, Nikon, and Sony. Their organic sensor never made it out of the lab and even if it did Panasonic themselves have no fab to manufacture it themselves and would have to contract it out to a third party. 

We all understood your point and you seem to have completely ignored the responses that you quoted.

Panasonic don't have to make their own sensors in order to have access to the latest/greatest technology.  Other companies like Red, Arri, and BlackMagic don't make their own sensors and go to third-party vendors like TowerJazz, Fairchild, and OnSemi.  Each of those three vendors have sensors that are desirable over the sensors made by Sony for various reasons.

As to the patents thing you halfway brought up, a google search for Panasonic image sensor patent returns a non-zero number of results.  You say Panasonic doesn't have anything to bring to the bargaining table, but you don't seem to actually know that, especially because you make statements like "Canon's DPAF builds on Sony's PDAF" which doesn't make a lot of sense, given that they are radically distinct technologies (sure, DPAF is a form of phase detecting AF, but then, in any realistic way, that sort of phase detection is how every manually-focused rangefinder camera in the history of cameras has worked).

But more than any of that, people already brought up specific examples of Panasonic buying sensors from someone other than Sony, including for the GH7 which was announced almost exactly 1 year ago and has the most advanced Micro 4/3 sensor ever made - with PDAF.

4 hours ago, maxJ4380 said:

I'm a bit surprised more hasn't been said in this forum about the various gimbals. Maybe that in itself could be taken as a sign... 

4 hours ago, maxJ4380 said:

There does seem to be a lack of long term reviews and if you can find an answered question about what they still use, most of the time its they have moved on to something different. Actually i'm finding the whole youtube review thing a bit shallow, if i'm honest. You get 10 minutes of some guy yapping on, in front of a camera with basically a bunch of different pan and tilt product shots and maybe 90 seconds of actual gimbal footage. Some youtubes have a better balance. Well see what happens after it turns up.

 

To some extent, I think both of these things are related.  For the most part, gimbals haven't changed a lot in a long time.  Manufacturers got pretty good, a while ago, at making them.  If you buy the latest and fanciest gimbal made today, it won't me meaningfully different than a pretty good gimbal from 5-7 years ago.

A number of the changes/updates tend to be in other features like having a secondary camera where you can ask the gimbal to track people - or gimbal-integrated focus motors.  And really, there's only so much to say in reviews of those things.  Otherwise, a DJI will work a lot like a Zhiyun which will work a lot like a Feiyutech, all of which will probably work somewhat better than a Hohem (but the Hohem will probably still get the job done).  😅

Anyway, the Crane 2S is a solid choice!  Looking forward to seeing what you shoot with it!

I'd be alright with a smartphone with an M43 sensor and the ability to swap out the integrated lens for M43.  Then use like the Panasonic 14/2.5 or the Panasonic 20/1.7 with it - and maybe the Funinon 75mm for portraits.  Those lenses are really small/tiny and would fit in any sort of pocket or daypack.

But at the point where you're taking a tiny camera and adding a bigass DJI Focus Pro to it, complete with handle, lidar unit, and focus motor, you no longer have a tiny camera.  Then add a DOF adapter?  Is the goal to just make the weirdest-looking camera in the room?

3 hours ago, mtol said:

1927 doesn't really apply here. I'm a solo operator doing run and gun doc work, and I want the most unobtrusive and functional gear I can afford in 2025. I'm curious what peoples' mirrorless rigs look like where XLR input is a priority outside of the Sony and Panasonic systems.

No need for 1927 technology!  As recently as 2018, people were only doing run-and-gun film shoots without the benefit of 32 bits.  Heck, even now nearly every sound engineer I film with has a 32-bit capable recorder, but records in 24-bit anyway because they don't feel that 32-bit is needed.  The others?  Never upgraded to a 32-bit recorder.

As far as how people are connecting XLR, on my Reds, I plug in an adapter from the built-in little mini double-XLR port to the XLR mic - after all, using a camera that natively has XLR inputs.  A Komodo with that is probably either smaller or nearly the same total volume as a Panasonic S1 with the XLR adapter on top.
Z Cam also use a dual mini-XLR port.  I bet some models of Black Magic do too.
All are 24-bit, of course, and that's enough for most things.
On the Ronin 4D, XLR plug into the expansion unit.
On the Ursa Cine 12K, there are full-size XLR ports.

Otherwise, you already mentioned the CA-XLR2D which is barely any bigger than the Fuji or Sony XLR adapter.  That's available for Canon and Fuji.  It won't give 32-bit, but as before, 24-bit is still enough for most things.  Otherwise, you can just jump up to one of their more cinema-focused bodies.  The C70 has mini-XLR.  I'd guess something like an FX6 does too.

Otherwise, for an unobtrusive rig, one can just simply not use XLR and connect any number of extremely decent non-XLR microphones to the camera's mic input port.  One example would be the Deity V-Mic D4, though I'm sure Sennheiser and R0de have some too.  Still 24-bit, but for many uses, it's also just fine, just like it was for many years before 2019.

3 hours ago, mtol said:

I've thought about this and it is appealing on some level, but having to power multiple devices is still a drawback for me. Still, I do wonder how people are rigging up other systems - other than Sony / Panasonic - for run and gun sound, with the Tascam XLR shoe adapters seeming like a less than ideal setup.

The Jazz Singer was released in October of 1927.  That would seem to indicate that people have made sync sound films for about 98 years now.  The first commonly-used 32-bit field recorders seem to have been the Zoom F6 and some Sound Devices something-or-other which were released about 6 years ago in 2019.

So... I'd expect that people who are shooting non-Sony, non-Panasonic cameras (or who are using those cameras without expensive 32-bit adapters) are probably still doing fine with 24-bit audio that everybody used for the 92 years before that, whether run and gun or otherwise.  😉

6 hours ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

Or… I pay a bit more and get the Pyxis 12K. Or (and I’m betting on this option,) I wait ~80 weeks, and whaddayaknow?! BMD has either dropped the 12K’s price, or they come out with something new and people sell the 12K at a discount in response. There’s no way a BMD camera holds at launch price past 24 months, it simply never happens. If we’re after a top-tier sensor in a sensible body? Everything else is up against that. Unless you need AF, but if you need AF why haven’t you already bought either a Sony or a Canon?

 

I'll look forward to Pyxis 12K bodies hitting the used market.  I'm a fan of the UC12K and would love a lighter b camera.

It's also worth note that even though it doesn't have it now, and I wouldn't buy a camera based on potential future capabilities, but I don't think that BMD has specifically said yet that there are no PDAF pixels in the 12K sensor and that it wouldn't be something that could be added in the future.  I think they're wise to beta their AF firmware on a single camera only for now to work out the kinks, but if they add usable AF to the 12K cameras, I think they know that they have a thing that could compel changes from other systems.

Heck, if AF comes to Pyxis, BMD might be the last great hope for L mount!

41 minutes ago, mtol said:

Is there an audio solution for the Nikon Z6III that lets me input XLR audio (not to mention record in 32 bit)? Without this, they're not really comparable cameras for my use case.

Not directly, but the Zoom F3 is close to the same size as the Panasonic XLR adapter, but only costs $300 where the Panasonic adapter adds $500.  It can mount on top of the Z3 and record 32-bit internally while giving a clean feed to the camera which can record 24-bit internally.  While it's less convenient to sync files in post, you would also only have to do that in cases where you actually need 32-bit which, for a vast majority of people, will be rare.

Also unlike the Panasonic adapter which will probably only work on Lumix cameras, it will work on any camera you want to use.  Less convenient, but the goal is accomplished.

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/field-recorders/field-recorders/f3/

15 minutes ago, Al Dolega said:

I try to limit my social-media/vertical-video viewing, but even so I do end up still seeing a fair amount of slo-mo being used, especially obnoxious ramped slo-mo. So I can definitely see there being demand. I don't doubt you're not seeing it, though- the algorithm gives us all different things.

That's also fair enough.  I don't rule out that there's much bigger demand for a feature than I'd expect, but that is certainly a weird one.

16 minutes ago, Al Dolega said:

There's also anamorphic shooters and those who just want to shoot in a square-er format, too. And even those never touching slo-mo benefit from the demand for slo-mo as it generally brings down the rolling shutter in regular-speed modes, too.

Yes, 3:2 is certainly useful with a 1.5 or 1.6x anamorphic adapter which, at least, gives a bit more of the anamorphic look.  Though for a 2x anamorphic, it's still far from ideal since you end up with 3:1 which looks nice, but ends up being a really thin strip on a lot of TV's and monitors and isn't a native aspect ratio on a lot of theater screens.

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

A pretty dark hole of a room for bride prep and unless anywhere near that window, then screwed. It's SOOC and not touched it in any way; exposure, WB...nuffink. 6k 30p shot at 1/50th, 4000 iso, 5000 WB, Freewell ND 2-5, exposure otherwise eyeballed on the rear LCD with the wave form I rarely look at.

Not cinematic enough.  I fixed it for you.  Now that's cinematic.

27 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Oh yeah definitely quite a number of them want 60P opengate so they export all kind of ratio.

I get wanting open gate for ratio changes, but 60p?  Am I missing something where everything is slowed down 2.5x?  Most of what I see is still presented at normal speed, give or take.  Or does the excitement mean that this new camera will be the harbinger of a new era of everything online seeming  v e e r r r y y y y   s  s  s  l  l  l  o  o   o   w   w   w?

16 minutes ago, Al Dolega said:

Maybe BlackMagic using FPGA processors instead of ASICs, which I believe is cheaper, is part of their low pricing? Also why their cameras are so power-hungry compared to a mirrorless or Sony Canon etc cinema cams processing similar amounts of info (actually, way less processing for BM cams, as they're not compressing down to h264/265 etc).

If you're in any sort of mass production, FPGA is substantially more expensive than ASIC - and a lot more power hungry.  It's one of the reason that the Z Cam E2 series was so power efficient.  It's all ASIC.  On the other vendors' cameras, things like H.265 encoding are mostly done with a dedicated coprocessor so it's super-duper efficient.  It's one of the reasons that you'll rarely see any of them add a codec post-release.  Dedicated silicon is also why encode/decode can be a lot faster on the computer, depending on which processor/GPU is in play.

I dunno - the V-Raptor [X] sensor seems to be a marvel of modern engineering - and while it's designed by RED's engineers, the semiconductor manufacturing is done by TowerJazz.

And quite good, if not marvelous, the Komodo and Komodo-X sensors are also made by them and they are fantastic.

Plus the GH7 sensor is, from everything I've heard, really really good.

My guess is that it's largely a cost-based decision.  The off-the-shelf part from Sony has much better economy of scale and it's "good enough" for most things.  It's sort of the basis for the Z Cam business model - integrate high-end (though inexpensive) off-the-shelf components and write good software to glue them together.  The entire E2 series is basically a wedding of Sony sensors with... I think it's Hisense?  Anyway, with another off-the-shelf circuit board.  They shove those things into a box and put a lens mount and teeny tiny screen on it.  The majority of their R&D is in software.

It's not hard to imagine somebody in Panasonic management looking at a price sheet and saying "We could integrate this TowerJazz sensor for $1,200 and get 10% better performance than the Sony sensor which costs $600.  Either way, we're going to sell the camera for $3,800.  Will we get enough extra sales based on 10% better performance to make up for a $600/unit shortfall?"

That's even more the case when you are also supporting budget cameras like the S9 which basically demands a commodity sensor which will come from Sony.  So you already have a team of engineers who are familiar with the ins and outs of Sony's sensors and having them also support (or having a different team to support) TowerJazz is also going to be expensive.

I have no insight into the actual costs of either vendor, but if you're Red and were selling the Komodo for like $6,000 or $7,000 when it was first released, spending an extra few hundred bucks per sensor ain't so bad because you have enormous margin.

BlackMagic are the real outlier here.  They seem genuinely less interested in turning a huge profit per unit with their cameras.  It's not to say the high end where they use Fairchild isn't expensive, but I'm still a little bit boggled by the UC 12K which, at $7,000 is a lot, but less than 2x an R5 Mark II.  Other than the fact that my car's suspension groans when I set the camera on the passenger seat, that is.  Well, that and offloading footage from the media module.  They really need to release a single module reader with USB-C.  Having to offload directly from the camera over 10gE is really silly.  It means I'll have the CF Express module in my bag most of the time, just in case we need to offload on-site.

4 hours ago, PPNS said:

when’s the last time you’ve shot or made one? this comes off as jealousy that you couldn’t maintain your position as a reviewer-influencer.

Counterpoint: Did Gerald ever make one?

And didn't Panasonic quite literally just invite Andrew to review a camera, but he turned them down?  It's a weird time to make that accusation.  😃

I don't have VR goggles, but I do have a 77" TV that's in my dark basement and I usually sit about 8-10 feet from it.  I scooch up a bit closer when I want to preview how something will look on a big theatrical screen from 30-40 feet away.  If I really want the full experience, though, I'll ask a friend to come chew popcorn and talk while I'm trying to watch it.  😉

Pyxis also does 72p open gate for not a lot more - though it can only do open gate 72p at 8K, 12k is limited to a mere 40.

And the UC12K does 12k open gate at 80fps and 8k at 144fps.

Komodo-X also does open gate at 80fps, though open gate on K-X is 17:9.

All of those cameras support those framerates in raw.  I think the S1 II can only do it in 10-bit or less formats, right?  Not a deal-breaker, but another limitation.

I don't know why anybody acts like shooting high FPS open gate is a hugely exciting feature, though.  Is shooting slow motion 3:2 really a huge use case?  For the sort of stuff that I shoot, we're usually delivering in scope and overcranking done rarely at best.

... and Black Magic seem to be able to source sensors from Fairchild.  And Red from Towerjazz (or at least they did once?).   Even if those are exclusive contracts, there are plenty of others able to make image sensors. 

https://us.metoree.com/categories/image-sensor/

At least in the case of BMD and Red, that also means that they have sensors that are a lot more interesting than others - with Red having a global shutter with similar DR performance (or superior in the case of V-Raptor) to non-global shutters used in most mirrorless cameras.  And in the case of BMD, the RGBW sensor in the UC12K and Pyxis is fantastic and a great differentiator vs Sony's offerings.

The catch is that there's a big upfront cost in development of those or other sensors and Panasonic are unlikely to invest that - instead focusing on extracting money from customers who are locked in to their mount and from technology licensing deals with Leica.

I've heard a few times that the sensor in the A7 IV is pretty fantastic, though I haven't used it myself.  It makes perfect sense to put it in a cine-style body!

Less sense to give it a mechanical shutter.

Even less sense to do it... now?  The A7 IV came out in 2021.  Why wait 4 years to release the cine equivalent?

And while I know that AI AF on the specsheet is AI Autofocus which has nothing to do with AI and everything to do with actually-useful ML, describing anything as "AI AF" automatically makes me not want it.  😉

15 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

I meant, beside being a FF camera, give it a variety of formats/gates. Wouldn't that be a jam.:)

Sort of, yes, but it's only a 24 megapixel sensor.  The resolution in super 16 mode or super 8 mode would be pretty low.  You'd be at 4k in S35, and closer to 2k in M43.

1:1 crop mode on the GH7 would be one of best right now for using S16 or Super 8 lenses.  You'd still have decent resolution and probably not be at 720p or less.

29 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

Call it the Lumix Bolex and a sister model the Lumix Bolex ND. Give it a S16, 16, 2/3, S8 and 8mm gate mode plus GH4 battery life

Ah, maybe, but I'm saying they could release this exact camera at the same price, but with a different brand/form factor and influencers would go crazy for it.  I'm not even trying to create my dream tiny 4k camera that uses my C and D mount lenses (that might be the altcinecam thingie).  😅

One thought is that if Panasonic want to charge a premium for their cameras, especially in this day and age, there's a straightforward path to it.

So Panasonic/Lumix marketing folks, if you read this, here is a free suggestion:

Panasonic were never huge in cameras until the digital age (yes, I know there were 35mm cameras and no, nobody has nostalgia for the C-D353AF or the C-D900ZM).  So find an old film camera brand that people used to love, but is no longer made.  Some of the big ones have been eaten by the competitors (e.g. Hasselblad/DJI), but the people who bought Rollei are producing junk with the name - but you could also consider someone like Bronica, Agfa, or Ansco.  Or hell, Voigtlander is all lenses now.  Maybe they want to sell bodies too.  Or for film, you could try grabbing Bell & Howell from the vultures who have been using it to sell crap - or maybe Mitchell or Aaton?  Don't think I've seen a digital Mitchell.  So let's say Mitchell.

So buy or license the beloved film camera brand.  Now tweak your SOOC colors a little bit.  It doesn't have to be a lot.  Just... enough to make the images feel a little more nostalgic to people.  I dunno, maybe make them a little browner and a little lower contrast.  I'll leave the interpretation of nostalgic up to your capable engineers.

Next, instead of a body format based on the design of a 35mm camera, go for a retro-styled look more similar to a Bolex or one of the more art deco-looking super 8 cameras.  Think less "SLR" and less "box" and think more "ellipse."

Then move away from drab product names that are just a soup of meaningless letters and numbers.

Then give a proper release to the camera without getting people jazzed up in advance for something it isn't.

When you announce the new Mitchell Fox Grandeur Digital Cinema Camera featuring the exact same feature list as the S1 II, you'll have influencers across the spectrum talking about how beautiful it is and the rich heritage of Mitchell cameras.

6 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Where are some real AF tests, except the YouTuber's head moving in and out of the frame?

 

It's definitely a fair question.  Fuji's is definitely not perfect, judging by my GFX 100 II, but it's generally usable.  That seems similar to what I've seen/heard of the S1R II and S1 II (Media Division did some pretty decent real-world tests and... they weren't outstanding)

And I'd put DJI's in a similar category, though it also requires the most comfort/familiarity, especially with the Focus Pro which uses a second camera with a second screen for control and because it's LIDAR-based, has a limited (but useful) range where focus even works at all.

They're all better than Red's, though.  Red's is in a category that I'd describe as "almost usable, but will probably break your heart if you try to rely on it."  😅

38 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Meanwhile the big irony is... Sony can't sell enough of the a1 II at 7 grand.

It has been out of stock forever.

Sure, and Fuji with the GF 100RF as well at 5 grand.  Though it's also not clear how many of them they're actually pumping out of the factory.  It doesn't seem like they're shipping in thousands upon thousands of units.

46 minutes ago, berkenboom said:

On the other hand, old MFT stuff on the second hand market is wild now. I saw an GF3, for 300 including lens.
300 was the price I paid at that time for a new one, lens included! even wilder a GF1 for 350😆

I've been seeing on YouTube that some of the influencers have been going on about how great the old/small Panasonics were.  If you want to see something really bonkers, look at current GM1 pricing - a lot of them going for about $500 in a kit with the 12-32.

Since those went so crazy, now I'm seeing some from adjacent influencers saying "Hey, everybody!  The GF* series is also really great and small and btw, some shoot 4K" so I'm not surprised they're going up now too.

You asked an easily-googled question and used phrases like "I don't pay much attention to new releases and am probably fairly behind but are there full-frame anamorphic lens options on the market just yet?"

That phrase basically screams "do my research for me," as does the follow mention of the Blazar Mantis, a 1.33x anamorphic lens with an oval aperture and no autofocus, but in the context of "I thought I heard of..." which, again, is a thing that is easily resolved by yourself with a 10 second google search for "Mantis Anamorphic."

As to the rest, lighten up, Francis.  The point of most forums isn't for people to do simple google searches for you, but (hopefully) to have more interesting discussions.  Asking things like "Does anybody have personal experience with the new Mantis anamorphics" or "Looking for experiences about the Blazar Apex autofocus anamorphic" might actually yield something interesting.

Ah, I missed that you said autofocus.

Updated: https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=1.33x+anamorphic+autofocus+full+frame

In short, yes, some exist, and no, nobody here would have any insight as to the product plans for anamorphic lens manufacturers next year.