Django

out of curiosity how is the 1080p? similar to d750 or clearer/sharper?

64 iso video I think is also worth a mention.. rather unique no?

16 hours ago, BenEricson said:

R3D seems to be doing pretty well. 

RED cameras allow you to shoot all kinds of ProRes flavours (4444, 422) & resolutions in addition to R3D raw formats.. and even so we are talking high-end cine cams which is pretty niche to start with..

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yes focus peaking in the D850 is limited to only in 1080 (which is DUMB!! You want it for 4K too), but the sheer existence of this feature means a major shift is going to happen within the Canikon duolopy. Just like what happened when the Nikon D90 arrived on the scene as the first HDSLR.

You will see all future Nikons having focus peaking, and you'll see the focus peaking improve (such as for 4K), and I bet within the next year or two we will see Canon add focus peaking to one of their DSLRs. Just like what happened with the D90, then Canon had to respond to Nikon. If the D850 didn't have focus peaking, I bet we'd need to wait an extra couple of years (or more!) before Canon would finally in its own sweet time add focus peaking to its DSLRs.

Focus peaking has been available for years on Canons via Magic Lantern. Zebras too. Canon purposely omit them from their DSLRs to upsell their EOS C line. D850 isn't going to change that fact.

2 hours ago, Eno said:

C-LOG is close to useless in a 8 bit only IMO, + it exhibits banding in the shadows (even Canon themselves caution this). MJPG is an dinosaur of a codec, it's superiority ended in 90's. + if you dare to think about the "luxury" of recording 4K externally from the 5D mk4, you don't have it...nada, niente, no...you're stuck with the very old, extremely inefficient Motion JPOG encoding...That's it, end of story!

I never said anything about sharpness, I was referring to detail or the lack of it. The so called Canon 4K is more like a 2,5K resolution wise, the FHD is as pour as in 2008 (this year Canon celebrates 10 years of unchanged "1080" quality).

Did I missed anything?

Have you ever shot with the 5D4? because it sounds like baseless erroneous assumptions you are making here.. fyi FHD has improved since the 5D3. 

As for C-Log it is far from useless.. for matching footage from other C-log cams, getting creative with grades or extending DR.. it doesn't seem to break much on the "dinosaur codec"

DPAF isn't the only advantage (it's a big one though!). The 5DIV now has C-Log with view assist. It can shoot full read-out DCI 4K. MJPEG is a high bitrate 422 codec (for some that's a plus). Wi-fi remote capability is superior to Nikons. 

3 hours ago, Eno said:

The crop factor is actually 1,75x in UHD (16:9 aspect ratio) - just horrible (an nod, the APS-C lenses do not work on the EF mount, you're stuck with FF glass on a huge crop)! The codec is very inefficient, the "4K" image (more like 2,5K actually) is very soft, high ISO is worst than on the Gh5 (in video mode), FHD is like any other Canon DSLR a pour 720p resolution full of moire and aliasing (the only exception was the 5D mk3 which was even softer). It has 0 advanced video controls but hey, Canon "must be praised" for it's dual pixel AF, to do exactly what with it if the image quality is so pour?!

The 5D mk4 deserves all the hatred, it is an expensive embarrassment video wise!

Another false statement. Canon EF-S lens aren't compatible, but third party APS-C EF mount lenses absolutely are. The Sigma 18-35mm 1.8 is a perfect pair for the 5D4 and gives a very workable range for video work.

As for the 4K image quality, I disagree. Sharpness isn't everything (and I wouldn't call the 5D4 4K very soft). As far as color sampling (422), motion, lack of artefacts etc.. the 5D4/1DC/1DX2 DCI 4K is superior to most internal 4K from the competition imo..

Camera is also now off my list. It all the sudden becomes a ultra niche camera for RAW only shooters.. that need 420 proxies ..?!

5 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Stills camera = 100 times less good than D850 (less dynamic range, less mpx, less good AF system ( and -4ev on the D850), no BSI sensor, less features like the new focus stacking,...)

Video camera = horribly not efficient codec, super high video file size for 1.7 crop (not S35 actually) and basically no video specs at all VS let's say a GH5. 

All that for a premium price tag. 

 

Anyone in this word who does not own any lens, I see 0 reason to buy a Canon 5D when looking to get FF. If you are going to shoot stills you buy the D850, if video only probably something like GH5 or A7SII and if you shoot both you will probably go to Sony. 

Sorry but this sounds like a very biased anti-Canon stance which indeed seems to be a growing trend around here.

The 5D4 is certainly not "100 times less good than D850". You cannot omit the advantage of Dual Pixel AF both for video and stills (when shooting LV).

A camera system is also more than paper specs, you've got a bunch of subjective factors to consider as well such as ergonomics, lens choice, menus, weight, color science etc..

Build quality & reliability has also been an issue with Nikon as of late with numerous recalls on their bodies. Mainly due to so much part outsourcing whereas Canon is all in-house and Made in Japan. This is a major point for professionals. (My D750 being recalled and leaving me without a camera for 3 weeks and losing work because of it was the final straw with me switching from Nikon to Canon.)

Besides not everyone needs/wants a 46MP camera and the huge files associated with that. 

As for the GH5 & A7S2 they also have their flaws, mainly terrible AF and for stills are way inferior to the 5D4.

5 hours ago, mercer said:

What exactly does a horribly "non efficient codec" entail? I mean video gets recorded, right? And it's a 4:22 codec that's easily editable on most computers, and usually the motion cadence looks great.

Okay so a 1.7 crop isn't exactly S35 but it's closer than 2x or 2.4x or 2.88x. And with the crop, a bunch of aps-c lens options open up.

I don't care about the this camera is better than that camera game. Each camera is unique to itself and none of them are perfect, but I do think the 5D4 gets a little more hatred than deserved.

By non efficient people mean the 500mbps file size which is huge for most. Also it isn't "easy editable on most computers" my €3000 2017 Macbook struggles with the files.

The upside though which indeed many seem to conveniently forget is that the codec is 422 and that the footage contains tons of information and simply looks great: thick & juicy image quality with tons of gradibility and filmic motion cadence. Like stated above it does feel like the closest to RAW. 

I also feel the 5D4 gets a ton of hate when things like MJPEG never seemed to be an issue for these same people on the 1DC & 1DXII..

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Um, it's not about perfection... It's about paying for a full frame camera and expecting a FULL FRAME image!

And the codec is inexcusable.

Depends what type of shooter you are. Personally I like shooting FF for stills, but prefer S35 for video. 

So this type of hybrid config works.. for me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there always seems to be some kind of compromise when shooting both stills & video on a body.

I'm with you on the MJPEG codec, number one thing holding me back on the 5D4. 

Really hope Sony will hurry up with the A7R/S III now that Canikon/Panasonic/Fuji have laid out their refreshes.

Personally I'd still favour a 5D IV over the D850 because of: full readout 4K, Dual Pixel AF, Canon Log, 422 codec, skin tones, EF mount. 

Yeah MJPEG is inefficient & there is a 1.7x crop. No camera is perfect I guess.

In the end D850 won't be a game changer. Nikon users will upgrade to it.. and Canon/Sony/Panasonic users will stick to their guns..

3 hours ago, gethin said:

Our initial impression is that the video is pixel-binned, rather than being resolved then downsampled (oversampling), but we'll be checking on this as part of the review process. This risks lowering the level of detail capture and increases the risk of moiré, though it's a better solution than line-skipping. There also seemed to be significant rolling shutter, but again these are only first impressions from a camera running non-final firmware.

damn that kind of sucks.. maybe you'll have to switch to DX mode to get sharpest 4K (like on A7R2)? 

but biggest con to me is there seems to be no video AF improvement..

These past 8 months I've used the XT2 for pro video use more then any other camera in my arsenal ( A7S2, C100, 5D3 ). In fact I have sold ALL my other cameras and currently only use the XT2.

The booster grip is of course essential. With a cheap Nikon adapter I'm using all my Nikon FF glass again and am actually getting better results in my opinion then with Fuji glass (albeit manual focus control).

Now I am still in the market for a second cam, which may very well be the D850 as I'm missing the full frame look..

Thanks for your input. Yeah it's quite a shame about the horrible rolling shutter on A6500. totally ruins it for me.

 Color science and white balance is definitely tricky with all these Sony's.

On the A7S I had, found myself always having to adjust RGB values in post to get normal colours back from footage, really annoying process compared to my Canons & XT2 that nail it SOOC.

Now about motion cadence, so you feel the FS5 isn't very cinematic?  does it offer 23.976 / 24p? very odd that there is no shutter angle option either.. that's just plain goofy on a pro video cam of that level..

I'm still interested in the FS5 though as a few are starting to pop up on second hand market and I'm starting to get cold feet about the C200 (lack of midrange codec is super disappointing at that price point and super slow mo seems super soft)

Important question I never hear about, how is the FS5's AF with native Sony lenses?  

On 8/2/2017 at 11:31 AM, Oliver Daniel said:

 

 

The A6500 beats the FS5 raw to ProRes ProRes image in 4k. Not so much in 1080p. 

 

 

would you care to expand on this. I'm a bit shocked by this. is the FS5 4k really that inferior?!

and so in your opinion the 4K raw to Prores via inferno isn't worth the hassle versus the internal XAVC codec?

also how would you compare the 4K image to the A7SII?

New: the D850 LCD will have twice the resolution of the D810

New: slo-mo full HD 120fps video

New: the SD slot will support UHS-II

New: improved LiveView split-screen display

New: improved silent shooting mode

New: improved battery life

New: lighter than the D810

Read more: https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/01/additional-nikon-d850-specifications.aspx/#ixzz4oXaQLgFn

I have no horse in the race either as I'm currently on Fuji XT2 and sold both my Canon bodies ( 5D3 & C100 ) and am not sure what I will replace them with yet..

For what it's worth 5D4's 1080 is much sharper then 5D3's mushy 1080. DSLR's OLPF will always render softer then mirrorless though obviously..

looks like I struck a nerve with GH5 users.. I was only recommending 5D4 vs 1DX2.

..but FYI 5D4 shoots stills and 1080p at full frame which is a giant plus imo. It's 4K crop is close enough to Super35 that using a Sigma 18-35mm 1.8 made for APS-C works fine but of course it's still far off from FF look. That being said I think GH5 & 5D4 are targeted at very different users. no clear "winner" they're just different.

Yeah I find an EVF or better yet hybrid viewfinder is a very interesting asset for still photography.. but for video I find it over rated. Tilt/swivel/touchscreen LCD, external monitor or even remote phone/tablet viewing are where it's at for me these days..

There are dozens of videos online showcasing GH5's low light / high iso performances. 

.. wether it's good/poor depends on what you are comparing it to I guess. compared to GH3/GH4 it's fantastic. Compared to FF Sony/Canon.. not so good.

5 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Ok all clear now. The 13 MBP has a 2 core i5 and is probably not powerful enough for decoding in real-time MJPG. The h264 is HW decoding optimized (for playback) on most CPUs so even an Atom based cpu can playback 4k 25p in real-time. My i5 surface pro 3 can playback 4k 30p h264 with no issue at all. Editing is another story where h264 lgop are a pain. New Resolve Studio (paid version) has HW decoding for h264 but only on windows and only with nvdia cards. 
I would try still Resolve (free version) beta 14, it faster than 12.5 and it may work. On various 4 core i7 notebook that I have tested is very fast with MJPG file both real-time playback at 60p and scrubbing.

Actually maxed out 13 MBP's use 7th gen dual core i7's.. far from quad core but still I've been pretty surprised at what it can handle.. except MJPG. 

I use Resolve beta 14 for transcoding & grading. I usually hire a video editor for paid jobs so mostly I just want to review footage.. try some graded looks etc..

Sadly MJPG is a no go for me on my $2900 2017 notebook setup..

4 hours ago, DBounce said:

The Canon colors are great out of camera, but the pseudo flat profiles can disappointing in post. For this reason I often opt to capture as near as possible to final grade baked in. The GH5 is far more flexible in post. Codec size is a challenge in some regards, but if you work with proxy files in PP or FCPX it is not that bad. Lowlight is far better on the 1DXMK2. Organic and forgiving upto 12800 in a pinch. Contrast this to the 1600 iso useable range on the GH5. Detail is better on the GH5, but that is not to say that the 1DXMk2 has bad IQ... It has great IQ, but as a filmmaker's tool, it falls short for lacking many features that are expected in such an application. All the GH5 lacks is DPAF and lowlight. 

to be honest with you unless you're primarily a still action / sport photographer.. I kinda fail to see the point in investing in a 1DX2. At that price point there are so many better video cam options out there. Even the 5D4, now with log support & HDR video at half the price.. and of course Sony, BlackMagic... GH5.. meh 2.2x crop is just too severe for my taste.. poor lowlight.. AF.. and sucky at stills. I do get it's a godsend to some types of shooters thanks to 10-bit 422 in DSLR form factor but yeah it's on the other side of the spectrum of the 1DX2 that's for sure!

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Hi Django, did you try using Resolve, because if you have the 15'' 4 core MBP it should work fine.

On Windows on similar/same CPU 7700HQ I have no problem playing back with resolve and media player classic. It works great even at 4k 60p 1DxII. Mine has a better GPU but for only playback it should not matter, grading could be limited but if you have the 4GB Vram version it should work ok...:

 

Got a maxed out 13" MBP..  but zero problem reading 4K codecs from Fuji, Sony, BMD etc. Only MJPG causes severe drop outs. Less so when editing, I'm talking just playback using preview or quicktime.

"Grading, I did not grade the Canon footage. I think the Canon footage is best colored in camera using a picture profile. I did however grade the bejesus out of the GH5 footage... and it did not break." 

"Here is my intermediate conclusion/not conclusion: The GH5 is going to surpass my 1DXMk2 for video. It captures sharper, more detailed and more gradable footage."

Curious, how do you reach to that conclusion, when you haven't tried grading the Canon footage?

From my experience, the 500mbps 422 MJPEG files are pretty damn gradable. GH5 may be 10-bit (vs 8)  but the extra file bitrate should narrow that gap.

As for the "sharper more detailed" well that's the optical low pass filter on the 1DX2 making 4K a tad softer, but I don't find that too problematic (gives less video feel)

Now of course GH5 has VLog and 1DXII doesn't, but there are a bunch of downloadable Canon log profiles out there.

Personally I'm warming up to the 5DIV now that's it got official C-log support. With the 18-35 Sigma the crop factor shouldn't be a problem either.

Biggest downside to the MJPEG codec is the file size. My maxed out 2017 MBP Touchbar struggles to even read the files. Meaning everything will need transcoding..

Poor Nikon.. specs aren't even out & people are already burying them!

Videographers seem to have moved on to mirrorless, but most of the pro still shooters I know are still firmly rooted in DSLR systems.

From lens choice to battery, ergonomics, weather sealing, AF, OVF, Flash.. etc all reasons why DSLR might still have bright days ahead of them..

Also Nikon may be dependant on Sony for sensors but the result is usually better DR then Canon. 

If they can just manage full read out 4K with minimum to zero crop factor.. and perhaps a workable live View AF, they'll have easily beat Canon's best offering in that segment.

Although my guess is the video centric body will be the D750 follow-up..

48 minutes ago, mercer said:

Exactly, I've been wondering why people do that to DSLRs as well, let alone with an iPhone. We are granted such freedom with the digital revolution, why treat the work like Hollywood filmmakers do?

DSLRs/Mirrorless are usually multi purpose cameras such as for: shooting stills for a wedding, run & gun shoulder mount, interview monopod, product commercial on slider, music video on gimbal, narrative work fully rigged up on sticks etc.. a DSLR/mirrorless can be great to cover all these scenarios while remaining affordable/portable.

Now smartphones as pro tools I'm not yet convinced. Gondry did it as a challenge and of course for the cash since Apple paid for it. The resulting film is quite mediocre on several levels imo. Personally, the only reason I'd use a phone instead of anything else would be because it's the only device I have on me or is allowed. The good old best camera is the one you've got on you adage..

I do see potential for wireless monitoring, remote triggering, possibly uncompressed recording etc

On 7/13/2017 at 5:40 PM, DPC said:

Except that when you have rigged up the phone you loose all the advantages linked to its size. I mean, if I'm going to add a Beastgrip Pro + DOF adapter + a Canon DSLR lens, why not just use a "real" camera? 

..and when you rig up a DSLR/mirrorless with cage, handle, rods, matt box, monitor/recorder etc.. why not just use a "real" video cam? same argument.. 

17 hours ago, DPC said:

But have you seen how that iPhone was kitted out and the amount of people involved ?

Isn't that the whole point? Rig an Osmo & an app like Filmic Pro and  these latest-gen 4K phones can be used in a pro environment.. and open up new creative possibilities like the DSLR revolution did a decade ago..