John Matthews

What about the GH5s for dual iso low light?

LX10 in TM700 body with 10bit 422 4K up to 60p would be perfect. @John Matthews I think small sized camcorders were used to be called palmcorders.
So, yes, 10bit palmcorders with 2/3 or 1" sensors, HLG, NDs and with solid manual operating such as focus ring and physical buttons for the essential parameters like iso, aperture, shutter and color temperature.
I still like the size of a HPX171, which is still much smaller than an EX1 and kind of a pretty camera like the legendary DVX100. So will try that one some time. Mike Krumlauf is always fun to listen to. Such an old school guy with a love for cameras and an impressive mullet. 🙂  @Matt Kieley

Those cameras are a bit too big for me. I'm really hoping for a small 2/3 inch sensor with modern codecs and frame rates. I'd like sub 400g but happy with sub 500g. I'm thinking an enclosed LX10 lens with more reach and a sensor, processor, and battery slapped on the back. Something tells me that it should be possible.

I was recently considering getting an HPX170 for a project, although I couldn't really justify spending the money. But there are some good videos on youtube demonstrating what handling the footage with modern upscaling and color grading software can do for cameras like it.
It seems the majority people still actively using these cameras are Skate videographers.

With all the digital standards out there it's unfortunate that no consumer camera manufacturer developed the hot shoe as a modular communication standard.  We could have had add-on EVFs, microphones and audio adapters, monitors, timecode boxes, etc.  
The argument that they wouldn't have sold becomes quite different if you think of the potential sales of accessories over 10 or 20 years of cameras that supported them.  Imagine if you could buy an adapter that mounted into the hot-shoe and gave two or three hot-shoes across the top of the camera (maybe only to the left to avoid the dials) and you could put whatever you wanted in there.  USB was released in 1996, almost 30 years ago with 12Mbps, and by 2008 it had 5Gbps, so it's not like the technology in, say, 2004 wasn't there yet.

I've been watching the TV show M*A*S*H (1972-1983) and I'm finding it really interesting:
The storytelling trumps the image quality, and it only takes a few seconds to stop looking at the image and start paying attention to the content It was shot on 35mm film, but was before colour grading, so the image is about as pure as you get The image is rather drab in comparison to any image that has been colour graded Whenever they cut to a shot that fades out or does a freeze frame the image degrades significantly in resolution and the colours and contrast shift significantly, presumably because it had to go through another generation to add the effect, so the quality and resolution limits are no joke However, having said that, the skin-tones and the high-DR external shots filmed in full direct sun are world class, even compared to the flagship cameras of today from ARRI.
It makes it obvious that ARRI are in the business of making cameras with as many film-quality pixels as possible, and everyone else is in the business of making cameras with as many pixels as possible and letting quality fall where it may.

Yup; body, grip and lens, all used from MPB!
 

What I'd like to see is a tiny OLED viewfinder that would connect with HDMI and 12volt DC. There are a few nice EVFs that connect to proprietary hot shoes such as the Canon EVF-DC2, FUJIFILM EVF-GFX, Sigma EVF-11, Sony FDA-EVM1K, etc. however they aren't able to be used with other cameras.
I'd like to see something like this, or an adaptor from the hot shoe connectors to HDMI and D-tap. Then if you have a cinema camera you're not left with only huge EVFs (which are really just small monitors with a loupe.)
The one that seems to have this potential is the Sigma EVF-11. In pictures it shows what looks like a USB-C plug, two pins, then what might be a micro-HDMI. It might be possible for there to be an adaptor to use this.

I think I gonna try out some 3 x 1/3" CCD magic some time with a Panasonic HPX 171 or 151, both writing to cards, p2 cards and 8bit 422 100mbit DvcproHD the former, sd and 8bit 420 25mbit Avchd the latter. They would function as a Dvx100 Andromeda substitute:) @Matt Kieley Both are sporting less than perfect 1080p resolution and higher framerates at 50/60p in 720p or 1080i. For best image quality of the bunch it would be a HPX250 with perfect 1080p even at 50/60p, also sporting a 3 x 1/3" sensor design plus 10bit 100mbit 422. No CCD magic though. 3 x CCD and perfect HD with high bit rates comes in big shoulder cameras only. But then some 2/3" calibers. And a Varicam among them. Would like to find out which one is the smallest of these biggies. This thread has the potential for a perfect nerd cave. Great place to be. 🙂

That was super-cool! Yes. the grade was too green and would have been way better with "sunny look" to it, but the shots themselves were very nice; clearly filmed by someone with a decent eye. I saw one for about 250 euros. Detail is close to 4k and seemingly shoots above its weight.

After owning a variety of consumer/prosumer camcorders (starting with VHS-C in 1995, then several DV then HDV), I skipped DVD-based ones and decided that the memory-card based ones (that I could afford) were getting too small and light to hand-hold with reasonable stability. Also viewfinders were becoming rare other than on the higher-end camcorders.
Having noticed that reasonable video was starting to appear as a feature in 'photo' cameras, I tried a Pana TZ7/ZS3 compact, then a Sony HX9V compact and Pana FZ100 superzoom. Decided that I preferred the form-factor/handling so  moved on to a Pana G3 MILC - nice and compact, good to hold, with a decent viewfinder, video, audio and stills. Upgraded after a while to a G6 with 14-140mm lens (probably my all-time favourite lens) - much larger sensor than any consumer camcorder but still a fairly compact setup for something with a 10:1 zoom lens.
As I'm very much a hybrid shooter, I prefer the m43 'compact MILC' form-factor (and the IBIS). The only 'icing on the cake' that I'd like is a quality power-zoom lens with a decent range - the (now obsolete) Oly 12-50 is about as close as m43 has ever got to that.
So no, I wouldn't buy a 'camcorder' form-factor camera again.
(When I look at some of my old VHS-C or DV footage, it just reminds me of how far consumer/prosumer video capture has improved over time...from less-than-SD resolution, interlaced, noisy, smudgy video to pristine 50p/60p UHD from a pocket-sized camera - wow!)

Ha, considered that very thing recently, ie, having that camcorder in a purely static role, but then came to the conclusion, I may as well stick with my S1H with battery grip (3+ hours so far more than my needs) and with the 70-200mm f4 on it.
Massive overkill for I need it to do, which is essentially ceremonies & speeches, but based on trade in and then purchase of a used camcorder, makes no sense, so sticking with the static S1H paired with roaming S5ii approach for my video needs.
For 2024 anyway. We'll see at the end of the season as there are various other options I might consider going forward...

Definitely agree about the bulk of an external monitor.
I've been bouncing between my OG BMPCC (P2K) and BMMCC (M2K!) for years now, and one of the biggest challenges of the M2K is how large the screen makes the rig, even though I have the Ikan 3.5" monitor:
it requires a separate battery the mounting isn't slimline at all and so the monitor is quite far from a camera (compared to a flip or tilt screen) the HDMI cable takes it a very large step into "we are the Borg" territory I've used camcorders in the past, and also have the XC10 which is a camcorder in all but body-design, but my GX85 + 12-35/2.8 setup is what I use as my main camera now and I use it like a camcorder, so I get most of the benefits:
It looks like a little P&S (because it is) so I invoke the dorky Dad vibe I'm planning to also get the 14-140mm F3.5-5.6 lens to pair with it which will give it a similar all-in-one lens The Dual IS gives it equivalent levels of stabilisation It's limited to 8-bit 709 style images, but these look pretty good in reality, so has a similar limitation but also strength in that regard too It lets me stop thinking about the camera and start thinking about what is in front of it

Theoretically I agree, but in practice no box cameras have built the required ecosystem of accessories to create compact camcorder ergonomics. The two missing pieces are are the side handle, and the monitor. There are plenty of "dumb" side handles, but to match camcorder ergonomics it needs lots of buttons. The FS7 handle with its multiple function buttons, joystick, etc. is a starting point. There are very few good monitor options under 5", and you need bulky batteries or lots of cables. By that time you've got a cinema rig.
We could really do with some more open standards for camera controls, video, and audio. Lots of vendor lock these days in terms of accessories.

I have a lot more to say about this... but only have a few minutes to reply. I think I wrote a similar post years ago and one of my arguments for a camcorder is that when you are shooting a zero budget, guerrilla style film, you need to look as inconspicuous as possible and nothing says dorky dad more than a camcorder... nobody would pay you any mind whatsoever.
Now I could be content with ProRes HQ but being a raw video only shooter, I would much rather have raw.
I love the form factor of camcorders... but I also still prefer DSLRs to mirrorless so I'm basically a dinosaur in today's market.

Oh, I'm dreaming of even more. I'm thinking of internal raw recording in a camcorder. (It would likely have to be uncompressed raw because of Red's patent but if I'm dreaming here it would be ProResRaw and/or BRaw.)
I'm thinking of the type of narrative filmmaking where you have actors and all but the filming situation is such that you don't have much control over the setting (or much time with the location). You need to set up fast and get the shots and move on. A camcorder is perfect for that. It would need some type of timecode jam sync for any external audio recorder(s). 
 

I understand.
It's a shame bridge cameras didn't really take off...
The Sony RX10ii I had was great with its f2.8 24-200mm zoom and the current (?) iv goes up to 600mm and has s-log.
But they don't seem to have captured the mass market appeal for whatever reason.
And speaking of the digital Bolex, that never worked out but there is a big market for 'retro', - just look at stuff such as the Fuji X100 and Nikon Zf, - folks love 'em.
I'm all for modern hi tech spec in olde schoole body styles and it's a shame there isn't much in the 'camcorder' market.

Modular.
That’s my answer!
Start with a cube and build everything off that.
Want a battery grip, add that option.
Want a side (either or both) or top handle, add it.
External SSD, top, side or below, you choose.
External monitor, top or rear.
Some kind of rifle stock? Add it.
Then if the camcorder thing is your jam, a power zoom.
The only thing about the available box style cameras is the lack of IBIS. Are there any?
I really wanted to build a hybrid set up off the Lumix BS1H but quickly discovered that for hybrid use, too many compromises. I could probably live without the IBIS as OIS lenses are available, but the number available already limits things massively.
Add the monitor OK, but then no mech shutter which with Z8/Z9 sophistication is OK, but not with 4-5 year old Lumix.
Ditto Sigma FP. Not quite a box, but so close and yet so far from my needs which to this day, are still best served by the MILC.
I really would like to see more innovation in this regard rather than ‘spec’ and the MP arms race.

Maybe it’s my photographer roots, but I am the other way and don’t like the camcorder. Never have and I have had several.
The best of these was the Sony FD-AX700 which are still holding their price well on the used market.
I built a system around that same 1” sensor with the camcorder static for all my long duration stuff, the RX10ii ‘bridge’ camera as my main unit, plus the RX100v as my literally in my pocket 3rd unit.
The output was OK, but ultimately was not overly keen on it and found that for my kind of work, not robust enough, especially if shooting in low light.
And as for the handling, the camcorder I always found the most awkward in hand. But each to their own and all that! 

I've been saying this for years. The DVX100 had the best ergonomics/size of any camera I've ever owned and was a joy to shoot. And it had a global shutter. 

I loved old camcorder ergonomics. Large battery on the back, flip out screen on the side, nice slot for your hand on the right. The Sony NEXVG900 was a neat concept, but I guess it didn't sell because it was a one off.

TM700 should be dirt cheap and tons of fun. I would love a compact 3 sensor 2/3" or one sensor 1 inch camera with a good 422 codec. Both won't materialize I assume, the former not by any margin at all. Anyway, 3 1/4" fun and HD beauty with the TM700. A bit green but still a well done video:
 

I inherited my grandfather's 16mm Bell & Howell last summer. It was a great piece of equipment back in the day. I filmed my daughter on a miniDV camcorder and this week I picked up a Panasonic VX980. It made me suddenly consider ditching everything else as it's so much fun to shoot on with its glorious 400g body, auto features, and 31-626mm equiv. (1800mm digital is usable in 1080p) lens. I might find myself wanting more later, but for now I'm loving it. Amazing, for an "old" Panasonic, it has great AF. There's no real fussing about with Picture Profiles either. You just open the screen and record 1080p 50fps at 50mbps. Shooting inside? Sure it's noisy but cleans up nicely with Topaz. I just throw Film Convert on it and it looks great, with a clear, sharp, rather detailed image with nice color.
Anyone else shooting these?

I agree. There's an ergonomic thing with camcorders that I'd like to see done again but with raw or something.  I still shoot with an eight year old Sony HD camcorder because it's so easy to use and produces beautiful results. 5-axis image stabilization, 20x zoom lens, 5.1 stereo mic, etc. The only drawback to it is that it records to H.264 only. I had a wish that they would make the same thing but that it would record in some type of raw format. Storage is so cheap nowadays that they could put in a 1 or 2TB SSD and it would still be affordable and hold a lot of footage. I would not hesitate to shoot a feature narrative on such a thing if it existed.

I inherited my grandfather's 16mm Bell & Howell last summer. It was a great piece of equipment back in the day. I filmed my daughter on a miniDV camcorder and this week I picked up a Panasonic VX980. It made me suddenly consider ditching everything else as it's so much fun to shoot on with its glorious 400g body, auto features, and 31-626mm equiv. (1800mm digital is usable in 1080p) lens. I might find myself wanting more later, but for now I'm loving it. Amazing, for an "old" Panasonic, it has great AF. There's no real fussing about with Picture Profiles either. You just open the screen and record 1080p 50fps at 50mbps. Shooting inside? Sure it's noisy but cleans up nicely with Topaz. I just throw Film Convert on it and it looks great, with a clear, sharp, rather detailed image with nice color.
Anyone else shooting these?