HelsinkiZim

I am working in a month long project where I am helping young offenders learn about the basics of digital filmmaking. 

The end result is a music video they are making themselves.

I have been using the gh4 as my documentary cam, and it has been superb. We even did some exercises with the micro Cinema Camera, BUT...

... every example of an underground music video they love has something predominantly in common - beautiful colours (saturated), full frame and razor thin DOF 

We know this as the Canon look. They know it as high quality.

So I am going to give the people what they want and rent a Canon for the shoot.

Which would you recommend for this purpose, on a budget.

I have the sigma 18 35, tokina 11 16 and Samyang 35. Should I get a lens too or should I rent a 70d and skip the full frame?

Is Mark II better than III?

C100?

Raw on a rental?

Anyways, appreciate any advice...

Hey, has anyone here actually flown to another country to get a camera and take a free vacation? Some of the US/ EU price differences are the price of a transatlantic flight...

3 hours ago, Liam said:

@Cinegain Sssssssort of. Sounds to me more like someone has a serious passion for running and they may be interested in help.. you did cross country in high school. Would it help them at all for you to tell them how to run? Can you train the next usain bolt on that? Are you also even ignoring that their shoelaces are tied wrong?

I learned what I needed to be comfortable with a camera (admittedly more than some people need to know) through google in the course of like 4 years, and there are concrete things I wish I was handed right away. Everything about story is subjective at best

 thanks again for your input. But I have to disagree that storytelling in the film universe is subjective. There are clearly defined rules when writing for the screen. These rules need to be mastered before they are broken.

Finding out that there are actually rules is more important than knowing the rules themselves.

Most people only feel liberated once they feel confined.

Once they know what chains need to be broken then they can get to work.

I feel that unfortunately filmmaking still lends itself to mystification unlike for example painting whereby it was demystified centuries ago. A painter has no illusions that they must master formal technique before they can experiment.

Edit: yes you could point to the British movement led by Damien hirst or similar, but they were all formally trained in theory at the least.

Most filmmakers with great ideas never pick up a camera because they feel that's some divine inspiration is what makes a film connect with an audience.

However it seems this conversation gearing towards who has a right to tell someone what and how. With that argument i refer back to hertzog. If you feel you have something  creative you want to share with someone else and something unique to say, you do not need permission to do so. 

The act of falling on your ass will teach you more about where your knowledge is lacking. Sitting at home and waiting until you feel you are a master of The Craft before you go out and communicate your knowledge will Ensure that you never actually leave your bedroom.

Even Tom antos started somewhere...

Jealousy is a green 2-headed beast. 

I know this cause he just walked in after I saw the pics...

14 hours ago, Cinegain said:

That used to be a pretty nice course back in the day. ~ https://www.creativelive.com/courses/vince_laforet including students who end up shooting stuff as well and learn and review what's right and wrong. The concept is there.

And indeed like I mentioned:

 

Yeah, its not a new idea - but I was more inspired by Born into Brothels and I cant give the details of the project in genereral but it is a month long project more similar to what Zana did with the homeless children...

3 hours ago, Liam said:

I don't want to repeat myself too much, but I rarely enjoy people telling me how to tell a story.. they would have to be amazing at storytelling for that advice to matter. And the ones who know how to tell a story often say to figure it out for yourself or they make up advice that they don't even personally follow (and it ends up being a million different, opposing methods). "Story is important" is a fine lesson I suppose, or "This is what I do", but generally for people who want to make films I think the technical basics are actually where you should start. They're already authors, they just don't know how to use their pens. Either that or just flood them with filmmakers they should watch the films of and interviews etc. Or not even that. One of my favorite filmmakers mainly just reads a bunch of non fiction about space apparently. That's why it's so hard to give advice. Everyone is and should be different. Teach them the concrete stuff, and for everything else, just keep them interested/excited/exploring

Also, I forgot to list sound in my original topics. Sound.

Yep, we covered sound. Genereally what I was summising is that - theory indoors, tech in the field...

oook, so everything went... well, ok. Maybe I am being hard on myself, which I sometimes am, but there are things I would do different and it may be useful for any of you that want to try and package something like this for your own businesses.

Firstly, I took the advice of many of you and focused on storytelling to begin with. We had a generel discussion about the different types of story structures and then watched trailers from their favorite films and discussed what kind of structure(s) the films were trying to follow. I found that some films mix a couple of structures, and it was a very useful excersise for me too. That was fun!

However (secondly), eyes will glaze over if you get to specific about the technical aspects. If I could do it again I would just hand them one piece of paper with a list of maybe 10 golden rules, that they could research in their own time if the wanted to... maybe with some youtube links to related tutorials etc. That list would include my top-tip of doing a 'fast' check before pressing record (focus, aperture, shutter speed, temperature). Maybe even a few Herzog quotes and tips on headroom, law of 3rds, etc.

But I wouldn't talk about it at the table (I even had a doll set up and did excersises)... I would just get outside as soon as possible and let them shoot. (edit: ...again, many of you said this too and I can confirm you were spot on)

I realised this and shifted gear to getting them to write a simple story based on the story structures we discussed, and I was so suprised at how creative everyone was once I gave up my feeling of wanting to control everything.

We went out and I worked camera and they told me what to shoot, and they played different roles. Everyone got into this exercise and it should have been at the forefront of the workshop, not at the end. What I found is that when out and about, you can relay all the tech information with context and its great to see how they see their mistakes during the edit, and it then sinks in. I was super proud when one client actually said 'hmm, I think the iso was too high for that shot' as he pointed to the grain.

So, I would advise - have a storytelling basics workshop and then get everyone out to film something and give extra details to those who want to know more. Keep it simple.

I think I am going to explore this further as I am sensing a lot of interest in this sort of approach, and feel it could be good for corporate team building exercises and schools/ organisations. My plan is to invest in some phones like the Xperia M5 where you can control settings, and make the seminar about how to make your own films with your phone. Thinking, thinking, thinking...

Anyways, thanks for all your advice folks and please ask more questions if you need more info!

Here is a screenshot of my story notes, we didnt get to the rest (tech and lighting) and you all know the stuff anyways...

7 hours ago, Dan Wake said:

I'm soory for that, did you made also all the masterclass assigments? I'm reading the peregrine then I will need to write 20 pages inpired from it (it's my first assigment).

This masterclass is looking really cool to me.

Maybe check these out first before paying as Liam is suggesting its opinion based, and these youtube videos are full of those...

9 hours ago, Liam said:

camera - sensor size, focal length, aperture, shutter speed, frame rate, iso, white balance, codec, log. Not that they need the best in any of these, but they should know what they are

Camera movement - handheld, tripod, pan, tilt, stabilizer, crane

some lighting - point out natural lighting can often work for low budget but great looking footage and that iso isn't the saving grace

editing - hard to cover every editor, maybe the simplest intro to how an edit works in premiere vs avid since the others seem to slightly mimic from there. Maybe imovie or YouTube's editor if that's what they all have access to

Color wheels, curves

screenplay formatting - Celtx, I have a google docs format I could send you if you want to go that way, or just basic elements of a script.. they don't need it to look nice

Maybe just show them some film clips and how the filmmaker told stories with editing, camera work etc. The Graduate has tons of great examples of the basics being used in a powerful way, for instance. Telephoto lens manipulating perspective when he's running to the church, some interesting zooms, the quick edits and framing when ben sees mrs robinson naked for the first time, shot reverse shots, plenty of loooong takes. Encourage them to study their favorite filmmakers.

Clips from good looking or entertaining films shot with minimal everything. Kendy Ty, Tangerine, This is John (the $3 short film), first episode of it's always sunny in Philadelphia (before the pilot), 

If they can draw, encourage them to look at animation and see if they want to give it a shot. This is just a more personal thing.. interesting though. Something like Home Movies or Cyanide and Happiness could be very doable for some of those teens (with some work), and can definitely tell a story

Solid topics here and confirmed what I was thinking about keeping it simple. Thanks for the advice!

Okay, still working on my notes but so far here are the topics I am going to cover... tonight I am gathering reference material and diagrams. Any suggestions would be grand, I will share the finished document with you all in case it may help some of you do something similar in future. I will also give my thoughts on what worked and what didn't later in the week. The kids will have access to my company equipment for the exercises - GH4, Micro Cinema Camera, Shark slider, iFootage Mini Jib, Zhiyun Crane and other stuff.

Camera

What do you know about cameras?

Resolution HD and 4K

What makes a camera a good camera? - dynamic range, moire, resolution, noise colour, control, Different cameras for different jobs

Links to cheap and good cameras

i.F.A.S.T. (iso, focus, aperture, shutter speed and temperature) Doll Exercises, Private Ryan opener viewing, relationships - aperture, iso and shutter diagrams

Light

Importance of light

Colour temperatures (daylight and tungsten and compensation)

3 point lighting (screenshots of build up - excersice on doll)

Controlling light (working with natural light i.e. the sun, reflector and diffusion excersise)

Composition

LS, MS, CU, XCU illustrations

Law of 3rds illustration

Headroom illustration

Zero Horizon illustration

Depth of Field illustration

Breaking the rules (dutch angle, low angle power shot) illustrations, google interesting shot compositions

Exercises in above

Movement and support

Tripod

Rig

Slider

Steadicam/ Gimbal

Jib

Exercises and shot examples from youtube i.e. screenrant, andyax, etc

Never shoot handheld (show rolling shutter jello, jitters)

Cheap phone solutions (links to selfy stick jib, cage, mini slider)

5 hours ago, Dan Wake said:

I suggest try to get inspiration from this masterclass. will give you many ideas https://www.masterclass.com/classes/werner-herzog-teaches-filmmaking

Hi, last xmas I watched all of Werner Herzogs youtube content (having been watching his films for the last 10 years), so I know his methodology pretty well. I love how he suggests that you should get a job as a bouncer at a strip-club rather than go to film school and how you don't need to ask permission to film anything these days - I am going to quote him of both of these comments...

Thanks!

2 hours ago, Liam said:

sorry, yes I did finish the course, but I skipped most of the homework. I did a writing assignment - something like write a script for an hour without stopping to think, if possible, just let it flow (but I didn't listen to classical music during, like he said to). I had to let go of the idea that he was the authority instead of just a guy who has definitely made some good films, because that was stressing me out, and I would never have gotten past lesson two.

I think I am going to take that course, and Aaron Sorkins - have you taken that one Liam?

I am giving a workshop (yikes!) to a couple of teenagers about inexpensive filmmaking and I wanted to ask you all what topics you would talk about if you were to cover the very basics of teaching someone to go out and shoot for the first time with their phones or DSLRs on zero budget.

What kind of advice would you give a first time shooter (above and beyond story)?

I have my some takes on the matter, but would appreciate some fresh views that fill in the gaps in my knowledge.

10 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

im going to say this without sounding like a purist typical forum dwelling asshole

IF YOU CAN DO IT IN CAMERA THEN DO IT IN CAMERA!!!! :-D

Light has literally an infinite amount of variables before it hits the lens,passes through the filter, the sensor then the 14bit raw conversion. When you do it in post your doing a computer generated idea of what diffused lighting looks like after a 10 or 8 bit conversion.

Get a filter and test it out and you will see it looks infinitely better than what you can get in post 

Got it, thanks! Not assholly at all.  Perfect argument: 

Bullet point... benefit... close.

How it should be always:-)

Edit: if you worked for Tiffen you  would have just made a sale! 

4 hours ago, Lintelfilm said:

To chip in to the diffusion chat, I have a few tiffen HDTVFX and UltraContrast filters I used a lot with my gh4. I must try them on my XC10. Personally I like these two because they don't add the mist look to highlights but still take the digital edge off. The only thing I don't like is the ghosting they create with in-frame light sources. That's the only reason they're not on my lenses 24/7. I like No.2 strength best.

Have you tried their plugin diffusers? 

Is there a major difference when using them on the  lens?

Would love to know... 

However,  looking at their plugin prices it might be cheaper going physical. But as far as end results go?

Lens regain. Period. Wireless aputure and focus control. Keep the dongle around your neck, in your pocket or clamp it as a handle on your rig or tripod handle (clamp included). 10 hours of  continuos  batterry life. I have been using it for 3 months on gh4 and micro cinema camera. Oh, and its a speedbooster to. Gh4 + regain and transmitter work  on zhiyun crane or similar with tokina 11 16 or native 12 35 or similar. 

I never intend on looking back.

Just looking forward to upgrading  to the newest  version with  a remote controlled nd filter. 

I am surprised it is not in every mft kit bag, but maybe it has some drawbacks I havent seen yet that would make it unsuitable for certain jobs where ectra crew need something to do. I dunno...

Edit: however, do not buy  a huwei p8 lite, I cant control the beast when typing. Maybe its me... less gear, new phone.  Next months plan.

2 hours ago, Lintelfilm said:

Baassiilllll!

Sybillll...

Selling my steadycam system after deciding to settle on the Zhiyun Crane.

It is great for a fully rigged out dslr or even much heavier cameras like a Red One. With the arm and vest you feel no weight and your steps are dampened.

Everything in perfect working order, used only a couple of times.

Asking for 110€ for the HD-5000 (w. transport bag and table clamp for balancing)
New: https://www.amazon.de/Movofilms-HD-5000-Stabilizer-Release-MF-HD5-QT/dp/B016Q2QNV0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476555483&sr=8-1&keywords=hd5000+steadicam

and 200€ for the Arm (w. transport bag) and Vest.

New: https://www.amazon.de/Flycam-Comfort-Vest-5000-Flycam3000/dp/B00D3GT2Y8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1476555577&sr=8-2&keywords=flycam+steadycam+arm+and+vest

So if you want them both - 300€.

Will ship to EU and postage will be added. I would estimate postage to be around 30€ from experience, but if you are interested I will find out exactly.

PM please as I dont check here as often as I would like! Then I will get an email so I can respond sharpish.

Here is good ol' Antos on the subject

Sorry, wrong thread by mistake, can it be moved or should (can) I delete it?

6 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I guess I see what you're talking about - the image stuttering or whatnot - but I've never seen a test like this before, where the camera is frantically swinging around in a different direction every fraction of a second or so. I would try to move the camera more smoothly and not disorient the viewer with an excess of camera movement, unless you are preparing to make a horror film.   If the motors are making unusual sounds, I'd contact Zhiyun for service or replacement, or, if not, make arrangements to return the gimbal to the seller. The motors should not make any audible noise in upright or inverted mode.

Sounds great! So are you using the focus peaking on the camera's LCD to confirm focus when pulling focus with the Aputure?

Yes. I have a Tarion viewfinder that I keep in my pocket that helps a lot with magnifying. But I find that my Tokina, which I bought second hand, is soft when set to infinity when the aputure is wide. It is very sharp around F8, and at that point 11mm or even 16mm everything is in focus, so you find that you dont need to pull focus much.

I just finished a days shoot with the Zhiyun Crane, and it is impressive. I ha the Came Mini 2 before, an swore to never use gimbals again because it was so cumbursome and finicky that you end up leaving it at home.

But I bit the bullet and got the crane because the price was right and I simply need a steady/shot system for some parts of my work.

So in summary...

The batteries lasted for 4 hours pretty much being constantly on. I would say you are safely within 3 hours of continuous use. Then you pop in the spares and good to go.

It is solid and sturdy, and when it goes nuts due to doing something silly, just switch off an on and its like nothng ever happened. Not like the Mini which punishes your horizons for being rough with it.

Yes, it can take a Tokina 11 to 16 WITH a speedbooster... in this instance it I used a Aputure LensRegain, so it is a speedbooster with a transmiter where I can control focus and aputure with a grip, and I had a lanc going into the GH4 so the rip can also stop and start recording. You basically never need to touch the camera unless you want to zoom or twst the Vari ND.

So tokina with metabones is likely to work as this was a heavy set up. I tried to add a Rode videomic pro Rycote and that tip it over the edge and it started getting jiggy with it. All shots were steady as anyone elses on youtube, but it helps if you have experience balancing more finicky gimbals as you know which axis you will need the most for you shot and you make sure that one has the least resistance, as it never properly balances  when switched off. You gotta have faith and switch it on and viola.

Anyways, I would recommend...

Sorry for the bad grammer but my laptop keyboard is speaking another language and microsoft just shrugs  when I ask it for help.

On 22/08/2016 at 11:40 PM, HelsinkiZim said:

E.G. British crime drama like The Fall, Happy Valley or River - or American drama like Transparent, Bloodline, OITNB, - or even international capers like The Last Panthers and Top of the Lake. (Most recent binge was Strange Things - it was like the homage to Spielberg that Abrams wanted to make with Super 8 - but much better with its odes to Serendipity and The Goonies!).

*I meant Serenity not Serendipity, which was a millennial Cusack vehicle when he was the quick-talking leading man to many a beautiful bevy. The original Jesse Eisenburg, without the creepy factor. Actually, I liked the flick. I like John Cusack, actually..

18 minutes ago, Hans Punk said:

 

Since TV became popular in the 1950's, cinema has been playing catch up to lure back its audience...employing cinemascope, Todd AO and other large format experiences to give people sights and sounds that they simply could not get at home on their square black and white box. Now, an average home cinema setup can deliver image and sound fidelity that is light years ahead of any developments made in mass cinema presentation. A bluray is not a huge jump in quality from a theatrically mastered DCP, even 4K projection does not 'wow' the general audience enough to book a babysitter, drive 10 miles and spend a premium on ticket prices.

3D/4D/IMAX/HFR are all recent examples of cinemas trying to offer an experience that can not be mimicked at home...at least not as well.

But we are in a time now where the quantity (or quality) of content for theatrical 'experiences' are not prevalent enough to warrant expensive overhauls in laser projection systems or a return to the days when a screening would physically be at a larger scale - before auditoriums got sliced up into multi screen multiplexes. This can be seen as a marker of when cinema started to be downscaled and be made to rival the revenue from competing home-based media (VHS/BETA etc).

Hollywood (for the most part) are still milking the udders of the comic book movie cash cow. Often with clear intentions of shaping movies to appeal to the chinese market....the days of breakout summer blockbusters such as Die Hard, Jaws, E.T are over (at least for now)...we are currently at the mercy of money men making and marketing movies, the theatrical experience is never a priority, they are looking at cross platform revenue to a rigorously test audience approved demographic. They are selling Pepsi and Happy meals.

The few stand out films of recent memory are from Nolan, Tarantino, Cuarón - where they used their weight to push for a more 'throwback' cinematic experience...big screens, large formats...for content they shot to purposely be shown in that way. We need more of this...with strong stories that really impact the viewer when viewed on a 60ft screen.

Lots of talent can be seen on TV these days, often giving audiences an opportunity of immersion into characters and situations over a season or run of seasons. But this is what film used to be able to achieve in under 2 hours!....before those scripts got dropped in development, over simplistic fighting robot stories. The talent is there, it's just made a nest in TV land until general audiences get tired of the same old shit being spoon fed to them. There seems to be backlash already happening with DC films of late, but annoyingly these films can 'flop' yet still make a billion dollars. Unfortunatly 150 x 1 million dollar indie films are not as an appealing prospect for a big studio to greenlight, as their opening weekend gross of a flagship franchise is what the business has become. 150 x 1 million dollar films would be what you could commision from one blockbuster film's budget - imagine the breakout films that you would (by the law of averages) uncover...maybe the next spielberg and Kubrick. I totally understand why some Directors are migrating to TV, they are simply following the audience shift that would have once been able to see that directors interesting work on a silver screen, but is now seemingly harder to do so. Sometimes this can be liberating for director and story to have a longer run than the 3 act restrictions of the feature film construct.

I am totally hopeful that cinema will get its audience back...and win one over the streaming generation (if there is even one). It's hard to tell when the wheel will turn, but I have hope. There is a great opportunity to be had by both co-existing, but at the moment TV is kicking the ass of most hollywood releases in terms of character development, story and original tone....often because it is not trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator, but rather capture an audience and keep it loyal -  the values of what used to make mainstream cinema great. Modern TV offerings often have comparable production values (and often star power) as that of feature films, often with lower budgets, which seemingly also make for an under reliance on visual effects to support a story - this can often lead to tasteful implementation of effects and used sparingly to support an interesting story. This reminds me of the good old early 90's where CGI was really hard and expensive to produce, so often only used sparingly to great effect....Jurassic Park,T2,Abyss etc.

On the flip side, I sometimes wish Nolan, Tarantino, Cameron etc will stop lording their aesthetics and presentation methods - and simply make more engaging films to the viewer. If Nolan wants to retain the glory days of large format film acquisition and presentation - great, just give me a story with characters I give a shit about first. 3D blue elves in the next 100 Avatar films I would be excited about seeing in 3D IMAX, if I thought it was not going to be like watching an animated pocahontas TV show that is tied to a theme park development. Tarantino has already said he will likely retire in the near future and turn to TV...that could be interesting, his short form episodic style obviously works well for the medium (and of course he's done TV before).

So binge-watching may be the new experience for now, I just personally think that is because there has been such a drought from mainstream cinematic offerings, and maybe the audience are so thirsty for story and character...a sizable audience has simply migrated to TV, for how long we will have to wait and see I guess. 

 

 

   

Cinema just got Uber'd.

But seriously, you said what is in my mind and heart in such a well thought out response. I think it surmises everything succinctly.

Nolan, Tarantino, Innaritu, Cuaron have pushed for an 'independent spectacle'. They promise an experience that transcends the technology, but their movies are still essentially super hero movies.

I often ask myself how many people would still rate Gravity, or The Revenant, or even Hateful 8 among their top ten films.

They would make the top ten of each year they were released, but like popcorn, I feel they are mostly air.

Maybe all this disruption in filmmaking technology is going to lead to a collective of young kids (or old pros) who redefine cinema?

57 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

A really good movie to me is something that doesn't dumb down reality to randomness... unless it is some summer tent pole popcorn movie that is there just for fun.  Of course a good movie can't be simplistic either.  It has to be complex but not random.

These kinds of films don't get greenlit in the US anymore. Once in a while you get an exception. It used to be that you could expect a Miramax decent production once a year, but those days are gone. Now the Europeans are leading the way in good cinema, but they cannot get global exposure. For every good european movie on the international radar or that gets remade (Levitian, Blue is the Warmest Colour, Let the right one in etc) - there are many that pass under the radar that everyone here watches. But they have stricter piracy laws and more affluent citizens, so I think Hollywood will be looking to them/ us for box office revenue more and more in the future.

Hence the demise of simplistic formulaic films.

2 hours ago, HelsinkiZim said:

I agree that writers are at the forefront in TV. When the second season of True Crime came out, the penmanship was slaughtered, as is every writer on any TV show that loses its way (*cough* Wayward Pines).

*True Detective

13 minutes ago, Liam said:

sorry if I didn't quite follow, sounded more like film vs tv to me, maybe because binging is the only way I watch shows. It's addictive, just not as worth it as a quality film, I'd say

Keep in mind I said I was embarrassed that I watch Pretty Little Liars

No, you simplified my convoluted hypothesis!

Yes... the question is - do you still enjoy films more than binge watching a series of good TV?

Should have said that in the first place. But I have issues.

Thanks Liam for getting my head outta my butt.

On 17/06/2016 at 5:58 PM, Andrew Reid said:

I've recently had a Video Assist 4K 7"on loan from Blackmagic. Here are some observations on this newcomer to the 4K recorder party.

Read the full review

When do we stop saying 'entry level' and start calling it standard?

What is 'pro' exactly?

Metal casing... works with a Red or Arri... ?

Cannot this do such?

Just now, Geoff CB said:

Fixed it. And no I did not make a commission. For a review I can use 4K footage in resolve with a LUT and multiple layers of A7r 2 footage and playback is clean. I'm not shilling, I honestly think this is a good deal.

Cool beans, just checking

Ages.

That's my mental association with anything Rode service related.

Expect it.

You will be tired and older when your issue is finally resolved.

EDIT: EU customer.

1 hour ago, HelsinkiZim said:

A very fine and much appreciated brain-fart.

Seriously.

That sounds ruder than I meant!