DBounce

20 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Do many people by $2000 cameras off Amazon. I never have.

Why not? They have a great return policy and excellent customer service. 

1 hour ago, Mako Sports said:

Lol I said before it even dropped this system (Panasonic S1/S1R) will not sell with its current pricing.

The only brand thats able to over charge and under value is Canon. 

Leica ?

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I notice the EOS-R you have and the Z6 are not on that list either.  The Sony a7 III was. You aren't going to have many 2,000 Dollar cameras on a top 100 list on Amazon.

I noticed that you missed that the Canon EOS R is #11 on that list and the Nikon Z6 is #18.

This is Amazon's data... not mine. I'm just a messenger.

Word on the grapevine is that the Panasonic full frame cameras are a total flop sales wise. This rumor is also supported by taking a quick peek at Amazon's full frame mirrorless cameras sales rankings. The Panasonic S1 and R are nowhere to be seen on the top 100 list. Expect price drops... but even then,  it's a big gamble that Panasonic took by releasing these bodies without PDAF. For most hybrid shooters reliable AF is a "must have" option. 

56 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

 

I predict that the 360 camera will eventually revolutionize the way how video is shot. It will replace all of these action and stabilized cameras. Picture an interview scene where you only need one camera that sits between the interviewer and subject. I think once they get good enough it’s going to be huge. 

1 hour ago, Nikkor said:

I have a lot of medium format lenses (if you don't need AF or extreme wideangle, it's a cheap alternative), but 10k is too much for me right now... Let's see the rolling shutter.

For me it would have to really be special. If neither one blows me away, I’m not investing the $20k or so to enter into the system. I just do this stuff for fun.

Rolling shutter might be less than ideal... but maybe not as bad as we think.

14 hours ago, Nikkor said:

It's going to cost atleast 10k, right?

Most likely... plus lenses.

The Osmo Action is a pass for me also. I just can't get behind that image quality. The stabilization tech is promising though. 

1 hour ago, frontfocus said:

i know. But what technology does DJI bring into this relationship? They don't have IBIS, no experience with phase detection. They may contribute to save a few bucks with their processors or a few parts. 
But all in all I think Hasselblads main interest was to get a name they can print onto their drones and sell at a premium. I don't see much, they can add to the way Hasselblad work at the moment.
I may be wrong and we see a X1D II made in China soon? 

I doubt you'll see it made in China, they are currently hand made in Sweden iirc.  But DJI does have extensive experience with stabilization, so who knows what we will see? It will be interesting in any case.  It will likely be going head to head against the Fuji.

2 hours ago, frontfocus said:

I haven't followed what Hasselblad does as closely, is there a X2D/X1D 100c announcement around the corner?

Thinking about hardware, I don't see Hasselblad compete. I don't think they will manage to get their own IBIS (but maybe they will licence it from Sony or Nikon since they already went with Nikons lighting hotshoe) or get anywere close in focus performance. 
But I expect the Hasselblad to be as well built as the X1D, one of the nicest cameras besides a Leica M one can probably buy. 

If I had anything to say at Fujifilm, I'd put in an anamorphic mode into that beast. ?

You do know that Hasselblad is owned by DJI?

@JrtehI parted with the Z6 for the Canon  EOS R.

With the pending announcement of the new Fuji GFX100 only a week and change away, it looks like we now have a detailed sensor spec sheet.

So what are your thoughts on this new model? Also, how do you think it will compare to the upcoming Hasselblad?

I’m considering one of these bodies... mainly for stills with some video.

1 hour ago, Jordan Drake said:

Gordon Laing has done a really fantastic video-specific look at the S1/S1R. Worth a watch:

 

There's a lot to like about the Panasonic S1. Still it's a hard sell. I feel like we are on the threshold of some major announcements from Canon and Sony, with new sensors and bodies likely coming before years end.

18 minutes ago, MeanRevert said:

Looks to me the image stabilization and front selfie are the best features. Image quality is not as good as hero 7 black though. 

To my eyes iq is better than the GoPro. That said, I'm not sure I would buy one. I already have the Osmo Pocket. 

9 minutes ago, Adam Kuźniar said:

I'd think that a smaller sensor means less data means easier EIS.

Sure, smaller sensor may mean less data, but that said and done it's still writing 100 Mb/s in 4k @60 fps and a larger body means more room for computing hardware.

So steady, this is truly the future of image stabilization. Forget IBIS, if this tech can be incorporated into cameras of this size, there is no reason it cannot be added to much larger dedicated cameras. Also, in the video he uses De-Warp. I've never heard of this before, but that should be automatically applied in any camera. Honestly, none of the footage really seemed to suffer from warping, so I'm not sure why he chose to use it on the one clip... perhaps just to show he could?

Here it is... first full review:

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Look at the images from this and tell me it isn't worth $700.

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-zhong-yi-mitakon-50mm-0-95-iii/

Or put your money where your mouth is and pay Leica prices.

Seriously, did you look at the hexagonal bokeh of this lens? 

How about edge sharpness, which doesn’t actually get anywhere near sharp until stopped down to F5.6?

Flare resistance? Or should I say lack of?

Longitudinal CA is also an issue with this lens... and is not so easy to correct in post.

I think all this example proves is that the Chinese lens offers an impressive sounding spec sheet (50mm F 0.95) but falls short on optical performance. So hence the lower price point. Compare this to the ZEISS Loxia 50mm f/2, which is fully weather sealed, usable F2, electronics for  Exif data to camera, user de-clickable with a 3 year warranty (vs 1 year ) for only $949 brand new, and I would say only a fool would opt for the Chinese lens. But that’s just my take.

@Andrew Reid there you go getting all political. I’ll address that later. As for quality goods being made in China, I pointed out at least two examples... Aputure and IPhone. I could add DJI and maybe a few more. But that doesn’t change the fact that QC leaves much room for improvement in China. 

In this post my initial question was one of the overall quality of goods. I can’t think of any Chinese original lenses that rival Zeiss or Leica. But yet some here seem to take this loyalty to China as a cause. Why? Did they forget that The Peoples Republic of China is a communist state, not a democracy? Did they overlook the overwhelming reports of human rights abuses? Do they believe this is all made up? Perhaps they do not realize that all advancements made by outside companies are mandated to be shared with the Chinese military first? Or that when it comes to IP in China, it’s not merely a case of single employee stealing technology, but in fact the government has entire departments devoted to stealing IP from  outside companies.

The West rewarded The People’s Republic of China with lucrative trade deals in hopes they would become a democracy (the opposite of what was successfully done with the USSR)... Update... it didn’t work. The People’s Republic of China is still communist. Indeed one of the reasons manufacturing is so cheap in China is because they are perfectly ok with exposing the population and workforce to hazardous chemicals and pollutants. Go China... yeah!

The Digital Bolex regularly fetches considerable more than it's new price.

1 hour ago, Django said:

This is simply untrue. Almost all Sony cams are made in China, A9 is made in Thailand. Nikon D850 is made in Thailand. Panasonic GH5, S1 etc made in China.

Fuji XT3: made in China. Previous XT series were made in Japan. big quality control drop and a lot of issues on the MiC XT3.

Only Canon still makes a large part of their cams in Japan, including the affordable EOS RP.

Nikon did produce the Z series in their Sendai factory which hardly produced any cameras except for D5 & DF. So kudos to them!

Thailand China? Wait, what? X-T3 is a flagship camera? Ya think? Got rid of my Panasonics awhile ago,  so I can't check. I do recall seeing made in Japan... but perhaps that was the lenses. Not that those are flagships at this point. Nonetheless, I'm pretty certain the S1 is also made in China. So perhaps Panasonic is the exception. That said I had no issues with my Panasonics... so they would be one of the hits... X-T3 more of a miss in my experience. 

10 minutes ago, kye said:

Trees are:

1. Do not exist
2. Only exist in a parallel universe

DBounce:

1. Is a robot
2. Is an alien

This thread:

1. Doesn't exist
2. Is invisible

Everyone is:

1. A murderer
2. A mass murderer

etc...

Your example make no sense. I merely ask which statement more closely reflects the subject’s view. 

And btw... you still haven’t answered. 

10 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

My view of Chinese gear has changed significantly over the last ten and even five years. Ten years ago it very much was "well, you get what you paid for." Things were cheaply made and would often fall apart. 

That started to change around five years ago. It was around then that you really started to see high quality stuff coming out of Japan. I think you can kinda of trace the change with the quality of GoPro knock offs, because those were the first things I really noticed people giving positive feedback on. The first ones were garbage, but around 2014/2015 you started to hear about Yi and SJCAM putting out good quality ones. Also around that time you started to see lights coming out of China that were comparable to much more expensive lighting, and then the flood gates kinda opened with quality budget options for everything from mics to gimbals. 

In many ways it has killed the DIY filmmaking scene. I remember when people would carry around DIY light set ups to shoots; they'd go all out trying to make them look as professional as possible. Now everyone has affordable Chinese lights. It's kinda sad, cause the DIY era was the most fun era for me. But it's hard to justify spending hours building a light panel when you can buy some that cost less than the parts you'd need to make your own. 

Seems cameras and lenses are the next phase. That first Z-Cam wasn't particularly impressive, but the second one and their cinema cameras are. I think the Pocket4K really kinda stole their thunder though. 

Still there's a lot of garbage coming out of China. I don't stray far from the recognizable companies making stuff there. 

So like I said, there are some higher quality exceptions... but lots of crap also. iPhone is made in China... Aputure makes great lights... and I pointed out that high quality products can be made anywhere... but Chinese quality is often hit or miss. 

57 minutes ago, kye said:

There is a component of economic development involved with manufacturing, I can't find what it's called (I'm sure it'll have a name) but it goes basically like this:

• Country decides it needs foreign investment to contribute to economic development
• It creates a policy (potentially linked to a limited geographic area) that provides incentives for foreign investment, often waiving things like taxes, regulations or minimum wage restrictions, and potentially guaranteeing investments
• Foreign investment starts and due to the cheap labor force, low cost manufacturing plants are created
• These plants produce relatively low quality goods, through a combination of low-levels of initial investment in the quality of the machinery, low cost low quality raw materials, low quality workmanship due to a largely uneducated workforce
• Over time the workforce builds a skill base and quality improves
• Investment results in economic development and benefits to the host country
• Over time another country sees this economic development benefit and starts it's own process, special waivers may lapse, workers may unionise, etc
• Assuming there is profit being made then the level of quality is raised such that they differentiate their products from the new competition
• If they don't want to raise the quality level of production then they move the operation to the new competitor country and start over again

Japan was once the poor-quality cheaper competitor to the US, but caught up, China came after Japan, which is what this thread is about, but has long since caught up, many other asian countries came after that, and over the coming decades you will start to hear about African nations getting in on this act as well.

This is an interesting list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technology_centers

In terms of the premise of your original multiple choice question, here's a question of my own:

1. The question is inherently racially biased and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"
2. The question is inherently logically skewed and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"

Pick one.

Easy, I pick option two. 

Yes it’s a trap. A trap to get an honest opinion without the politically correct nonsense. If you genuinely believe that quality wise and optically Chinese lenses and cameras are better than their Japanese counterparts... regardless of price, then just vote option “B”. It’s that simple.

Now here’s the difference between you and I... trap or not, I voted in your example. I’m a free thinker with independent thought, so I will give my opinion without fear. I really wish more here would grow a spine. 

34 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Before the Chinese and after the Japanese were the Koreans..

When I was growing up Korean cars were a joke. Hyundai Accent anyone?

Now Kia/Hyundai have some of the biggest warranty in the industry and are toping all surveys and customer satisfaction questionnaires.

Do you know what are the lowest of the low? Germans! Mercedes/BMW/Mini/Porsche/VW/Skoda(VW group) are giving the lowest warranty in industry - 2 years, while most give 5 with some restriction in miles - and Kia 7, Hyundai 5 - but with truly unlimited miles, the only one, and Ford Europe recently announced 8 years (I am not sure if that took effect already) and Toyota announced 6 years.

In my country's owners satisfaction survey the last ones,  are: 

Audi 61.5

BMW-Mini 50.5

VW 49.7

First ones?

Kia 95.1

Mazda 95

Alfa Romeo 94.7 (Alfisti are fanatics about their cars here, it is a way of life!)

Hyundai 94.6

So, no German cars for me!

I might be way off mark, but where I live no one is impressed when you explain that you drive an Hyundai. For some reason Porsche carries more prestige. 

I too recall "Made In Japan" being regarded as a joke in the western world. Here is what Japan did to turn around the perceived quality of their products. It's something that has yet to happen on any large scale in China. I'm sorry if historical facts are considered racist... How many here would choose to drop the same money... for the same specs, on "say a Chinese Leica competitor" (assuming one was available)? I can't imagine many would opt for a Chinese Arri equivalent... if the cost and specs were identical? Why then, to choose the Chinese option, do we require a better price? I'm guessing it's because there is an assumption that the quality will not be as good... therefore a tradeoff is made of a better spec sheet.

Is this "racist"? Was it "racist" when the same was true of "Made In Japan" ? How did the Japanese solve this problem? Sensitivity training? I'm just a messenger. 

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

The Only reason now that what you call Junk comes out of China is that a country wanted it to the cheapest ass thing you can produce, hence Junk. Not China's fault, just obeying orders as they say.

Sure years ago China was associated as producing Junk, but guess what when I was young Japan did the same shit. Just a bunch of junk, cheap toys is all that Japan imported, at least to the USA. I think this poll proves you are racist as hell to be honest. You just come across like a total uninformed Jackass. There are certainly people that are on here from China. To lump them into some pile of uneducated people building crap is a slap in the face. You ought to have your ass beat. Grow the Fuck up!

Some young people on here are stupid as shit about history. It is at times F ing embarrassing on here to hear such idiotic shit. Go the hell away.

Oh the race card... how original. But yet you didn’t answer the question. I’ll take that as another vote for “A”.

When it comes to optics I do prefer Japanese to Chinese and German to Japanese. There is no Chinese car I would buy today.

Understand, I make no claim that high quality products cannot be produced in China, but more often than not, it’s cheaply made alternatives that come out of China. NONE of the flagship cameras from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic or Fuji are produced in China. None of their Premiums lenses are produced in China. As I usually only buy premium products, I naturally end up with Japanese or German produced items for the most part.

If this comes off as “racist”... seek therapy.